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Vepariga
The Shire
Jun 27 2014, 11:44pm
Post #26 of 60
(481 views)
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Appear as a form of black mass in Saurons shape,like a physical shadow. When he is damaged and defeated he can loose his physical form and revert back to shadow and fade away. That could work, unless his Spirit possesses something to fight with perhaps?
- Vep - Guardsman of the woodland realm of Mirkwood -
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Noria
Gondor
Jun 28 2014, 12:18am
Post #27 of 60
(482 views)
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... the bang for the buck in that showdown is going to be some sort of face-off between Sauron and the White Council :)
I hope it'll be subtle like the confrontation between Sauron and Gandalf in DOS. It felt like a battle of powers without anyone drawing out a sword or using a ring. I liked it.
I don’t envision the White Council and Sauron waving swords at each other.
I imagine and hope for something more psychological, a battle of wills between a still somewhat weak Sauron and the combined members of the Council.
Somebody could actually fight with the Nazgul or any remaining orcs, but not many were strong enough to stand up to the Nine.
And of course Saruman could (and probably will) destroy the fortress with his “devices”.
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J Pierpont Flathead
Rivendell
Jun 28 2014, 12:38am
Post #28 of 60
(493 views)
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...And of course Saruman could (and probably will) destroy the fortress with his “devices”.
It was Galadriel who destroyed Dol Guldur, according to Tolkien.
Now his life is full of wonder
But his heart still knows some fear
Of a simple thing he cannot comprehend
Why they try to tear the mountains down
To bring in a couple more
More people, more scars upon the land
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jun 28 2014, 12:42am
Post #29 of 60
(486 views)
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"Partying" in Hobbiton doesn't mean inattention or lack of concern.
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Gandalf was surely monitoring Sauron all those years, even though he was also keeping an eye on the Shire, communicating with Elrond, Galadriel and the Rangers, occasionally visiting Erebor, Rohan and Gondor and other places, etc. He would hardly have exhibited his concern to the hobbits unnecessarily.
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jun 28 2014, 12:44am
Post #30 of 60
(491 views)
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Saruman helped the White Council drive the Necromancer out of Dol Guldur with his "devices" (which could have meant either strategies or physical devices). Galadriel destroyed Dol Guldur many years later, a few days after Sauron fell in the War of the Ring.
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Jun 28 2014, 12:45am)
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J Pierpont Flathead
Rivendell
Jun 28 2014, 12:59am
Post #31 of 60
(482 views)
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Saruman helped the White Council drive the Necromancer out of Dol Guldur with his "devices" (which could have meant either strategies or physical devices). Galadriel destroyed Dol Guldur many years later, a few days after Sauron fell in the War of the Ring.
Thanks. I suspect then that Jackson will compress that into the last Hobbit film.
Now his life is full of wonder
But his heart still knows some fear
Of a simple thing he cannot comprehend
Why they try to tear the mountains down
To bring in a couple more
More people, more scars upon the land
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jun 28 2014, 1:06am
Post #32 of 60
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... for the hypothetical "War in the North" sequel some day.
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Jun 28 2014, 1:06am)
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J Pierpont Flathead
Rivendell
Jun 28 2014, 1:20am
Post #33 of 60
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JUST when Jackson thought he was OUT, they PULL him back in!
Now his life is full of wonder
But his heart still knows some fear
Of a simple thing he cannot comprehend
Why they try to tear the mountains down
To bring in a couple more
More people, more scars upon the land
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Name
Rohan
Jun 28 2014, 2:33am
Post #34 of 60
(471 views)
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But "monitoring" Sauron for 60 years shouldn't be Gandalf's goal. While Gondor was figuratively "falling appart" he should have been out there helping reestablish their kingdom of old, helping them strengthen their country and be prepared for Sauron, or better yet strike first. There's lots of things he could have done.
Now in the book universe it works out better and doesn't really need to be explained. But in the movie universe it's a little more obvious a flaw.
How many Tolkien fans does it take to change a light bulb?
"Change? Oh my god, what do you mean change?! Never, never, never......"
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jun 28 2014, 3:31am
Post #35 of 60
(469 views)
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...frequently in Gondor trying to help? We have seen that he established a good rapport with Faramir, but Denethor was very resistant. So, it's unclear what more he could have done. Similarly, he was keenly aware of the situation in Rohan, but was not in a position to intervene until the time came (Ring found, Aragorn on the move, etc.).
