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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 22 2014, 4:23pm
Post #1 of 26
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Dating the Fourth Age.
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Tolkien wrote that the end of the Third Age would have happened about 6000 years ago. That corresponds fairly well with the Modern Hebrew Calendar which places the beginning of the world at 3761 BCE. We can tentatively assign that year to the Fall of Barad-dur and the end of the War of the Ring. That would make the beginning of the Fourth Age at 3759 BCE. Tolkien never indicated when the World changed again so that the geography of Middle-earth was altered to the geography of the modern world; however, it would have had to have been some event analogous to the Biblical Great Flood (2349 BCE). Both might have been different retellings of the same event. So, we might have something like this:
THE FOURTH AGE (3759 - 2349 BCE)
The One Ring is destroyed and the Tower of Barad-dur falls in the year 3761 BCE, bringing an end to the Third Age of Middle-earth. A tribe of Haradrim that we will call (for the sake of convenience) the Tribe of Adame, freed from the yoke of Sauron's oppression, begins a new Reckoning of Years. The Fourth Age begins in 3759 BCE (or in 3021 (TA) in the Reckoning of Gondor. Throughout the Fourth Age, the Elves that remain in Middle-earth diminish. In time, the Elves fade to the point that their presence cannot be easily perceived by common Men. The numbers of the Dwarves also diminish and they withdraw into their Halls until they become little more than legends and figures of folklore in the tales of Men. Hobbits become more shy of "Big Folk" and by the end of the Age are rarely seen.
In the year 2349 BCE a great cataclysm alters the geography of the world. The lands and oceans of Middle-earth are greatly changed. The continents take on their modern appearance and Arda becomes the world that we recognize today. The kingdoms of Gondor and Arnor fall and the last vestiges of Numenor are wiped out. The Four Age ends.
Incidentally, this also allows us to determine hypothetical dates (in modern terms) for the beginning and end of the Third and Second Ages.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jun 22 2014, 4:30pm)
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Glassary
Rivendell
Jun 22 2014, 4:51pm
Post #2 of 26
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Otaku-Sempai I like to think that your hypothesis for middle earth/earth time is accurate. Love the idea in my own mind that all of this took place here.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 23 2014, 3:31pm
Post #3 of 26
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A Modern Timeline for Middle-earth
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Otaku-Sempai I like to think that your hypothesis for middle earth/earth time is accurate. Love the idea in my own mind that all of this took place here.
Thanks. Let's apply my original reasoning to the Elder Days:
The First Age (??,??? - 10,222 BCE)
- The Valar create the Two Trees; Beginning of the Count of Time.
- The Elves awake in Cuivienen.
- The Years of the Sun begin approximately in the year 10,822 BCE. The Sun rises in the West and Men awaken.
The Second Age (10,221 - 6780 BCE)
- 10,221 BCE: The Second Age begins with the foundation of the Grey Havens, and of Lindon.
- 10,189 BCE: The Edain reach Numenor.
- 9021 BCE: Sauron endeavors to seduce the Eldar.
- 8721 BCE: The Elven-smiths instructed by Sauron begin to forge the Rings of Power.
- 8711 BCE: Celebrimbor forges the Three Rings.
- 8621 BCE: Sauron forges the One Ring in Orodruin.
- 8528 BCE: War of the Elves and Sauron begins. The Three Rings are hidden.
- 8521 BCE: Sauron is defeated when Tar-Minastir sends a great navy from Numenor to Lindon.
- 6959 BCE: Sauron is taken as prisoner to Numenor.
- 6902 BCE: Ar-Pharazon assails Valinor. Downfall of Numenor.
- 6791 BCE: The Last Alliance of Elves and Men is formed.
- 6787 BCE: The Battle of Dagorlad.
- 6780 BCE: Sauron overthrown; Isildur takes the One Ring. The End of the Second Age.
The Third Age (6780 - 3759 BCE)
- 6778 BCE: Isildur and his three elder sons are slain. The One Ring is lost.
