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Children of Hurin Discussion: The Journey of Morwen and Nienor to Nargothrond
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CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 24 2014, 12:11am

Post #1 of 43 (509 views)
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Children of Hurin Discussion: The Journey of Morwen and Nienor to Nargothrond Can't Post

Here come the women back into the story!

Nargothrond is devoured by a dragon, and remarkably, some people survive the sack, the Fell Winter, starvation, and roving Orcs to come to Doriath with conflicting accounts of what happened. Thingol, let's note, is kindlier to refugees than Turgon is, and I don't give Thingol credit often. Yet he comes off well in this story, showing compassion and restraint to the whole family of Hurin. Morwen is less than polite and gracious when he cautions her against rashness:


Quote
"‘You did not hold Túrin from peril, but me you will hold from him,’ cried Morwen. ‘In the keeping of Melian! Yes, a prisoner of the Girdle! Long did I hold back before I entered it, and now I rue it.’"


Not only does she accuse Thingol of taking poor care of Turin, but she rashly (and rudely) complains that she's a prisoner when in fact she's been an honored guest. Is Morwen's reaction justifiable as a mother, or is she out of line?

In case we thought one woman could talk sense into another, Melian has no more luck than Thingol does. That sets up Nienor's failure to prevail over Morwen also. Is this fate driving Morwen to excess pride and foolishness, or simply her personality? What if Hurin had told her to stay at home--would she have listened? As someone who's never lived in the wild, fought a battle, etc, what exactly did she think she'd accomplish by chasing after Turin in enemy territory?

What do you make of Morwen's speech with Nienor:

Quote
"Now Morwen went to Niënor, and said: ‘Farewell, daughter of Húrin. I go to seek my son, or true tidings of him, since none here will do aught, but tarry till too late."


She doesn't call her "my daughter" nor say that she's going to seek "your brother." She could just as well be talking to the family maid. Is this how royals talk, or does she seem remarkably distant and detached?


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 24 2014, 12:13am

Post #2 of 43 (398 views)
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A road trip gone all wrong [In reply to] Can't Post

I plainly disapprove of Morwen, but Nienor impresses me. She wants to honor their hosts and restrain her mother's impetuousness, while remaining brave and sensible. She's got the Hurinite stubbornness, but wishy-washy people don't make great tragic heroes. Given that she has more sense than Morwen, why does she go along with her after failing to persuade her to go home?

Mablung impresses me as the suffering hero in this part of the story, taking up where Beleg left off, the dutiful soldier doing his duty, and brave to the extreme (I'd love to see a movie snippet of "The Adventures of Mablung in Nargothrond." That's a story that fires the imagination.).

Why do you suppose Glaurung didn't kill Mablung or any of the others? What did he expect to gain by wiping Nienor's memory? Did he have any foresight that she'd wind up in Brethil? Didn't he risk that she'd run off into the wild like Morwen and never be seen again for years, effectively falling outside the curse and the story?

Another reason to join the Mablung fan club:

Quote
"Nonetheless Mablung would not rest, and with a small company he went into the wild and for three years wandered far, from Ered Wethrin even to the Mouths of Sirion, seeking for sign or tidings of the lost."


If Mablung did all this searching, why did he never come across Turin and the remnants of Haleth's people, to seek for news, at the very least?


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 24 2014, 12:22am

Post #3 of 43 (393 views)
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Side note: news reporting, then and now [In reply to] Can't Post

The opening paragraph of this chapter strikes me like modern day news coverage, even with the advantage of satellites, Twitter, etc.


Quote
When the Fell Winter withdrew new tidings of Nargothrond came to Doriath. For some that escaped from the sack, and had survived the winter in the wild, came at last seeking refuge with Thingol, and the march-wards brought them to the King. And some said that all the enemy had withdrawn northwards, and others that Glaurung abode still in the halls of Felagund; and some said that the Mormegil was slain, and others that he was cast under a spell by the Dragon and dwelt there yet, as one changed to stone. But all declared that it was known in Nargothrond ere the end that the Blacksword was none other than Túrin son of Húrin of Dor-lómin.


Does that sound familiar when watching the news? I can think of a Godzilla attack in Paris in 2014 going like this:

--"Reports are in that Godzilla has set the Eiffel Tower on fire and melted it."
--"This just in: there are three Godzillas attacking Europe, 2 in Paris and 1 in Berlin."
--"Our update is that the Eiffel Tower is only on fire, not melted, but the Louvre is in flames. Godzilla is headed toward London next."
--"New reports suggest Godzilla is headed toward Madrid after destroying the Eiffel Tower with his tail, correction, he destroyed TWO Eiffel Towers--wait, I thought there was only one!--but reports say..."