I seriously doubt that this is a problem that would worry most movie-only fans.
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Name
Rohan
Jun 28 2014, 4:02am
Post #36 of 60
(461 views)
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But to me it's a rather large plot hole. The movies establish Sauron's return 60 years before LotR. To me that instantly brings up questions. And don't even get me started on Gandalf's 17 year expedition trying to learn about Frodo's ring........
How many Tolkien fans does it take to change a light bulb?
"Change? Oh my god, what do you mean change?! Never, never, never......"
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jun 28 2014, 5:00am
Post #37 of 60
(465 views)
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...looms as a pretty big plot hole for me, too. Apparently Tolkien really wanted Frodo to set out at age 50 like Bilbo. Sometimes it's possible to be too consistent (or symmetrical, or whatever he was trying to be).
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Old Pilgrim
Rivendell
Jun 28 2014, 10:12am
Post #38 of 60
(450 views)
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it will be something similar to Gandalf vs Sauron fight, especially with Saruman and Radagast included. They are both Istari who can use magic, whether directly against Sauron or the Nine, but I believe we shall still see Sauron in action or at least I hope so.
I don't imagine Elrond fighting Sauron, but he could definitely fight Orcs and perhaps even the Ringwraiths. We don't know very much about Galadriel's powers but she may use her Phial or her ring Nenya in battle.
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Michelle Johnston
Rohan
Jun 28 2014, 12:20pm
Post #39 of 60
(467 views)
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I have often wondered over why the script writers introduced the Nazgul in these movies and I see a potential reason.
At some point in this third film there is going to be a stand off between the White Council elements and Sauron and curiously at the end of it all the participants in the movie LOTR will all survive. So it is about the experience of journey.
So in order to add something fresh in story telling terms they can offer :-
1) Fresh and unique confrontations.
2) Intrigue and suspension.
The first is achieved(already achieved in DOS by Sauron/Gandalf)
by the White Council directly facing the Nazgul and Sauron.
The second is by placing the Nazgul at the forefront of the action who are overcome in mythological terms by the White Council providing Sauron with the opportunity to withdraw and feign defeat.
This gives back the critical tension to the Nazgul's emergence in FOTR and stops short of a defeat of Sauron which HAS to be ring bound. It also means as the BOFA rages Sauron is still at large as a mythological force of evil encouraging, by his spiritual presence, his armies.
I am sure we the audience will be left with the intrigue that not all is at is it seems and this is not a complete victory.
This would fit with BODG preceding the BOFA rather than act as an encore moment as it does in the book by way of a brief explanation only. I do not think the script writers will lose sight of where the heart of this story lies and that is the denouement for B/G and T which puts BOFA as the crescendo and they have elevated it already being giving the name of the movie to it.
I also believe based on whats been said by Sir Christopher that Saruman and Galadriel will provide proportionate and canon support.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Jun 28 2014, 12:22pm)
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Arannir
Valinor
Jun 28 2014, 12:26pm
Post #40 of 60
(419 views)
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I agree 100%.
I guess they wanted to reveal Sauron in DoS and save the Nazgul for the last movie. Having both in the same movie may have been anti-climactic. It just stood out to be that there has been so much Nazgul teasing via the dagger and tomb storyline that it felt somehow unnatural to me not to see them in DoS.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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Noria
Gondor
Jun 28 2014, 1:11pm
Post #41 of 60
(401 views)
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I too think that there will be a payoff in the third movie for the Nazgul in AUJ. Chekov's gun and all that.
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Hanzkaz
Rohan
Jun 28 2014, 3:33pm
Post #42 of 60
(385 views)
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Much as I'd like a 'War in the North' follow-up,
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I wouldn't be surprised if Galadriel does destroy Dol Guldur in Hobbit 3.
Of course, if I were the movie makers, I'd be planning the 'War in the North' movies, right now.
___________________________________________________
From the makers of 'The Lord of the Rings' comes the sequel to Peter Jackson's Hobbit Trilogy -
'The War in the North, Part I : The Sword in the Tomb'.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 28 2014, 8:23pm
Post #43 of 60
(367 views)
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Even if Jackson does let Galadriel bring down the walls...