- 5780 BCE: At approximately this time the Istari arrive in Middle-earth.
- 4657 BCE: Gandalf goes to Dol Guldur; Sauron hides in the East. The Watchful Peace begins.
- 4260 BCE: The Watchful Peace ends. Sauron returns to Dol Guldur.
- 4257 BCE: The White Council is formed.
- 4010 BCE: Smaug the Dragon descends on Erebor.
- 3930 BCE: Gandalf discovers Sauron in Dol Guldur; receives map and key from Thrain.
- 3839 BCE: The Quest of Erebor is undertaken by Thorin and Company.
- 3762 BCE: The War of the Ring begins. Frodo Baggins takes the One Ring to Rivendell.
- 3761 BCE: The One Ring is destroyed in Orodruin. The War of the Ring ends.
- 3759 BCE: The Ringbearers depart Middle-earth. The End of the Third Age.
The Fourth Age (3759 - 2349 BCE)
- 3759 BCE: The Fourth Age begins in the Reckoning of Gondor.
- 3758 BCE: With the beginning of this year the Fourth Age begins in the count of the Shire.
- 3639 BCE: Aragorn, King Elessar of the Reunited Kingdom passes away.
- 2349 BCE: A cataclysm strikes Arda and restructures all the lands of Middle-earth. End of the Fourth Age.
The Fifth Age (2349 BCE - ????)
- Modern history begins.
Actually, the ancient Mesopotamian civilization of Sumer (or Sumeria) goes back about 6000 years. It would have existed in the time of the Fourth Age (perhaps even during the late Third Age).
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 23 2014, 11:22pm
Post #4 of 26
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The Fifth Age (2349 - 800 BCE)
- New nations of Men arise from the remnants of Middle-earth.
- 2200 BCE: Estimated completion of Stonehenge.
- 800 BCE: Rise of Greek City-states.
The Sixth Age (800 BCE - 476 CE)
- The Age of Classical Antiquity includes the Classical Greek period and the rise of the Roman Empire.
- 776 BCE: First Recorded Olympic Games.
- 476 CE: Abdication of Romulus Augustus, last Western Roman Emperor, markes the end of the Sixth Age.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea
Jun 25 2014, 10:47am
Post #5 of 26
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Could the end of the fourth age end with Noah´s flood?
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The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true!
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 25 2014, 1:08pm
Post #6 of 26
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Although (not to tick anyone off), the Great Flood as related in legend is as much a fictional event as the sinking of Numenor. At the same time, I do think that the Flood myth was based upon some real event that was smaller in scale, just as Atlantis (and by extention Numenor) may have been based on the fall of the Minoan civilization.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Cirashala
Valinor
Jun 27 2014, 6:18am
Post #7 of 26
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though I don't remember where I read it, that there has actually been secular geological findings that support the idea of a great flood back around the time period when Noah would have lived in the bible.
Apparently the layers of sediment and rock in many areas from around the world indicate that floodwaters happened a very long time ago, in the BC times.
Anyone is free to choose what they believe for sure. I'm a Christian but I don't go pushing it on others. I just recall reading an article online about this several years ago. It would be interesting to find it again though 
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 27 2014, 2:56pm
Post #8 of 26
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though I don't remember where I read it, that there has actually been secular geological findings that support the idea of a great flood back around the time period when Noah would have lived in the bible.
Apparently the layers of sediment and rock in many areas from around the world indicate that floodwaters happened a very long time ago, in the BC times.
That sounds like the type of story perpetuated by Flood supporters that is not necessarily based on good evidence or based on poor evaluation of the available evidence. However, to be sure, one would need--not the original article, but--the findings to which the original article was referencing. If such evidence were truly consistant then we would expect the remains of pre-flood civilizaitions (such as Sumer) to all be covered by such sediment as the article mentions. That does not seem to be the case. Then there are civilizations such as the Egyptians and the Mayans that continued right through the period when the Great Flood would have had to have occurred. What we do see, from about 2200 to 2100 BCE, is a severe aridification event that brougtht about world-wide droughts.