So the whole post-Glaurung disaster sounds like a modern news story patched together. A nice dose of realism in the tale!


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 24 2014, 12:31am

Post #4 of 43 (399 views)
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This chapter overall [In reply to] Can't Post

COH is the struggle of free will vs fate, and hope vs a curse. Does anything in this chapter give you hope that things can still go well? Or do you get the feeling that I do, that we're in free fall towards a dreadful end?

Morwen exhibits pride, Nienor exhibits courage, and Mablung is exemplary when it comes to duty and conscience. How much of these traits seem shared by Turin and Hurin?

How responsible are Thingol and Melian for what happens to the Hurin-women? What could they have done differently?

We never see much of Morgoth's top servants besides Sauron and Glaurung. How do the latter compare? Is Glaurung basically Sauron with fire in his belly? Is he wiser, more devious, more or less loyal, more or less powerful overall?

Thanks for your participation!


cats16
Half-elven


Jun 26 2014, 4:05am

Post #5 of 43 (372 views)
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Coming back soon! [In reply to] Can't Post

Just in case you were about to go all Rem-Smeagol/Gollum on us. Tongue


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 26 2014, 12:48pm

Post #6 of 43 (367 views)
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Yay! A reply! [In reply to] Can't Post

With 11,016 registered users on TORN, it's great to have someone reply. Thanks, Cats!

You're right, I was about to go Rem here, and then wondered if that might provoke Rem to reply to me, or to start talking to himself and ignore me, so it seemed a risky proposition.

Jokes aside, we probably need to slow down the schedule for the remaining chapters to spread them out more over the summer so people who wish to catch up will be able to. I'm going to hold off on Nienor and Doriath a few days.

And maybe we'll skip the last few chapters, since they're sad and everyone dies, even the dragon, and who wants a dead, stinking dragon in the Reading Room? :)


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 26 2014, 3:04pm

Post #7 of 43 (360 views)
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I too will return soon CG! [In reply to] Can't Post

To actually discuss things. Unless I am buried in a dirt avalanche, as landscaping projects are all half done right now. Or I may morph root legs one of these days and just go the Ent route. That could really provide lots of insight. I'll keep you posted.

The next TORn Amateur Symposium is a special edition: the Jubilee TAS to celebrate 60 years of FOTR! If you have an LOTR idea you would like to write about, we'd love to see your writing featured there!








Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 26 2014, 3:12pm

Post #8 of 43 (362 views)
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will post soon, cg [In reply to] Can't Post

 
i've been delaying because i actually want to +read+ the chapters, but it might be faster if i just dive in.

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 26 2014, 4:02pm

Post #9 of 43 (351 views)
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Well, with a name like Brethil [In reply to] Can't Post

you're half-Huorn already, aren't you? But if we can awaken you from your slumber (maybe by spreading rumors of rampant orcs nearby that need a good branch-pummeling), it would be great to see you again, leaves and all.

Good luck with the landscaping! If it includes a scale-model Minas Tirith in your backyard (what kind of bird bath would that make?), please send photos.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 26 2014, 4:02pm

Post #10 of 43 (348 views)
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Well, backing up opinions with facts is SO overrated. Why bother with the reread? // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 26 2014, 4:04pm

Post #11 of 43 (350 views)
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can i make stuff up? that would be +even faster+. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 26 2014, 6:29pm

Post #12 of 43 (346 views)
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Isn't that a standard creative writing assignment? [In reply to] Can't Post

"Write your own ending to The Lord of the Flies." So you can rewrite The Children of Hurin's ending from a feminist perspective where Nienor kills Glaurung, kills Turin for being a jerk, and marries both Mablung and Brandir as part of a matriarchal, polyandrous society which survives the First Age, because patriarchs like Morgoth are terrified of matriarchies and won't go near them.

But you still have to answer my freakin' questions, whether you use facts or not.


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Jun 26 2014, 7:48pm

Post #13 of 43 (350 views)
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What! It talks to us!? [In reply to] Can't Post

It doesn't mean us? Oh no, it doesn't, does it, precious?

Of course it does! Rem! Rem! The nasty, tricksy Mr.G is so curious! Rem! Rem! He hurts us!

But we thoughts it was nice! Nice happy monkey!

No! Not nice! Rem! Rem! It pretends to be nice, pretends to be a friend, but we know the truth! Rem! Rem!

