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rangerfromthenorth
Rivendell
Jun 30 2014, 4:13pm
Post #1 of 27
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Gollum's account of Sauron
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As I prepare for the upcoming symposium I have been doing "research" which means reading through all three Lotr books. I came across this exchange between Frodo and Gollum and I am curious for any thoughts on it:
`That would be Minas Ithil that Isildur the son of Elendil built ' said Frodo. `It was Isildur who cut off the finger of the Enemy.'
`Yes, He has only four on the Black Hand, but they are enough,' said Gollum shuddering. 'And He hated Isildur's city.'
So did Gollum see the incarnated Sauron when he was tortured?
Perhaps he saw the Wraith version of Sauron?
If it his incarnated body, why could Sauron not, upon reconstituting himself in the flesh, repair the lose of his finger.
then of course there is the irony of Frodo also losing one of his fingers when the Ring is destroyed.
Not all those who wander are lost
(This post was edited by rangerfromthenorth on Jun 30 2014, 4:16pm)
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 30 2014, 4:42pm
Post #2 of 27
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I really can't see a spiritual Sauron missing a finger, so he would be corporeal.
Gollum's other comments are little clues to something: if one hand is the Black Hand, what color is the other?
When he says the four fingers "are enough," is that because Sauron personally tortured Gollum, twisting a thumb screw or whatever?
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PhantomS
Rohan
Jun 30 2014, 4:54pm
Post #3 of 27
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perhaps Sauron's ring finger cannot grow back as it was closest to the Ring and was severed along with the Ring when Isildur removed the One. Another theory is maybe Sauron keeps his ring finger from growing back to remind himself his ring is missing?
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Jun 30 2014, 5:48pm
Post #4 of 27
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Curious..
Is it mentioned anywhere that it was Sauron's RING finger?perhaps Sauron's ring finger cannot grow back
"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
-Albert Einstein
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jun 30 2014, 6:17pm
Post #5 of 27
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What's a "ring finger," Precioussss?
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In common speech, a "ring finger" is the fourth, maybe specifically the fourth on the left hand (where in many countries at least wedding rings go). But in the LotR movies Aragorn wore the Ring of Barahir on his forefinger, and the few times Frodo put on the Ring it was on a forefinger.
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Jun 30 2014, 6:18pm)
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rangerfromthenorth
Rivendell
Jun 30 2014, 6:38pm
Post #6 of 27
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surely it is a reference to the finger he wore the Ring on
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and I think is probably not the traditional ring finger, imagine a sword cutting off just that one finger in the middle, near impossible one would think.
Not all those who wander are lost
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Felagund
Rohan
Jun 30 2014, 7:21pm
Post #7 of 27
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"long corruption and expenditure of will"
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In the "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" chapter of The Silmarillion, its says:
"But Sauron was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own."
This strongly suggests that it was the ring-finger that was severed by Isildur.
On the lack of regeneration, drawing from Gollum's recollection of the Black Hand, my view is that this is to do with the side-effects of Sauron's corruption. Tolkien explicitly and implicitly links corruption with degradation, both spiritual and physical. Morgoth is the prima facie case: the expenditure of his personal spiritual power in order to dominate the world around him led to a gradual decline in his stature. He lost his ability to walk 'unclad' in the Unseen world, and to change shape not long after his theft of the Silmarils ("Of the Darkening of Valinor", The Sil). Morgoth's inability to recover from the wounds inflicted on him by Fingolfin was, I suggest, a similar symptom. The post-LotR essay "Myths Transformed" (Morgoth's Ring) is also illustrative:
"Sauron was 'greater', effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First. Why? Because, though he was far smaller by natural stature, he had not yet fallen so low. Eventually he also squandered his power (of being) in the endeavour to gain control of others. But he was not obliged to expend so much of himself. To gain domination over Arda, Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth..."
The same essay also describes the corrosive effect of corruption on Maiar, including Sauron, and indeed "any creature that took him [Morgoth] for Lord". Such individuals, and by 'creature' I take this to mean Man or Maia or Orc, "became soon corrupted in all parts of its being, the fëa dragging down the hröa in its descent into Morgothism: hate and destruction."
Another useful exhibit is the impact on Sauron's regenerative capabilities following his two 'deaths'. Caught up in the cataclysm that claimed Númenor, Sauron's spirit escaped but could "never again appear fair in the eyes of Men" (Akallabêth). Following his second 'death', at the end of the War of the Last Alliance, regeneration appeared to have been even more difficult - "he took no visible shape again for many long years" ("Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age").
The oft-quoted Letter #246 is also a useful guide, and is the source for my post's title: Sauron is described there as being "weakened by long corruption and expenditure of will in dominating inferiors..."
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Jun 30 2014, 7:43pm
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"But Sauron was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own."
This strongly suggests that it was the ring-finger that was severed by Isildur. What am I missing here? The above quote suggests NO particular finger.
I tend to agree with Ranger & Elizabeth – we’re probably not talking about “today’s” ring-finger (the one next to the little-finger) but the finger on which The Ring was worn.
"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
-Albert Einstein
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Felagund
Rohan
Jun 30 2014, 8:17pm
Post #9 of 27
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To get the One Ring off, Isildur appears to have severed Sauron's ring-finger. A quick google reveals a long, grim history of battlefield looting, where victors and scavengers would chop off fingers to get at rings - easier than trying to pull them off, apparently. Rigor mortis presumably doesn't make it practical.
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Jun 30 2014, 9:00pm
Post #10 of 27
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In your quote above I assumed (apparently incorrectly) you were talking about a “particular” finger when the statement says that Isildur cut the Ring from the “hand” of Sauron.