I'm wondering if Tolkien's own estimate for the end of the Third Age isn't inadequate, since archaeological evidence for the earliest known civilizations goes back to almost 6000 years; perhaps the ages of Middle-earth should be pushed back even further into pre-history (including the end of the Fourth Age).
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jun 27 2014, 3:02pm)
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Cirashala
Valinor
Jun 27 2014, 6:25pm
Post #9 of 26
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Tolkien's world certainly does seem to at least pre-date the Christianization of Europe, so we know it goes back at least that far.
I bet it will be a subject of long debate that will never be confirmed for sure 
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Jun 27 2014, 7:48pm
Post #10 of 26
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This issue might be as little too deep for this forum...
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...we would expect the remains of pre-flood civilizaitions (such as Sumer) to all be covered by such sediment as the article mentions....Then there are civilizations such as the Egyptians and the Mayans that continued right through the period when the Great Flood would have had to have occurred.
Who ever said that Sumer and the other civilisations were definitely antediluvian? We'd need to prove that first, before we come to any conclusions. Not trying to start an argument, but this under-lying fact in your statement could be extremely hard to verify, depending on your point of view on the scope of the Deluge.
If you think the Deluge to be a highly localised event, or many smaller events, it adds more guess-work as to the exact location and date--some civilisations affected, others not.
If you think it to be a single, more expansive event (Melting ice from the Ice Age, is one theory I've heard) it might be a bit easier with more records and civilisations involved.
If you think it to be globe-spanning,(Ark and all, perhaps) then it might be a bit easier to establish a date given the mass extinction that would occur, making all surviving civilisation postdiluvian.
It's a lot of work and evidence that many scientists, researchers, and yes, the occasional crack-pot and humbug, have devoted countless days and years to study. Sorting through all their findings and proofs and separating fact from fiction would require a lot of time and knowledge--much more time than could be reasonably addressed in this limited thread here on TORn.
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 28 2014, 12:02am
Post #11 of 26
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This issue might be as little too deep for this forum... You make some interesting points. Nonetheless, a cataclysm that somehow corresponds to the Great Flood both in timing and in having a tremendous effect on landforms and the oceans makes a convenient marker for the transition betweeh Middle-earth and the modern world.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Jun 28 2014, 2:47am
Post #12 of 26
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Very handy. Perhaps the Professor appropriated the idea in a very hobbit-esque manner. Re-purposing!
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 28 2014, 12:12pm
Post #13 of 26
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Very handy. Perhaps the Professor appropriated the idea in a very hobbit-esque manner. Re-purposing!
Tolkien did something similar with the legend of Atlantis, literally turning it into Numenor (Atalante). I was using the Hebraic reckoning for the Great Flood, but of course the Sumerian version places the Flood before the reign of Gilgamesh (around 2700 BCE) and the person chosen by the god Enki to buld an ark is Utnapishtim, who (along with his wife) is afterwards granted immortality.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 29 2014, 8:47pm
Post #14 of 26
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The archaeological evidence for the earliest known cities seem to go back to approximately 6000 years (to about 4100 BCE). That actually takes us as far back as the late Third Age or the beginning of the Fourth Age--if we want to stay with Tolkien's estimate for the time of the War of the Ring. If we still suppose that the Great Flood (or an analogious event) was responsible for altering the geography of Middle-earth to the known geography of the modern world then those earlest known civilizations must have been antediluvian. We can also guess that those early Mesopotamian cities were originally located in the region of Middle-earth we think of as Near Harad; at around the same time, the Easterling city Luoyang arose in the region that would become modern China. Using Sumerian accounts, including the epic of Gilgamesh, we can date the Great Cataclysm back to before 2700 BCE. That allows us to modify our timeline for the Ages of Middle-earth:
The First Age (??,??? - 10,222 BCE)
- The Valar create the Two Trees; Beginning of the Count of Time.
- The Elves awake in Cuivienen.
- The Years of the Sun begin approximately in the year 10,822 BCE. The Sun rises in the West and Men awaken.
