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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Jun 22 2014, 3:45pm
Post #1 of 33
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Was Sauron visible . . .
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(and The Ring) during the battle with Gil-galad & Elendil.
If so why?
Comments, references?
"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
-Albert Einstein
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 22 2014, 4:25pm
Post #2 of 33
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Sauron controlled the One Ring.
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As the Maker of the Master Ring, Sauron could control its powers. He could probably become visible or invisible at will.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Jun 22 2014, 4:50pm
Post #3 of 33
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As the Maker of the Master Ring, Sauron could control its powers. He could probably become visible or invisible at will. Then naturally Elendil and Gil-galad were fighting the invisible? And did he become visible after his "death" as Isildur seemed to have no trouble finding the proper finger to cut off?
Quandaries . .
(BOOKS PLEASE)
"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
-Albert Einstein
(This post was edited by Bracegirdle on Jun 22 2014, 4:51pm)
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Joe-Mathews
Rivendell
Jun 23 2014, 2:16am
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Intimidation and the ring's goal
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You forget Sauron's overconfidence that led to his downfall then and at the end of the Third Age.
I believe Sauron chose to be visible during the Last Alliance battle to strike fear and dread into his enemies. A bad tactical choice on his part. Overconfidence.
Once the ring was severed from his hand, his spirit was too weakened to control the ring. The ring itself, needing to find a new master, wanted to be visible. Like the ring wanted to be found by Smeagol and then wanted to leave with Bilbo. It is logical for the ring to want to be found after Sauron's defeat.
I can't give you book passages to back this up. It just seems consistent to me. The books do not state clearly wether Sauron wanted to be visible or wether the elves and/or Numenoreans back then were powerful enough in their own right to see past the ring's powers of invisibility. Elves do see both the world of the living and spirit world.
'There is some woe that lies upon you... Why will you not tell me more?'
'For that woe is past,' said Galadriel; 'and I would take what joy is here left, untroubled by memory. And maybe there is woe enough yet to come, thought still hope may seem bright.'
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Jun 23 2014, 12:53pm
Post #5 of 33
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And I agree that he chose to be visible for the reasons you give, and also there was no mention in the corpus of invisibility at this battle.
Once the ring was severed from his hand, his spirit was too weakened to control the ring. Not quite sure what you mean here. Wasn’t Sauron physically “dead” before Isildur cut The Ring from his finger? And what power does the “spirit” have over the “physical”?
Cheers
BG
"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
-Albert Einstein
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Felagund
Rohan
Jun 23 2014, 9:34pm
Post #6 of 33
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invisibility, the One Ring, and mastery - some thoughts
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An interesting thread. A few thoughts and theories.
A couple of points on invisibility. Firstly, it seems that Ainur were able to become invisible. The Sil records that in Valinor Olórin the Maia (pre-Gandalf) "walked unseen among them (the Eldar), or in form as one of them". Melkor is described as having the same ability at one point: "For as yet he was one of the Valar, and could change form, or walk unclad, as could his brethren" (The Sil). The same passage goes on to say that Melkor lost this ability once his corruption reached a certain level. Thinking about these two passages, it's hard to say whether Sauron maintained the ability to switch back and forth from physical to spiritual. By the time of his final confrontation with Gil-galad and Elendil, Sauron's power had already been debased - even with the One Ring in his possession. He could still switch physical form at the end of the Second Age (but no longer able assume a fair one, following his first physical death during the cataclysm at Númenor), but his incorporeal status early in the Third Age is more a sign of weakness and near destruction - not an expression of an ability to switch back and forth, from physical to spiritual.
Secondly, on the One Ring's role in invisibility, for Sauron the two don't strike me as connected. It doesn't seem likely Sauron made the One Ring in order to shift from one plane of existence to the next. He was a Maia, and therefore was already well acquainted with the spirit world. Even as a corrupted Maia, his specialty was necromancy, after all. The One Ring's purpose was the domination of the wills of others. When mortals, such as Men or Hobbits wore a Ring of Power, invisibility seems to me more of a by-product, related to relative spiritual weakness. Mortals were pushed into the spiritual world, without a choice - invisibility, in effect, but in reality a shove into another plane, where they could be seen, and attacked by hostile denizens of the spirit world such as wraiths. An Elf, on the other hand was, in essence, a relatively strong fëa (spirit) in charge of a hröa (body). An Elf wearing a Ring of Power therefore doesn't seem to have turned invisible, at least not involuntarily. Strangely enough, a Ring of Power itself could be invisible though. In The Fellowship of the Ring, Galadriel explains to Frodo that it's only because he's a Ring-bearer that can see Nenya on her finger. Sam, who is also present during this scene ('The Mirror of Galadriel'), cannot.