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Sauron has sixty years to rebuild the fortress, which remains a stragegically important position.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Michelle Johnston
Rohan
Jun 29 2014, 7:50am
Post #44 of 60
(329 views)
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Your right the teasing looks over extended but remember when the white council and high fells and early DG sections were filmed it was in block one in UK spring/ summer 2011, the three film split was way off in the future in creative terms.
When Cate and Sir Ian rehearsed those scenes as actors they had a two film payoff in their minds, Cate refers to the second movie.
When AUJ was released I remember saying that Radagast was left hanging, now we have seen DOS you can add the Nazgul storyline to that feel as well.
The thread of Radagast/White Council/High Fells and on to Dol Gulder for Bolg/Thrain was a really nice development of the sub plot which was fractured by going two to three.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Jun 29 2014, 7:55am)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 29 2014, 1:28pm
Post #45 of 60
(298 views)
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Typographical error. That should have read strategically.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Cillendor
Lorien
Jun 29 2014, 6:38pm
Post #46 of 60
(287 views)
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The advantage to destroying Dol Guldur now
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is that it explains why Lothlórian was able to send troops to Helm's Deep in The Two Towers. In the book, they were fighting against forces from Dol Guldur, but having that tower destroyed early frees them up for their appearance later on. If anything, I think it's a happy coincidence that PJ had the elves show up in Rohan. It gives him an excuse to compress Galadriel's destruction of Dol Guldur into the time frame of The Hobbit. I'm sure it will be a visually spectacular scene.
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dreamflower
Lorien
Jun 30 2014, 1:52pm
Post #47 of 60
(258 views)
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But Saruman was already veering to the dark side
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Tale of Years: Third Age, 2939 (two years before the quest for Erebor)
"Saruman discovers that Sauron's servants are searching the Anduin near Gladden Fields, and that Sauron therefore has learned of Isildur's end. He is alarmed, but says nothing to the Council."
ToY, Third Age, 2941 (the adventure year)
"Thorin Oakenshield and Gandalf visit Bilbo in the Shire. Bilbo meets Sméagol-Gollum and finds the Ring. The White Council meets; Saruman agrees to an attack on Dol Guldur, since he now wishes to prevent Sauron from searching the River. Sauron having made his plans abandons Dol Guldur..."
It's fairly obvious that Saruman was already bent on retrieving the Ring for himself, otherwise he would have told the others where he suspected the location of the Ring to be. (Of course, he was already too late, since Gollum had retrieved it centuries before, but he wouldn't know that.)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 30 2014, 2:13pm
Post #48 of 60
(248 views)
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But Saruman was already veering to the dark side Tale of Years: Third Age, 2939 (two years before the quest for Erebor)
"Saruman discovers that Sauron's servants are searching the Anduin near Gladden Fields, and that Sauron therefore has learned of Isildur's end. He is alarmed, but says nothing to the Council."
ToY, Third Age, 2941 (the adventure year)
"Thorin Oakenshield and Gandalf visit Bilbo in the Shire. Bilbo meets Sméagol-Gollum and finds the Ring. The White Council meets; Saruman agrees to an attack on Dol Guldur, since he now wishes to prevent Sauron from searching the River. Sauron having made his plans abandons Dol Guldur..."
It's fairly obvious that Saruman was already bent on retrieving the Ring for himself, otherwise he would have told the others where he suspected the location of the Ring to be. (Of course, he was already too late, since Gollum had retrieved it centuries before, but he wouldn't know that.)
That doesn't necessarily apply to the films. Either that, or Christopher Lee is in a bit of denial.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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J Pierpont Flathead
Rivendell
Jun 30 2014, 2:21pm
Post #49 of 60
(241 views)
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That doesn't necessarily apply to the films. Either that, or Christopher Lee is in a bit of denial.
I had the same thought. I think of it in terms of he and Jackson not being completely in sync on story, especially when the script isn't done until the film leaves the editing room and is headed for the theater with Jackson still cutting it while in the taxi on the way.
Now his life is full of wonder
But his heart still knows some fear
Of a simple thing he cannot comprehend
Why they try to tear the mountains down
To bring in a couple more
More people, more scars upon the land
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Eleniel
Tol Eressea
Jun 30 2014, 2:26pm
Post #50 of 60
(236 views)
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I think it's more a case of....
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not wanting to spoil the surprise of FotR for the first time audience, as well as of course keeping narrative sense...
"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort
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