The Second Age (10,221 - 6780 BCE)
- 10,221 BCE: The Second Age begins with the foundation of the Grey Havens, and of Lindon.
- 10,189 BCE: The Edain reach Numenor.
- 9021 BCE: Sauron endeavors to seduce the Eldar.
- 8721 BCE: The Elven-smiths instructed by Sauron begin to forge the Rings of Power.
- 8711 BCE: Celebrimbor forges the Three Rings.
- 8621 BCE: Sauron forges the One Ring in Orodruin.
- 8528 BCE: War of the Elves and Sauron begins. The Three Rings are hidden.
- 8521 BCE: Sauron is defeated when Tar-Minastir sends a great navy from Numenor to Lindon.
- 6959 BCE: Sauron is taken as prisoner to Numenor.
- 6902 BCE: Ar-Pharazon assails Valinor. Downfall of Numenor.
- 6791 BCE: The Last Alliance of Elves and Men is formed.
- 6787 BCE: The Battle of Dagorlad.
- 6780 BCE: Sauron overthrown; Isildur takes the One Ring. The End of the Second Age.
The Third Age (6780 - 3759 BCE)
- 6778 BCE: Isildur and his three elder sons are slain. The One Ring is lost.
- 5780 BCE: At approximately this time the Istari arrive in Middle-earth.
- 4657 BCE: Gandalf goes to Dol Guldur; Sauron hides in the East. The Watchful Peace begins.
- 4260 BCE: The Watchful Peace ends. Sauron returns to Dol Guldur.
- 4257 BCE: The White Council is formed.
- 4100 BCE: The Sumer civilization arises in Near Harad in what will become Mesopotamia.
- 4010 BCE: Smaug the Dragon descends on Erebor. Around this time the city known today as Luoyang (in China) is founded in the East.
- 3930 BCE: Gandalf discovers Sauron in Dol Guldur; receives map and key from Thrain.
- 3839 BCE: The Quest of Erebor is undertaken by Thorin and Company.
- 3762 BCE: The War of the Ring begins. Frodo Baggins takes the One Ring to Rivendell.
- 3761 BCE: The One Ring is destroyed in Orodruin. The War of the Ring ends.
- 3759 BCE: The Ringbearers depart Middle-earth. The End of the Third Age.
The Fourth Age (3759 - 2650 BCE)
- 3759 BCE: The Fourth Age begins in the Reckoning of Gondor.
- 3758 BCE: With the beginning of this year the Fourth Age begins in the count of the Shire.
- 3639 BCE: Aragorn, King Elessar of the Reunited Kingdom passes away.
- 2650 BCE (estimated): A cataclysm strikes Arda and restructures all the lands of Middle-earth. End of the Fourth Age.
The Fifth Age (2650 - 800 BCE)
- New nations of Men arise from the remnants of Middle-earth.
- 2700 BCD: Gilgamesh is said to arise as a Sumerian king.
- 2200 BCE: Estimated completion of Stonehenge.
- 800 BCE: Rise of Greek City-states.
The Sixth Age (800 BCE - 476 CE)
- The Age of Classical Antiquity includes the Classical Greek period and the rise of the Roman Empire.
- 776 BCE: First Recorded Olympic Games.
- 476 CE: Abdication of Romulus Augustus, last Western Roman Emperor, marks the end of the Sixth Age.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jun 29 2014, 8:48pm)
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Cirashala
Valinor
Jun 29 2014, 10:48pm
Post #15 of 26
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what I still find interesting to note
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is that, by your estimation, the world has only been in existence for a little more than 10,000 years- the same estimates that arise from the Biblical time periods suggested in history
Carbon dating has the world at millions of years old, however it isn't 100% foolproof, as we can only go by carbon breakdown speed within the span of a human lifetime, and extrapolate that to be the same rate it breaks down through millions of years. And it may not break down at the exact same speed as it does at first, thus negating those results as inconclusive and not foolproof. But by Tolkien's estimation, it could very well be that his faith may have partially influenced this figure as well.