On mastery, Tolkien was pretty clear that the One Ring was permanently bound to Sauron, no matter how weak a state its master might be in. Letter #246 is a good read for this dynamic. Sauron had imbued the One Ring with part of his own native essence - it was, in many respects, an extension of himself. The letter explains that the only being in Middle-earth who stood a chance of mastering the One Ring, ie. defeating the Will of Sauron, was Gandalf - and even that would be a close run thing because the Ring, even if worn by Gandalf at the time, would still owe Sauron its "true allegiance".
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Joe-Mathews
Rivendell
Jun 24 2014, 12:24am
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You reminded me of a passage about the destruction of Numenor where Sauron lost his ability to take on a fair form.
All in all, after Sauron knew he could no longer deceive any of the Wise or Elves, he had no desire to want invisibility. He was bent on amassing power, regaining a physical from, and didn't care for subtlety or a fair fight.
My guess is that the ring only gave out invisibility to the wearers only because the wearers (often subconsciously) wanted not to be seen. It was literally a ring of power, not just a ring of invisibility. It would convey powers to the wearer in proportion to the wearer's abilities. I do not believe Smeagol or Bilbo ever thought of it doing more than bestowing invisibility, so they were likely unaware of other things it could possibly do for them. Frodo was well warned by Gandalf to not use it, so he didn't try to push its powers. If Saruman, Denethor, Boromir, or another person with the desire to rule got hold of the ring, there is no telling the powers the ring could have bestowed.
(On a side note, not for this thread, I always wondered what would have happened if a Nazgul did get the One from Frodo. As the Master ring of the 9 rings for mortal men, surely it would have freed the Nazgul from Sauron's hold over the them even if Sauron held the 9 rings. At the very least, the Nazgul would have used the One to re-obtain his one of the Nine.)
'There is some woe that lies upon you... Why will you not tell me more?'
'For that woe is past,' said Galadriel; 'and I would take what joy is here left, untroubled by memory. And maybe there is woe enough yet to come, thought still hope may seem bright.'
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squire
Half-elven
Jun 24 2014, 12:32am
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One could not 'defeat the will of Sauron' with the One Ring
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Excellent post with which I agree wholeheartedly, except for the final point. To niggle: as Tolkien says, Gandalf could possibly have succeeded in keeping the Ring under his own control in direct contest with Sauron. Had he done so, he would have been the new Lord of the Rings. Where I disagree is where you equate 'mastering the Ring' with 'defeating the will of Sauron'. Tolkien says definitively that Gandalf would have become corrupt and evil once he took the Ring and subdued Sauron. In fact, he draws a hideous picture of the wizard unwittingly doing 'the will of Sauron' long after Sauron was defeated and crushed, because the Ring was (as you say) a substantial and effective part of the Dark Lord:
If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end.
Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been far worse than Sauron. He would have remained 'righteous', but self-righteous. He would have continued to rule and order things for 'good', and the benefit of his subjects according to his wisdom (which was and would have remained great). - JRRT, Letter 246 (draft), Sept. 1963 Is this a hideous picture? Yes, to Tolkien at least: his point is that rule over others for ones own aggrandizement and satisfaction is a very great evil - the only thing worse is when the ruler deceives himself as to his motives! (note his concession that Gandalf would remain "wise" - puzzling until you remember what the wizard said about his enemy Sauron:
For he is very wise... - LotR II.2)
squire online:
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Jun 24 2014, 2:21am
Post #9 of 33
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My fairly simple question has blossomed beyond my ken.
Couple more quick sophomoric questions/observations: In Letter #131 Tolkien states that as The Three Elven Rings were not sullied by Sauron they did not confer invisibility. Thus Galadriel was seen wearing Nenya by Frodo and Sam; and Gandalf was seen wearing Narya by all at The Grey Havens.
Also, why were the nine Nazgul never invisible.
And did The Seven give the Dwarves invisibility.
Cheers BG 
"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
-Albert Einstein
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Felagund
Rohan
Jun 24 2014, 7:42am
Post #10 of 33
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The Unfinished Tales chapter. 'The Hunt for the Ring' helps answer your question.
"They [the Nazgûl] were by far the most powerful of his servants, and the most suitable for such a mission [hunting for the Ring], since they were entirely enslaved to their Nine Rings, which he now himself held; they were quite incapable of acting against his will, and if one of them, even the Witch-king their captain, had seized the One Ring, he would have brought it back to his Master."
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Felagund
Rohan
Jun 24 2014, 7:49am
Post #11 of 33
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Completely. Clumsily put on my part about the will of Sauron. As you say, mastering the One Ring (ie. the essence of Sauron that was in the Ring), was different from defeating the will of Sauron itself.