Oh, yes! We knows the truth! Now it can't hurts us! But what should we do, precious?

Oh, We know, we know...It talks about stinking dragon! It fears it, so we just tell him of a nice place, full of nice gold and jewels! A nice mountain, all alone! Rem! Rem! Then we takes him to the gate...ho, ho!.. We sends him inside and let HIM take care of that cheeky Mr. G!!

Yes! Yes, precious! let HIM take care of the tricksy, nasty monkey! But would he do it?

Yes! Rem! Rem! We know how he loves his treasures! He guards it day and night, he could Sherlock-out any thief! And with his voice, so smooth and cool, like it was made from a batch of cucumbers, he'd find him!

And then we'd be free!!!

Yes, yes. And if he asks any questions......

'Not listening!!!' that's what we tell him! Oh you are so clever Rem! And dapper too, but we really must do something about that strange cough....



More seriously: I'll try to put up a few thoughts. A throat and ear infection have given me the time off work, so we'll see what I can do!

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?

(This post was edited by Rembrethil on Jun 26 2014, 7:49pm)


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Jun 26 2014, 8:20pm

Post #14 of 43 (338 views)
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Well.... [In reply to] Can't Post

 I see a bit of material that goes with last week's discussion.

Thingol speaks for Turin, saying that he would be glad his family is in Doriath, so maybe this goes against my thought that he was held back from them by their location and saddened by it.

I also see that Turin is revealed here again for all his pseudonyms. The Mormegil is Turin, he cannot hide from it, and he seems quick to take another name.

Interestingly enough it was the Helm of Hador that identified him to Morgoth before, and now his sword would do the same, being revealed as the 'Black-Sword'. He put it aside in the last chapter as he did the Helm after Amon Rudh. (What ever happened to that Helm?) Maybe Turin's problem is that he chooses to much fancy bling and equippage?Tongue Maybe he is searching for identity and distinction while trying to remain hidden? An internal contradiction? One part hiding from the Curse' the other seeking honour and renown.


Now to this chapter....

I see Morwen's words as understandable. They are grief-fueled and excusable, many might say. Interestingly enough, I could see these words coming from the mouth of Turin. I think they are quite similar, Morwen and Turin, in spirit. It really is hard to assign blame to Turin, at first, I found, but as time went on, I developed an antipathy for him. Maybe the same will be the case with Morwen? How much slack can we give her before we start to hate her?

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Jun 26 2014, 9:04pm

Post #15 of 43 (334 views)
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Mother, Daughter and a Dragon [In reply to] Can't Post

Nienor does seem like a light in this dark tale. I even fancy that she may be the saving of this stubborn family. Shee seems very admirable, indeed, but Morwen seems to muddle the good she has managed to bring. Morwen is given an ultimatum, one with great rewards or consequences, and in this instance I see her lapse, if ever so slightly. Until now she has been cold, calculated, and determined, but she seems to vacillate between the two choices and prevaricates until the final declaration of her intention. She tries to avoid the choice itself by pulling motherly rank on Nienor, but she is clever enough to dodge that misdirection and press her point. In the end, it is her pride, sadly, and not wisdom that rules the decision.

Mablung then has a quip I think hilarious! 'These guys may not be the brightest, but they are brave! So at least that's not the reason they are so toxic! It wasn't this way before, but now the whole family has gone cracked!' (Paraphrased, of course.) Morwen catches this, and I imagine she replies with icy severity 'Do your job!' (Again, paraphrased)

Mablung really does seem to channel Beleg-- the dutiful soldier.

Back to Glaurung for a minute: It is said that he haunted the doors. Why? Did he think Turin might come back to call him to account? If so, the suffering patience to play such a long game makes him even more despicable and deadly! Also--the fact that his sight is better than eagles! What? He seems infinitely more dangerous now! He's a real killing machine! Smaug seems out-classed! I love Tolkien's dragons!

Back to Mablung: He creeps up and gets a nasty surprise. The rank and file run, but he soldiers on, What an Elf!

Now the vapours that came when Glaurung forded the stream. What do you think they were? Hardly steam. Maybe some of that secretion that slimed Erebor for Smaug's passage, but greater in light of Glaurung's wingless-ness? Blowing them down on the Spyhill, seems another unlucky chance for Hurin's family. What might have influenced it, or was it natural misfortune?

