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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
what was dior's fate?

Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 29 2014, 4:52am

Post #1 of 24 (1487 views)
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what was dior's fate? Can't Post

 
what was dior's fate? he died before the valar made their pronouncement that the half-elven could choose their fates.

does everyone wind up in the halls of mandos? i suppose dior could have chosen posthumously.


cheers --


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Jun 29 2014, 5:57pm

Post #2 of 24 (1317 views)
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Hmmm [In reply to] Can't Post

Even if Dior hadn’t died I don’t know if he would have had the choice of the Half-elven, or even if he would be called “Half-elven”.
He was half-man, ¼ Maia, and ¼ Elf.

Some help huh? Wink

"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
-Albert Einstein


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 29 2014, 7:22pm

Post #3 of 24 (1304 views)
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My guess [In reply to] Can't Post

Since Earendil and Elwing chose immortality and Elfness and were subsequently sundered from mortals, my guess is that Dior, having chosen to be an Elf-king and have an Elf-wife, was counted in the Valar's census as an Elf. If he went where Men go, he wouldn't spend eternity with Nimloth, and the choice seems to involve marital pairs.


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Jun 29 2014, 10:18pm

Post #4 of 24 (1292 views)
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But, but.. [In reply to] Can't Post

 Earendil WAS half Elven, and Elwing was more than half Elven.

But Dior was only one-quarter Elf. Would becoming the King of Doriath and having an Elf-wife allow him full Elf status or even Half-elven status, and given The Choice?

He was also one-quarter Maia – Ah, I won’t go there? (But where does it start/end?)

"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
-Albert Einstein


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 29 2014, 10:38pm

Post #5 of 24 (1288 views)
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If you consider Luthien [In reply to] Can't Post

She was half-Maia, and was destined to have the fate of an Elf. Why? The Elves didn't seem to feel they had "lost" her until she took a mortal fate with Beren. Hence, they didn't think from birth that she had a Maia destiny and was separate from them, and for that matter, she was able to die and go to the Halls of Mandos as an Elf. So I conclude Dior's Maia blood was secondary to his Elvish blood in determining his fate just as Luthien's was.


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 29 2014, 10:53pm

Post #6 of 24 (1282 views)
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not quite biologically maia [In reply to] Can't Post

 
melain was a maia, but maiar did not have any native form... no physical biology. they were said to clad themselves in the forms of the physical world, including the forms of the children of illuvatar. so melain didn't have any maiar genes to contribute to luthien. i think she was all-elf, biologically speaking.

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Elthir
Grey Havens

Jun 29 2014, 11:31pm

Post #7 of 24 (1277 views)
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Pereldar [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Even if Dior hadn’t died I don’t know if he would have had the choice of the Half-elven, or even if he would be called “Half-elven”.



We can at least say that he was called Half-elven in any case: 'Dior their son, it is said, spoke both tongues: his father’s, and his mother’s, the Sindarin of Doriath. For he said: “I am the first of the Peredhil (Half-elven); but I am also the heir of King Elwe, the Eluchil.”

The Peoples of Middle-earth, The Problem of Ros, a late text

Of course Tolkien wrote 'most of this fails' on this text in general, but that was because ros could not be a Beorian word [which the new text was about], because of already published Andros being Sindarin... which does not affect this passage about Dior.


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Jun 29 2014, 11:39pm

Post #8 of 24 (1269 views)
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But, but.. [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
so melain didn't have any maiar genes to contribute to luthien. i think she was all-elf, biologically speaking.


Biologically speaking Melian DID have Maiar blood biologically in Beleriand. She had abilities that no Man or Elf possessed. E.g. The Girdle of Melian. Some of these genes/powers must have passed on to Luthien.

And Olorin the Maia had abilities that no Man nor Elf had as an Istari. in Middle-earth.
No the Maiar did not lose their powers (completely) on arrival in Middle-earth.

But we drift from the OPs query on Dior. Ah, well....
different strokes for different folks. Smile

"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
-Albert Einstein


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 30 2014, 1:40am

Post #9 of 24 (1268 views)
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He converted to Christianity [In reply to] Can't Post

and started a fashion line. Christian Dior, of course, will never die.

Oh, wait, this isn't a conspiracy theory thread, is it?


cats16
Half-elven


Jun 30 2014, 5:56am

Post #10 of 24 (1246 views)
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I knew you'd come through on this one. // [In reply to] Can't Post

Laugh


PhantomS
Rohan


Jun 30 2014, 5:57am

Post #11 of 24 (1247 views)
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his essence is in perfumes and handbags worldwide [In reply to] Can't Post

he lived and died as the Lord of Doriath who wore a Silmaril, so it's most likely he would be judged as an Elf like his grandfather Thingol. Similarly Tuor lived and died in the company of Elves and was accounted as one of them despite being a man born from Men.


HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell


Jul 1 2014, 3:06am

Post #12 of 24 (1238 views)
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Dior Eluchil [In reply to] Can't Post

Eluchil means heir of Elu. Given that Thingol made Dior his heir, I would count Dior among the Elven folk. Otherwise, why would Thingol name a mortal heir? Would Thingol turn over his kingdom to a mortal who would live no more than several decades? I doubt that would be the case.


Maciliel
Valinor


Jul 1 2014, 3:15am

Post #13 of 24 (1245 views)
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that probably wasn't the case from the get-go [In reply to] Can't Post

 
that probably wasn't the case from the get-go.

an infant-toddler-child-adolescent-young adult dior might not have given any indication during those early years if he was mortal or elven.

another point that conflicts with his elven-lot... when he was conceived and born, luthien had already cast her lot with mortals, and had already died (and come back). it seems incongruous that she would have been able to hand down her "elven fate" to dior, since no other (half) elven who cast their lots with mortals had progeny that were allowed to choose. none of the descendants of elros were allowed the choice. his choice stood for all of them. arwen's children were not allowed that choice. she cast her lot with the mortal aragorn, and the choice was removed for her descendants.

tolkien students... what does tolkien say in his recherche writings about the fate of dior -- mortal or elven, and why?


this strikes me as one of those loose threads that tolkien never quite snipped.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell


Jul 1 2014, 1:07pm

Post #14 of 24 (1236 views)
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The choice had to be made early... [In reply to] Can't Post

According to the Encyclopedia of Arda (one of the great Tolkien resources that I recommend), Dior was born First Age 470 and died FA 509, which meant he was at least 38 years old when he was slain in the kin-slaying. Thingol was slain in FA 502, which meant Dior took throne shortly thereafter at the relatively young age of 32. So the decision to make him an heir had to come much earlier than that, given that Thingol had no male sons and his only daughter, Luthien, had chosen to be accounted among mortals.


I agree with you that this was a loose end that neither JRR Tolkien nor Christopher Tolkien tied up in the Sil. It would seem odd that Thingol could de facto choose which race Dior would belong to. It is possible Melian may have intervened and through some special dispensation was able to grant immortality to Dior. Maybe he was accounted Elven at birth. We never really know how it happens. However, at some point relatively early in his life, Dior must have been accounted among the Elves. Otherwise, I don't see a viable explanation as to why Thingol would name Dior as his heir given the brief lifespan of Men.


IdrilLalaith
Rivendell


Jul 2 2014, 1:18pm

Post #15 of 24 (1212 views)
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I was going to make this exact point [In reply to] Can't Post

In my opinion, Dior was mortal. It doesn't make sense that Lúthien could have given birth to an immortal. I just don't think any of Dior's contemporaries knew what to do with him.

I'm not sure if this type of (shameless) self-promotion is allowed, but I wrote a blog post on this exact topic: http://tolkienblog.com/...r-elured-and-elurin/ I didn't start out trying to prove that Dior is mortal but I came to that conclusion while I wrote.

From all of the research I did, Tolkien never came to a real conclusion about Dior's fate. The only explicit references is in the Quenta (published in The Shaping of Middle-earth). The statement comes in footnote 4 to section 7 (page 121 in my 1986 Ballantine paperback, if you really want to know). It says the Eärendil, Elwing, Dior, and Elrond shared the fate of the Eldar.

Keep in mind that Elros did not yet exist at this time. Tolkien's conception of the half-Elven deepened and became more complex as time went on. I don't think it's reasonable to take this as canon.

TolkienBlog.com


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jul 2 2014, 2:47pm

Post #16 of 24 (1214 views)
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Dior as mortal? [In reply to] Can't Post

Since Dior was born to Beren and Luthien after they returned from the Houses of the Dead, perhaps he should be considered to have been mortal.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell


Jul 2 2014, 3:14pm

Post #17 of 24 (1198 views)
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If he were mortal... [In reply to] Can't Post

Then who would have replaced him in the succession line after he passed (assuming Doriath continued to exist)? It doesn't make since to me that Thingol would name a mortal as his successor. It would be inexplicable for Elwe Singolo, one of the fathers of the Eldar, to leave his kingdom in the hands of a short-lived mortal.


Also, Dior wore a Silmaril and it is written that no mortal flesh could possess it because they were hallowed by Varda..


He might have been born mortal, but at some point he became immortal, IMO.


HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell


Jul 2 2014, 3:27pm

Post #18 of 24 (1211 views)
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Dior and the Silmaril [In reply to] Can't Post

Dior inherited the Nauglamir from Thingol and I'm sure he wore it. One of the Silmarils was in the Nauglamir. Assuming Dior wore the necklace, then he must have been immortal given that no mortal flesh could hold the gem as it was hallowed by Varda.