And yes, Gandalf the self-righteous Dark Lord would have been terrible for Middle-earth. Worse than Sauron also in the sense that by that stage of the Third Age there was literally no one left in Middle-earth who could have toppled Evil Gandalf. And Gandalf would have been 'super-charged', on account of having added a chunk of Sauron's native power to his own.
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Felagund
Rohan
Jun 24 2014, 7:57am
Post #12 of 33
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on the (in)visibility of the Three Rings
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A quick and partial answer. By the time of the Grey Havens meeting, the Three Rings have lost their power, on account of the destruction of the One Ring. My take is that they are, for all intents and purposes, nice pieces of jewellery, visible to all and impotent. However, before the destruction of the One, to which the Three were bound, the Three couldn't be perceived by a non-Ring-bearer. That, at least, is what Galadriel tells Frodo at the Mirror of Galadriel. She 'proves' it to Frodo by asking Sam if he could see Nenya - which he could not.
Great reference in Letter #131, by the way!
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Jun 24 2014, 1:58pm
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ignore this post and it's invisible
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I have a different take. Sorry about the word way I wove it...
Although Earendil was said to be bright enough that Galadriel cast a dim shadow, it was still dark, and Frodo sees the ring when the starlight glanced off Nenya. When Galadriel first lifted up her arms: 'Frodo gazed at the Ring with awe; for suddenly it seemed to him that he understood.' We don't know at this point that the Ring was necessarily invisible. Frodo doesn't suddenly see the Ring I think, but suddenly understands. I think this connects to Galadriel's question later.
The second time Galadriel lifts her hand the Ring issued a great light that illuminated her alone. Frodo does ask why he cannot: '... see all the others and know the thoughts of those that wear them' but even this isn't exactly 'simple sight' but perception as well. As Ringbearer his 'sight has grown keener' -- not his physical visual powers I think, but his ability to see that which is hidden from the perception of others.
But of course comes the issue of Sam: yet note Galadriel's question compared to what had been noted about Frodo suddenly understanding: 'And did you not see and recognize the ring upon my finger? Did you see my ring?' she asked, turning to Sam.'
Granted Galadriel doesn't say 'and recognize' to Sam as well, but I find it notable that 'and recognize' was added to a draft at some point, where the earlier text simply had 'see' for Frodo's question as well. Sam doesn't actually mention any ring of course, admittedly suggesting invisibility, but he did see something -- and to my mind something connected to what was actually going on too -- he saw 'a star through your [Galadriel's] fingers'.
Again that's something. But perhaps Sam would not 'see' the truth even if he had noticed an actual ring: he wasn't the Bearer of the One, and as a Hobbit in general is 'Halfwise' and simple (Sam already had said he didn't want 'to see no more magic' even). This would be quite like Tolkien in my opinion: a good way to illustrate perception would be to have Sam see something he thought was something else, and simply not understand what all this talk was about.
I'm not saying this is a clearly correct interpretation (especially if there is other text to consider on this point), but if Tolkien wants to keep invisibility in general out of the picture with respect to the Three, perhaps he would have explained this scene as being more about perception than simply visual recognition of a ring.
Maybe I would make a poor detective here, but upon meeting people and talking with them (for a while even), I wouldn't necessarily be sure, an hour later or whatever, whether or not they were wearing any rings, unless it's made notable for some reason. It seems odd that Sam didn't actually see any Ring, and odd too that he should say he wondered what they were talking about, as Galadriel simply states she is wearing Nenya! Even if Sam hadn't noticed an actual ring, Galadriel's meaning should be plain enough.
Still, I note what occurs after Sam's vision. Sam was notably upset by what he saw in the mirror, and we don't know how attentive he was being after his experience -- and we can 'see' in his answer to Galadriel that his mind is (at least arguably) still on home after Frodo's vision and conversation -- wishing Galadriel would take the One and stop 'them digging up the gaffer' and so on.
Or something else 
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Jun 24 2014, 2:44pm
Post #14 of 33
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newer, shorter, play on the word galad version
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In my opinion Frodo 'saw' Galadriel's ring as in discerned that it was a Ring of Power, while Sam saw a star between Galadriel's fingers -- not nothing -- but which, in my opinion still, was really the reflected light [or galad, actually] of Nenya.
In a sense, Sam saw gil-galad 
'And did you not see and recognize the ring upon my finger? Did you see my ring?' she asked, turning to Sam.' I think the 'and recognize' is still implied to Sam, although his answer is so far off he seems not to have even seen a ring, much less realize it was one of the Three.
I really should go with this version from now on.