Something to note, at any rate
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DanielLB
Immortal
Jun 30 2014, 7:17am
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And wildly off topic, sorry.
No scientific method is 100% foolproof - as long as the data is calibrated and analysed correctly then the speed of carbon breakdown should be accurately accounted for in any study. Modern techniques are accurate to about 1%.
The half-life of radioactive carbon is 5730 years - way too short to date anything beyond about 50,000 years, so carbon dating is not used to measure the age of the Earth. Since it should only be used to date an object younger than 20,000-50,000 years old (bones, hair, cloth), it is more commonly used to date "modern" history. It's definitely not used to date the age of the Earth. Which is why there are plenty of other more accurate methods - radiometric techniques (including the decay of potassium, uranium), tephra analysis, dendrochronology, pollen and ice core analysis, biological proxies, all of which allow us to look further back in time. The most important conclusion from carbon dating is that the last glaciation period started to subside around 20,000 years ago.
(This post was edited by DanielLB on Jun 30 2014, 7:25am)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 30 2014, 1:39pm
Post #17 of 26
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is that, by your estimation, the world has only been in existence for a little more than 10,000 years- the same estimates that arise from the Biblical time periods suggested in history Carbon dating has the world at millions of years old, however it isn't 100% foolproof, as we can only go by carbon breakdown speed within the span of a human lifetime, and extrapolate that to be the same rate it breaks down through millions of years. And it may not break down at the exact same speed as it does at first, thus negating those results as inconclusive and not foolproof. But by Tolkien's estimation, it could very well be that his faith may have partially influenced this figure as well. Something to note, at any rate
Well, who's to say that millions, or billions, of years didn't pass before the wakening of Elves or Men? Also, carbon-dating isn't the only dating method--or the most accurate; it doesn't figure at all into the dating of the Universe from the Big Bang or even in dating the age of the Earth itself. It is probably impossible to fully integrate mythology and/or religious belief with the reality of a 4.5 billion year-old planet in a 13.8 billion year-old Universe. In my younger days I did adopt the position of deific evolution, seeing God's hand in the development of our ancestors into the particular form of homo sapiens. Tolkien was probably unaware of the process of continental drift or considered it irrelevant to the formation of his invented mythology. He did introduce the idea that elements of The Silmarillion represented a myth within a myth, being filtered through the perceptions and preconceptions of the Men of Numenor (rather than being simply an account of the Elder Days as related accurately by the Eldar). This brings the idea of the Flat Earth from before the Change of the World into doubt as well as the story of the Sun originally rising in the West (and even the account of the Two Trees).
We need to keep in mind that Tolkien was writing an invented myth, not an invented history despite the manner in which he ultimately presented it (translations from the Red Book).
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jun 30 2014, 1:44pm)
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Cirashala
Valinor
Jul 1 2014, 12:30am
Post #18 of 26
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Tolkien created a mythos of England with his stories, and that they aren't really based on history
However, IIRC the original topic was where Tolkien's world would have existed had it really happened within history, as his conceit of his mythos indicated
Therefore, it would be logical to consider real life events (or what one believes are real life events) within the discussion to try and come to probable conclusions as to where Tolkien's world timelines would have been placed within the realm of real world history
For me, I would think that the drowning of Numenor could possibly coincide with the religious belief of Noah and the flood, in the term of (unintentional, as Tolkien disliked it) allegory. Basically, Noah and his offspring would equal Elendil and his two sons, Isildur and Anarion in the mythos Much like how the Valar would resemble the territorial spirits within Christian belief.
Either way, Tolkien had in his mind a "what if it really happened in history" attitude when it came to his stories, and wrote them with the idea that the elves recorded the Silmarillion, that Bilbo recorded the Quest of Erebor, and that Frodo recorded the War of the Ring in Lord of the Rings.
That being said, is it really superfluous to suggest one's own beliefs of real world events to help date where Tolkien's mythos could have been located within real world history? Especially when the author's personal religious beliefs are very similar to one's own (I'm Christian, but protestant not Catholic)?