You apparently assumed that I didn’t know that Isildur cut the Ring from Sauron’s finger/hand, which we have mostly agreed was whichever finger he wore it on. (Nice sentence structure, huh?) 
"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
-Albert Einstein
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MimMoco
Registered User
Jul 1 2014, 2:22am
Post #11 of 27
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Maybe all the fingers on the ring hand were severed
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I doubt the hilt-shard of Narsil as swung by Isildur was accurate enough to slice just one finger in combat; such that it is probable that all the fingers (less the thumb) were separated from the hand and Sauron had no ability to regenerate or reattach any of them. Thus the 4 fingers Gollum is referring to are what is left on the other hand, less the thumb.
Sauron in his near corporal state was no doubt very talented in extracting information form Gollum with the 4 fingers remaining.
No matter where you go...there you are.
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Morthoron
Gondor
Jul 1 2014, 2:30am
Post #12 of 27
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Lords typically wore their signet rings on the forefinger....
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Important lords and church prelates wore their great rings on their forefingers (often worn over rather than under a glove). The reason is practical: the rings were embossed with the baronial or ducal seal (or the papal seal or a specific bishopric), and this they would impress in wax on important missives, thus leaving their mark. It would be difficult or clumsy if they wore such a ring on what we refer to as the "ring finger".
Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.
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HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell
Jul 1 2014, 2:38am
Post #13 of 27
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Morgoth's limp and long-term rehab....
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You make an excellent point here.
Fingolfin severed part of Morgoth's foot with his sword Ringil during their battle, and Morgoth walked with a limp forever afterward. The eagle Thorondor also scarred Morgoth's face and he never healed from that attack either.
If corruption prevented Morgoth, who was a Valar from regenerating, this would indicate that a lesser power such as Sauron would suffer a similar fate as he squandered his innate power into his dominion over the world.
In the Sil, it says that Morgoth remained forever in pain after his injuries. I wonder whether Sauron also remained in pain due to having his finger severed.
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jul 1 2014, 5:29am
Post #14 of 27
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The forefinger is pretty easy to isolate.
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I agree with Morthoron's observation that the forefinger is the most probable place to wear it (I was trying to suggest this in my post above). And the hilt shard should be able to cut off a forefinger pretty easily.
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jul 1 2014, 11:39am
Post #15 of 27
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a different quest option: chop off all if sauron's fingers and toes and he cannot wield the ring. unless he reforges it into as bracelet. then cutting off sauron's arms would be the next objective.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jul 1 2014, 12:50pm
Post #16 of 27
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Sauron is a person too, you know.
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rangerfromthenorth
Rivendell
Jul 1 2014, 2:54pm
Post #17 of 27
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he not only lost his finger, he also lost it as it bore the Ring causing his physical destruction. If i remember correctly, Isildur's hand was burned or maimed in taking the Ring because of its power, i am sure the loss of the Ring on that finger probably increased its pain for Sauron.
Not all those who wander are lost
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Jul 1 2014, 3:46pm
Post #18 of 27
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. . .said Frodo, “It was Isildur who cut off the finger of the Enemy”. (Bk. IV, Ch. 3) At least Frodo thought it was a SINGLE finger (for whatever that’s worth).
Nevertheless the Gil-endil Convention of S.A. 3441 explicitly states that:Thou shalt not desecrate the body of the dead unnecessarily; e.g. to whack off the foot of a deceased body to retrieve an ankle bracelet is seemly; but to whack off the foot of a deceased body for the sheer pleasure of it is forbidden. (Article XII, Section IV, Amendment XXI.)
"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
-Albert Einstein
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MimMoco
Registered User
Jul 1 2014, 7:11pm
Post #19 of 27
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Oh yes! I had forgotten the Gil-endil Convention of S.A. 3441
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Most ME scholars gloss over this section as it is buried with in the Gil-endil Convention of S.A. 3440
First shalt thou take out the Blessed Pin. Then, shalt thou count to three. No more. No less. Three shalt be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once at the number three, being the third number to be reached, then, lobbest thou thy Blessed Hand Grenade of Numenor towards thy foe, who, being naughty for the whacking of excessive body parts for sheer pleasure, shall snuff . (Article XI, Section V, Amendment XXII.)
No matter where you go...there you are.
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Jul 1 2014, 9:39pm
Post #21 of 27
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And thou hast used up all thy "shalts" for this post.
Thou can'st useth no more "shalts".   
"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
-Albert Einstein
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Kim
Valinor
Jul 1 2014, 10:09pm
Post #23 of 27
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What was the name of his other hand? //
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"Jagatud rõõm on topelt rõõm - a shared joy is a double joy". ~Estonian saying
“As such, you will address His Majesty as His Majesty, the Lord of Silver Fountains, the King of Carven Stone, the King Beneath the Mountain, the Lion of Erebor, the High King of the Dwarves, the True Treasure of Erebor, the Face that Launched 10,000 Sighs, or Thorin the Majestic..."
http://newboards.theonering.net/...forum_view_collapsed
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Meneldor
Valinor
Jul 1 2014, 10:19pm
Post #24 of 27
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They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters; These see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep.
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ElendilTheShort
Gondor
Jul 3 2014, 1:46am
Post #25 of 27
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the sword swing is a movie invention
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Sauron was all but dead and prone on the ground due to injuries inflicted by Elendil & Gil-galad when Isildur cut the ring from his finger.
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= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
Lor bless ye MimMoco
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