Meeting the dragon, I see heroism on Nienor's part, but the same pride, as in Turin, seems to be her downfall. Why did she have to reveal herself? Is she trying to pull and Eowyn, albeit unsuccessfully? Is this her downfall, for as Treebeard said, once one knows your name, they can work all sorts of terrible magic against you. Is the declaration of her true-name what allows Glaurung to break her? I am thinking of the occult magic practice of 'Naming', here. Was she compelled to reveal her name, as Pippin was to Sauron?

Why did he mess with Nienor? Pure spite, just trying to make their lives more miserable and corrupt a good soul. Maybe he sensed the good in her? She felt fair, and he wanted to mar that? No, I don't grant him foresight. Sauron and Morgoth were not so good at fortune-telling themselves. It could be any reason, but you know he was going to do something bad.

Back to Mablung: He encounters Glaurung on the way out, but he seems weakened. How? From striving with Nienor's noble spirit?

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Jun 26 2014, 9:05pm

Post #16 of 43 (332 views)
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Melian thoughts and others... [In reply to] Can't Post

I find it interesting that Melian says she prevents evil from entering, but not leaving. So if I understand correctly, by letting Turin in, he is absolved of the label of 'evil' at first, but by leaving does that reinstate the title? Is this why he cannot/will not re-enter the Girdle? Would coming back clear his mind of the plaguing evil that follows him?

In assigning Thingol the part of preventing a departure, is he to blame for Turin's leaving? At the time it seemed like he did all he could, so why this dialogue? Is it just an artistic inversion meant to communicate the symmetry of their ruling relationship, and not reflect on the past?

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


cats16
Half-elven


Jun 26 2014, 9:25pm

Post #17 of 43 (332 views)
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Sounds good [In reply to] Can't Post

I'll follow your lead with my chapter, then. I might not have WiFi for a brief period in the next week or two, but it shouldn't be a huge issue.

Skip 'em, says I. Quite a mess with dead dragons around. Will this new discussion be in the style of the Choose Your Own Adventure books?? I think that could give us some interesting talking points. Wink


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 27 2014, 1:28am

Post #18 of 43 (325 views)
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No root legs yet. So here I am! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To


Quote
"‘You did not hold Túrin from peril, but me you will hold from him,’ cried Morwen. ‘In the keeping of Melian! Yes, a prisoner of the Girdle! Long did I hold back before I entered it, and now I rue it.’"


Not only does she accuse Thingol of taking poor care of Turin, but she rashly (and rudely) complains that she's a prisoner when in fact she's been an honored guest. Is Morwen's reaction justifiable as a mother, or is she out of line? Well, she isn't the mother of a small child, out missing: he's a man at this point. She took more risk with him on her own by sending him away to Doriath! So I see an inherent contradiction here. It feels more like Morwen just rebels against any authority or binding, or anyone who would contain her. Very much like her son!

In case we thought one woman could talk sense into another, Melian has no more luck than Thingol does. That sets up Nienor's failure to prevail over Morwen also. Is this fate driving Morwen to excess pride and foolishness, or simply her personality? What if Hurin had told her to stay at home--would she have listened? As someone who's never lived in the wild, fought a battle, etc, what exactly did she think she'd accomplish by chasing after Turin in enemy territory? I wonder here if 'fate' and 'personality' aren't entwined? Morwen and Turin's lives would not be what they were without them being who they are; not dismissing the Curse as having agency and power, but also the other part of the equation in that the people concerned make choices and will behave in ways that are often predictable based on their natures.
As to what she would achieve...I don't think she is thinking that far ahead! Its more about the point of leaving, acting on harsh honor and the power of emotion.

What do you make of Morwen's speech with Nienor:

Quote
"Now Morwen went to Niënor, and said: ‘Farewell, daughter of Húrin. I go to seek my son, or true tidings of him, since none here will do aught, but tarry till too late."


She doesn't call her "my daughter" nor say that she's going to seek "your brother."
She could just as well be talking to the family maid. Is this how royals talk, or does she seem remarkably distant and detached? Its very detached!!! It makes the entire episode rather about her though, and it comes across as very sour to me. And what is poor Nienor to do when confronted with such a loaded statement - if she has any sense of honor or duty or worth, she has no choice but to sneak along! Its rash and it has consequences to large for Morwen to understand. I wonder, even if later, she understood the role she played in the curse?


The next TORn Amateur Symposium is a special edition: the Jubilee TAS to celebrate 60 years of FOTR! If you have an LOTR idea you would like to write about, we'd love to see your writing featured there!








Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 27 2014, 1:46am

Post #19 of 43 (327 views)
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More on Glaurung and Nienor [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I plainly disapprove of Morwen, but Nienor impresses me. She wants to honor their hosts and restrain her mother's impetuousness, while remaining brave and sensible. She's got the Hurinite stubbornness, but wishy-washy people don't make great tragic heroes. Given that she has more sense than Morwen, why does she go along with her after failing to persuade her to go home? I am with you here. I do like Nienor but not Morwen so much. As I said above, I think Mowen's self-serving and chilly pronouncement before she left leave the poor girl no choice but to come along, unless she be counted among those who would tarry and do nothing. Its a poor choice of words, delivered I am sure in a high-handed and prideful way (its all about her, after all) by Morwen that bring Nienor into Brethil.

Another thing that annoys me about Morwen: when she yells about the thirty-first man. Really, she's so suspicious she's counting? Not quite the distracted mother here, on a noble and overwhelming quest. It comes across as a bit nit-picky and far from distracted, she's as sharp as ever.

Mablung impresses me as the suffering hero in this part of the story, taking up where Beleg left off, the dutiful soldier doing his duty, and brave to the extreme (I'd love to see a movie snippet of "The Adventures of Mablung in Nargothrond." That's a story that fires the imagination.).
Why do you suppose Glaurung didn't kill Mablung or any of the others? What did he expect to gain by wiping Nienor's memory? Did he have any foresight that she'd wind up in Brethil? Didn't he risk that she'd run off into the wild like Morwen and never be seen again for years, effectively falling outside the curse and the story?


Yes, poor Mablung is sent to do a thankless job, and does it the best it could have been done likely.
Glaurung seems focused on the group of people he sees on Amon Ethir, and I think the dueling powers of perception (as its laid out) results in a bit of a draw here, leaving Mablung alive. The strike against Nienor happens with a right-out-of-Morwen's-mouth sort of boast, claiming Hurin's kinship like that. I think the idea of whatever misfortunes befall her in amnesia are the reason Glaurung takes her memories; form a symbolic POV its the Serpent up to no good again. I'm not sure of Glaurung has the foresight to see the rest of the scenario. He knows at the other end though, as he lies dying...well enough to torment Niniel/Nienor with it. So perhaps he followed or was aware of the story as it unfolded? That seems in line with the original Wyrm construct in which he himself has lieutenants and calculates the outcomes.
Another reason to join the Mablung fan club:

Quote
"Nonetheless Mablung would not rest, and with a small company he went into the wild and for three years wandered far, from Ered Wethrin even to the Mouths of Sirion, seeking for sign or tidings of the lost."


If Mablung did all this searching, why did he never come across Turin and the remnants of Haleth's people, to seek for news, at the very least?
Hmmm - is he just far South of the action?


The next TORn Amateur Symposium is a special edition: the Jubilee TAS to celebrate 60 years of FOTR! If you have an LOTR idea you would like to write about, we'd love to see your writing featured there!








(This post was edited by Brethil on Jun 27 2014, 1:49am)


cats16
Half-elven


Jun 27 2014, 3:46am

Post #20 of 43 (320 views)
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Thumbs down for Morwen. [In reply to] Can't Post

Not hard to see where Turin gets his personality. Poor Nienor, though. In her mind, her mother is the only one of the family left alive. Going with her on this quest was her only hope at recovering something she'd thought to be lost forever. She says something to this effect after Morwen's speech.


Yes!! I'd love a Beleg-Mablung team up story: the adventures of the Strongbow and the Huntsman.


In Reply To
Why do you suppose Glaurung didn't kill Mablung or any of the others?


Hmm..seems to be a theme here that perverted life can be worse than death. Glaurung uses this and twists the lives of Hurin's family to the bitter end. I think he does a similar thing to Mablung, who gives three years (nothing to an elf, but still shows that he's given up on his normal life) to searching for them.

To answer one of your earlier questions, this is where I say, "It's all downhill from here." Or I suppose movie-Bilbo would say, "I think the worst is behind us." Speaking of the films (gasp, in the RR?), to me this chapter is especially cinematic in the way events unfold. JRRT seems to point the reader toward characters with a figurative camera, performing edits and unfolding the narrative in a very visual manner. There's so much 'looking' here: looking from Amon Ethir to Nargothrond; looking back to A.E.; looking into the doors of Felagund; Mablung seeing Glaurung's shape on the hill, etc. Natural cuts like this create a larger sense of space and depth to me, which is reinforced when Mablung and Co. cross this space in between 'looking'.