If Tolkien believed in biblical events and time periods, then I have little doubt he would have assigned his own personal mythos to surround the dates of the world's existence as related to his personal belief in the age of the real world. Or at least I would think so.
(This post was edited by Cirashala on Jul 1 2014, 12:32am)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 1 2014, 1:20am
Post #19 of 26
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For me, I would think that the drowning of Numenor could possibly coincide with the religious belief of Noah and the flood, in the term of (unintentional, as Tolkien disliked it) allegory. Basically, Noah and his offspring would equal Elendil and his two sons, Isildur and Anarion in the mythos Much like how the Valar would resemble the territorial spirits within Christian belief. Either way, Tolkien had in his mind a "what if it really happened in history" attitude when it came to his stories, and wrote them with the idea that the elves recorded the Silmarillion, that Bilbo recorded the Quest of Erebor, and that Frodo recorded the War of the Ring in Lord of the Rings.
Professor Tolkien really did base Numenor on the legend of Atlantis (which, in turn, might have been inspired by the fall of the Minoan civilization on Crete). After Numenor sank it was even called Atalante. The hypothetical timing of the Great Flood makes it ideal as a marker for the transition from Arda and Middle-earth to the modern world. It just makes more sense to place the Flood at the end of the Fourth (or even Fifth) Age.
That being said, is it really superfluous to suggest one's own beliefs of real world events to help date where Tolkien's mythos could have been located within real world history? Especially when the author's personal religious beliefs are very similar to one's own (I'm Christian, but protestant not Catholic)?
If Tolkien believed in biblical events and time periods, then I have little doubt he would have assigned his own personal mythos to surround the dates of the world's existence as related to his personal belief in the age of the real world. Or at least I would think so.
I've done much the same with this timeline, combining real-world and mythical events into the history of Middle-earth and the days after. I don't think that it was coincidence that Tolkien gave a figure of 6000 years ago for the end of the Third Age. I think that he intentionally placed the start of the Fourth Age at about the same time as the Jewish and Fundamentalist Christian estimate for the Creation of the World. If not then it is a heck of a coincidence. What Tolkien's personal beliefs about Creation and the book of Genesis were, I cannot say. The Catholic Church takes a more progressive stance today then its historical view that condemned Galileo for insisting that the Earth revolved around the Sun and that the Universe was more complex than had been believed.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Cirashala
Valinor
Jul 1 2014, 1:37am
Post #20 of 26
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I had forgotten about Atlantis
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Good point
It is also possible that more of ME was flooded, and gave the shape that Europe is today, because the ice bays of Forochel and such (aka the ice age glaciers) receded and flooded portions of ME while doing so. Therefore, it's conceivable that ME pre-history could have occurred during the beginnings of the Ice Age, and after the glaciers descended, then melted, we got what is now Europe today
At any rate, your point of 6,000 years coinciding with biblical timing does make sense in a way too. Though I personally would put creation of the world at about 10,000 years ago, rather than six.
And I think one thing we can agree on is that the Ice Age happened
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 1 2014, 2:00pm
Post #21 of 26
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I think we would have to posit a more dramatic (and violent?) event than simple glacial melting to explain the massive reshaping of the continents and oceans that would need to occur to alter Middle-earth and the Dark Lands of Arda into the modern world. There would need to have been increased volcanic activity and earthquakes to cause some of the tremendous shifts in landforms. What I find interesting in the real world is how geographically recent is the break-up of the supercontinent of Pangea (within the last 100,000,000 years or so), still long before our ancestors were anything more than small, rodent-like mammals scurrying under the feet of the dinosaurs.
You will have to take the 6000-year vs. 10,000-year figure up with the ancient Hebrews and the other civilizations of ancient Mesopotamia. By coincidence, about 10,000 years ago is when Robert E. Howard's Hyborean Age of Conan the Cimmerian would have been set--sometime after the sinking of his version of Atlantis. REH's Hyborean Age didn't resember the modern world much more than did Tolkien's Middle-earth.