Dior, like Earendil and Elwing, had Elvish blood, so that may account for the reason they could hold it and not be immortal (Earendil and Elwing obtained the Silmaril before they were given the chance to become immortal by mandate of the Valar). So one can make a case for a mortal Dior handling the jewel.


This does bring about an interesting contradiction, I guess, if I am correct about Dior being immortal. If Dior were considered Elven by birth (and his wife Nimloth was an Elf), then his daughter Elwing should need not make the choice to be an Elf, no? This can be resolved if Dior made his choice prior to or soon after the birth of Elwing. Then Elwing would be allowed to make her choice when she came of "age." This assumes that Dior made a choice to be an Elf and wasn't born immortal. I would probably go with the hypothesis that Dior was born mortal but was allowed to choose to join the Eldar and become immortal.


(This post was edited by HeWhoArisesinMight on Jul 2 2014, 3:29pm)


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jul 2 2014, 6:53pm

Post #19 of 24 (1205 views)
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Did the Valar (and Tolkien) make it up as they went along? [In reply to] Can't Post

Let's say that Elwing and Earendil didn't make it to Valinor and stayed by the Sirion, or fled southwards, and that the Valar waited another few hundred years to eliminate Morgoth. Would E&E have died mortal deaths before the Valar arrived to determine their fate, or lived as Elves? It seems the issue only came up because they went to Valar-land, so what would have happened to them if they'd never gone? I suspect they'd have the same fate as Dior if he hadn't been killed by the Sons of Feanor, i.e., living as Elves by default, until the Valar started consulting Eru and making up new rules to account for this exception.


IdrilLalaith
Rivendell


Jul 6 2014, 9:53pm

Post #20 of 24 (1170 views)
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In my opinion, they would have died [In reply to] Can't Post

They Valar basically had no contact with Middle-earth between the destruction of the Trees and Eärendil's journey. It seems to me that allowing the Half-elven to choose was a grace the Valar gave them.

For example, if you look at Elrond's children, they weren't given a choice in that they were asked a question and had to give an answer. Rather, they were told that their immortality was based on their father's dwelling in Middle-earth. When he left, they "defaulted" to mortality. In The Silmarillion, Mandos calls Eärendil a mortal. If he's mortal, than it's likely that Dior was also mortal

As to the argument regarding Thingol not appointing a mortal heir, I don't think anyone knew what to do with the Half-elven for a long time. IMO, the son of Lúthien would have had no contest for his inheritance based solely on his mother (who seemed to have been well-loved by her people). Who else would have ruled Doriath after Thingol's death and Melian's departure? Mablung? He seemed to be one of the only lords left by that time. Besides, who can say whether the Elves of Doriath really understood the mortality of Men? Beren and Húrin's family were the only mortals to have entered Doriath. It's quite possible that the inhabitants of Doriath never considered Dior's fate.

TolkienBlog.com


HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell


Jul 7 2014, 4:48pm

Post #21 of 24 (1160 views)
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What of Melian [In reply to] Can't Post

The Elves of Doriath may not have known the fate of Men, but surely Melian did. Even if she did not know the fate of Men after death (as it seems no Ainur did with maybe the exception of Mandos), she had to know that Men died and left the Earth (Arda). If Melian knew, I'm sure Thingol did, although it is conceivable that he might not have given account to how this would affect his succession. Dior lived for a relatively brief time (even briefer in Elvish time), and there might not have been a chance for the Elves to debate what would happen in the case of succession.


I would still wager Thingol had knowledge of the fate of Men. Melian definitely had to know.


IdrilLalaith
Rivendell


Jul 8 2014, 3:42am

Post #22 of 24 (1148 views)
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Point taken [In reply to] Can't Post

Melian should have known at least something about the fate of Men. I guess that still brings me back to the question--who else would have ruled Doriath?

TolkienBlog.com


Maciliel
Valinor


Jul 8 2014, 2:15pm

Post #23 of 24 (1162 views)
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i think it's a huge presumption [In reply to] Can't Post

 
i think it's a huge presumption to say that melian knew the fate of men. i think i recall something in the sil that states that none of the ainur knew... so if the valar did not, why would a maia?

as soon as the edain traveled west into beleriand, pretty much all of elvenkind knew that they aged more rapidly, were more prone to sickness (hence one of their nicknammes, the "engwar"), and died as a natural course of their being (as opposed to dying because they were slain by a foe or mischance).

all the elves of doriath would have known that humans eventually die. i'm not sure they would have known what to make of dior even if they discounted that he was the result of a mixed-race pairing, he certainly was the child of two people who came back from the dead.

dior was thingol's heir because it was the right line of succession.

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


IdrilLalaith
Rivendell


Jul 14 2014, 4:34am

Post #24 of 24 (1168 views)
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I didn't mean to imply [In reply to] Can't Post

That Melian knew where the souls of Men go after death. Rather, I meant that she surely would have known that their fate was different from that of Elves.

TolkienBlog.com

 
 

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