Sorry for the scattered thoughts! Back to comment more shortly.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 27 2014, 11:46am

Post #21 of 43 (303 views)
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Love trumping sense [In reply to] Can't Post

Good point about Nienor. She doesn't see the sense in this adventure, but Morwen is all that she has left for family, so you're right about that obscuring her logic.

Perverted life worse than death--yes, I was thinking the same thing. I suppose when you create Orcs as perverted life, it becomes a habit for people like Morgoth. And sadists derive more pleasure from keeping their victims alive and in torment than killing them upfront. For a sadist, where's the fun in that?

Funny that you should mention how cinematic this chapter is. I was thinking exactly the same thing when I reread it!


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 27 2014, 11:56am

Post #22 of 43 (306 views)
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Is there a psychiatric nurse on board this plane? [In reply to] Can't Post

When, good thing you showed up, or I would have started talking to myself. (Not that there's anything wrong with that...Though I wouldn't be nearly so witty and hilarious as dapper Rem.)

I appreciate your observation that Turin is a man, not a child lost at a shopping mall. I might suggest Morwen feels guilty for past lack of nurturing and is trying to compensate here (when it's too late), but I'm not sure that would really stick. I am left wondering how Morwen and Turin would interact if they did meet up again (and she had her mind). Let's say she wandered into Brethil instead of Nienor and had no dragon-spell. Can't you imagine her bossing Turin around like he was still a little boy, and him going along with it?

Morally, I find great fault with her for endangering Nienor in this silly quest, and for being a burden on Mablung, and for being so haughty to him. If we could put story characters on "Ignore" lists, I'd do that with Morwen, because I've had enough of her.

Mablung and NIenor more than make up for her, however. I love them in this chapter!

Nienor seems to foreshadow Eowyn vs the Witch-king confrontation, except I suppose that she wasn't seeking death like Eowyn was. The rest of the traits are there: pride, courage, will, family loyalty, and being matched up to an opponent who is so far your psychic superior that you don't have a chance unless you have a sneaky hobbit on your side with a magic knife. While Turin and Morwen invite a lot of woes on themselves, Nienor is pure victim here.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 27 2014, 12:14pm

Post #23 of 43 (306 views)
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Shelob vs CuriousG--and you thought that spider was scary [In reply to] Can't Post

 


This is me after I ate a certain dragon and a certain spawn of Ungoliant in one meal. Any questions?


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 27 2014, 12:21pm

Post #24 of 43 (299 views)
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Untangling evil [In reply to] Can't Post

Melian's comment had me wondering too how her Girdle works (if only one could ask that politely). I'll conjecture that Turin is tainted by evil, but not wholly evil, so he could come in as a cursed little boy just as much as a blood-stained adult, because he's not an Orc, for all his faults. I don't think it would have a cleansing effect, because I see the curse at work in his episode with Saeros. (And Melian herself fretted that even in Doriath, she couldn't undo the curse's effect on Turin.)

I'm not clear on if her Girdle in automatic mode keeps out evil things like Orcs (and Glaurung?), but if there's also a manual setting, where she could keep out people she specifically didn't want to enter.

The Girdle didn't keep Beren out, nor Carcharoth. I wonder if the thing is more reputation than substance, just another game of smoke & mirrors from a gonzo magician like the Wizard of Oz. Smile


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 27 2014, 12:33pm

Post #25 of 43 (297 views)
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All that bling and no idea who he is [In reply to] Can't Post


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Maybe he is searching for identity and distinction while trying to remain hidden? An internal contradiction?

I really like that observation, Rem. Turin's identity either is or isn't defined by his weapons & armor, his names, what others think of him, his family legacy, and so on, and he's simultaneously running from his identity and running out to create a new one.

I'm suddenly reminded of the Cliffs Notes I read about Hamlet (if I have that source right), where it said that Hamlet is a confusing character, unless you've ever been a teenager. If we forget about Turin's chronological age, doesn't he seem like the average teenager in school trying to figure out who he is amongst all the competing influences? "I'm this way to my parents, I'm that way to my science teacher, I'm this way on the football field, I'm that way with my girlfriends, I want to be this when I grow up, people say I'm this way when I really feel that way but no one understands me..." Turin is the reason why we keep teenagers in school--look at the havoc they wreak on the world if they're not!

I wonder how much of the Turin story was Tolkien drawing on his own rite-of-passage angst and fictionalizing it. As a character, Turin is vexing, but most people have gone through the adolescent identity crisis stage he seems stuck in, and that makes him more understandable.

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