And I think one thing we can agree on is that the Ice Age happened
If I remember right, there have been five major Ice Ages. You're thinking of the most recent!
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Cirashala
Valinor
Jul 1 2014, 6:07pm
Post #22 of 26
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well, the bible doesn't say HOW long each of the 7 days of creation were ;)
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For all we know, they could have been a million years long each
I do see that we may just have to agree to disagree, simply because neither one of us were there at the time, so in the end of it all it simply boils down to what each of us believe happened. For me, I believe in the creation story. For you, you believe in what science believes to have
happened.
Either way, written documentation only goes so far. There are definitely hints of creationism even within science- Mesopotamia is located next to two of the three rivers found in the garden of Eden. I think we can both agree that ancient Mesopotamia was unusually fertile and the earliest known civilization of humans
Pangaea broke up- wouldn't that be similar to God creating land, then saying for it to part and create oceans?
There is evidence that plants used to be much larger, indicating a very humid environment. Doesn't that sound similar to the story of Noah, and how it rained for the first time? Plants in a sealed greenhouse do not need rain- but they do at least need a great deal of humidity to grow.
And with the Big Bang- God said it, and it happened instantly. Doesn't that sound very similar to the scientific theory of the big bang- where a reaction happened and it created our universe from nothing to something?
It's thinks like that where I believe science actually backs up the creation story.
If you choose not to believe in creationism, that's perfectly fine I'm no bible thumper, and don't ever intend to force my beliefs on others. But it won't change the fact that I accept the story of creationism within the world.
So if we have to agree to disagree, I'm good with that Thanks for a very interesting back and forth for sure- and for being respectful. I know the topic of creation vs science can be a very sticky subject for a lot of people
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 1 2014, 7:14pm
Post #23 of 26
(2314 views)
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I suppose we will need to disagree.
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For Biblical Creation to have much truth, each of the six 'days' it took would have had to have lasted for over two billion years. Earth would have been created late on the third day and the first life would have appeared on the fourth. Either that, or you would need to believe that the Universe was 'created old'. I've also heard the idea that fossils were placed within the Earth at the time that it was created, but a God who would do (or allow) that would be such a dirty cheat as to be unworthy of worship! If there is a God then I hope He would feel obliged to play fair.
It wasn't just humidity, but also a higher oxygen content in the atmosphere that allowed for plants, insects and arthropods to be much larger tens of millions of years ago. Funny, but I don't remember anything in the Bible that indicated that it never rained before Noah. The story of the first rainbow makes for a nice folktale, but the laws of optics would have been the same before the Flood as after. How life began is still a mystery (you'll be glad to know), but the process of evolution is a proven fact. It is even observable on a small scale.
The difference between Religion and Science is that Science is not based in faith. We know how the laws of motion work. We know how optics and chemistry work, and we know the speed of light in a vacuum. We (mostly) understand the laws of physics and astrophysics. What we don't know, we can hope to discover. If what we thought we knew is proved wrong (and we are conscientious scientists) we accept our mistakes, learn from them, and move on. On that note, I'm going to stop here for now, before I get preachy.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Cirashala
Valinor
Jul 1 2014, 8:13pm
Post #24 of 26
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your beliefs are your own, as are mine. Though for the record, I don't believe the fossils were placed here deliberately as an attempt to fool us nowadays That sounds like a conspiracy theory more than anything else (especially since this is the first I've heard of that theory).
I love science, believe it or not, but there are things I don't think are accurate. Human evolution no, but some genetics surviving through procreation and others dying out yes (if certain body types were not deemed attractive and didn't reproduce on a large scale, then that particular genetic makeup would no doubt cease after a few generations- much like the overall preference of tall men by ladies in society has caused overall average height of offspring to increase over time).