Plus, before someone strides in here and rightly claims that a passage in Fellowship of the Ring at least strongly implies that the Three [as part of the Rings of Power in general] did confer invisibility, I will note it here. My answer to that was that Gandalf was arguably speaking generally about the Rings of Power and invsibility... and to note the exception of the Three -- since Gandalf knew Frodo did not have one of the Three in any case -- would have been an unnecessary digression as far as the 'lesson' for Frodo about invisibility, if technically 'necessary' to be wholly correct according to the letter.
Either that or Tolkien just forgot what he had published in this early chapter [Shadow of the Past] when he wrote that letter. Or something else.
But this additional stuff hopefully makes this post a little more than merely redundant 
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ElendilTheShort
Gondor
Jun 25 2014, 2:09am
Post #15 of 33
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it says invisibility was a power conferred to the Rings of Power by Sauron, so it was not any sort of by product or side effect. In the same passage it also states that the Elven Rings specifically did not confer invisibility. In any case the nature of dwarves meant that they did not become invisible at all despite the power conferred to the rings by Sauron.
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ElendilTheShort
Gondor
Jun 25 2014, 2:12am
Post #16 of 33
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One of the wise comments on the black cloaks giving them form, and at Pellenor all Eowyn can see under the crown is the WKings eyes.
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Jun 25 2014, 3:07am
Post #17 of 33
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But I'm not going to loose any sleep over them.
1. The Dwarves could wear a Ring of Power and not become invisible because of their "nature". (Stubbornness I guess.)
2. Why did the Witch King fight in visible (clothed) form on the Pelennor?
(Same reason Joe-Matthews gave above for Sauron is all I can come up with. He thought he was indefatigable.)
"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
-Albert Einstein
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 25 2014, 3:11am
Post #18 of 33
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so what do we mean by rings of power, anyway?
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i believe i recall that the elves made many rings (besides the three). are these to be considered rings of power? did they force invisibility upon their wearers?
nine rings of power went to nine humans which were ultimately known as the nazgul. were there other ring of power given / obtained by other humans?
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 25 2014, 3:13am
Post #19 of 33
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the witch-king on the pelennor
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hmmmmm.... if he truly thought he was indefatigable, would he not have gone without armor? or perhaps the armor was just a scare tactic... a weapon of terror. i imagine it would be rather unnerving to see a warrior who had no face, and whom even might be known by reputation as the chief nazgul.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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ElendilTheShort
Gondor
Jun 25 2014, 3:18am
Post #20 of 33
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words by either gandalf in the chapter shadow of the past or elrond at his council, I really can't recall right now
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they are all named "elven rings" and perilous to mortals but there is a distinction between the lesser rings "mere trifles" as opposed to the Rings of Power which totalled 20, being The One, The Three (untouched by Sauron and the greatest the elves made) and 16 others, 9 given to men, 7 to dwarves. People in RL often confuse that the 9 and the 7 were made for men and dwarves, they never were, they were made by elves (with Saurons aid) for elves as far as the elves knew, but of course subverted by Sauron.
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jun 25 2014, 6:51am
Post #21 of 33
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The Nazgul were, first and foremost, from the "psy ops" contingent, spreading panic among their foes. Much harder to do if you're invisible. They're cloaked, they're shrieking, they're being as obvious as possible. That's how they operate.
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea
Jun 25 2014, 10:49am
Post #22 of 33
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Yes. Gil galad had extra powers to see him due to the ring he was wearing. And Elendil and co. had Palantiri on the battlefield
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Seo the could somehow have a deeper vision.
Now seriously the thing of the palantiri I dont see it, but that Gil Galad could have had powers such as seeing Sauron if he was invisible thanks to the relven ring, I can see that
The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true!
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Jun 25 2014, 11:17am
Post #23 of 33
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In general the Elves took off their Rings of Power until Sauron was slain, employing them in the Third Age after Sauron had lost the One.
Well 'lost' it as in got beat up and Isildur took it... and his lunch money too, I'm guessing.
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 25 2014, 1:56pm
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mr. arkenstone, i think that's ingenious thinking, to theorize that gil-galad could see sauron because he was wearing one of the elven rings of power (narya or vilya, depending on the source). very clever!
but, as elthir notes, gil-galad did not wear an elven ring of power to that battle. prior to that he had given narya (and vilya, depending on the source) to cirdan (and elrond, again, depending on the source).
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea
Jun 25 2014, 2:10pm
Post #25 of 33
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yeah I didnt thought about that
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it was clever from Gil-galad,s part not to take it to Mordor. But I think elves such like him had somekind of perception to locate Sauron evern if he was invisible
The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true!
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