However, I do believe in animal evolution. Adaptation would probably be a better term for what I think though- that as the world's climates changed, so also did God adjust the genetics in animals to adapt to the changes so they would continue to grow. I don't know why the dinosaurs went extinct, but it's still plausible that there came a point where God saw that humans and them vied for the top of the food chain and changed the climate so they would die from lack of enough food. Or the plant size grew smaller as climate changed and caused the same type of famine.
As I mentioned (though I might not have been clear) it's possible that a "day" in heaven is far longer than a "day" on earth. Or, the sun's gravitational pull increased over time and pulled the planets closer to it as the star grew. The further a planet is away from the sun, the longer its respective day will be.
I would need to double check on that story- it's been a while since I've read it, and my memory isn't that good anymore (sleep disorder and all that).
I enjoy physics, I enjoy biology, I love vulcanology, plate tectonics, etc and was darn good at it. I was also a pre-med major before the sleep disorder caused me to have trouble remembering class. But what I have noticed with some theories that dismiss creation, it fails the scientific method. The big bang for example- it's happened once, and only once. Something came from nothing, and the scientific method states that a conclusive law has to be repeatable with the same results.
So why hasn't it repeated? Why can we, as humans, not reproduce the idea that we can obtain something from absolutely nothing to begin with, even on a small scale? For the big bang to have become an accurate theory, or even law, like Newton's laws of motion and gravity, it would need to be reproducible.
God said it, and it happened. Something pre-dating the big bang must have been in place, simply by process of elimination. Because you can't start with something from nothing, a phenomenon that, unlike the big bang, has been proven countless times over, something has to have pre-dated it. And the only conclusion I can come up with is that God said it, and it happened, and because it happened, He didn't need to say it again.
Science, religion. Both have to have some measure of faith involved.
But we'll agree to disagree, and drop the subject if you prefer. As I said, it's been a very interesting and informative discussion, and I enjoy those, even if the other person does not agree. I like seeing different viewpoints on things without fear of judgment or derision, and you certainly have given me that So thank you, and mae govannen 
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 1 2014, 8:45pm
Post #25 of 26
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Even the scientific method has to adapt to circumstances.
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I enjoy physics, I enjoy biology, I love vulcanology, plate tectonics, etc and was darn good at it. I was also a pre-med major before the sleep disorder caused me to have trouble remembering class. But what I have noticed with some theories that dismiss creation, it fails the scientific method. The big bang for example- it's happened once, and only once. Something came from nothing, and the scientific method states that a conclusive law has to be repeatable with the same results.
So why hasn't it repeated? Why can we, as humans, not reproduce the idea that we can obtain something from absolutely nothing to begin with, even on a small scale? For the big bang to have become an accurate theory, or even law, like Newton's laws of motion and gravity, it would need to be reproducible.
That is why we build machines like the CERN particle accelerator, so we can test theories about the early Universe (among other things). No, we can't go back in time (yet!) and have to rely on what we can observe through our telescopes and the experiments that we can perform today--such as attempting to reproduce the conditions that existed just microseconds after the Big Bang. Paleontologists have to rely on fossil evidence and what can be learned by studying it and comparing it to living creatures of today. That's how we discovered that birds are descended from theropods similar to the velociraptors. Even so, we could not know that for sure until new technologies allowed us to look at the fossil evidence in new ways. We know from the radioactive iridium left behind in the Earth's crust that an asteroid or comet struck the Yucatan Peninula about 65 million years ago and brought about the extinction event that killed off the dinosaurs and their ilk (the impact might have also set off other, terrestrial events that contributed to the die-off). If some Creator nudged such a body in our direction, I'm not sure if that is good news or bad news for us; if He gets ticked off enough, He could do it again. On the other hand, if it was not an accident then it may be less likely to happen again by accident.
Another entire Universe might have existed before the Big Bang. We might have been born from its death as it contracted into a single Black Hole. Unfortunately, it currently looks like our own Universe is not going to go through a period of contraction leading to a 'Big Crunch'. The expansion looks to have no end other than to eventually fade (a bit like the fate of the Elves who remained in Middle-earth). Luckilly for us, that is still many billions of years in the future.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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