|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
SaulComposer
Rohan
Jun 18 2014, 4:26am
Post #1 of 34
(949 views)
Shortcut
|
|
The Nine, Good and Evil
|
Can't Post
|
|
’The Nine, Good and Evil’
In Tolkien’s Legendarium, we are introduced to Nine Dark servants of the Lord of the Rings. They themselves were Lords once, but Sauron had given them Rings of Power. At first they won glory and fame, and became powerful themselves, but slow with time, the dark power of the ring had begun to sink in, and captivate them entirely, and their hearts begun to turn evil, and their minds to wickedness. Aside from the spiritual internal turnover to the worst, their physical appearance also begun to change, and they literally thinned out, and became wraiths, totally invisible to mortal eyes.
This philosophy is of unbelievable importance, I really admire Tolkien for pointing this out to all of us. It runs totally parallel to my worldview about the condition of the human state whether to the good or the bad. We all know of the negative effect acts of evilness have on the human soul, its corrupts , it darkens and it enslaves, slowly but surely, as time elapses, bad behavior takes hold, and if one is late to shake them off, and turn to goodness, then darkness descends and the person becomes addicted to it. Though, there is absolutely nothing new here, nothing that anyone of us here doesn't know, for everyone understands that doing good builds goodness within us, but doing bad, builds bad, but the New thing is that its not only our internal spiritual dimension that is effected negatively, its also our physical being. Acts of evil darkens our souls, and it eats away at our physical bodies as well.
The popular opinion is to see, that Tolkien was simply telling us a story, that has no real significance to us on a personal level. I believe that through his stories, and the ideas that are found within his stories, he was telling us something about ourselves, the things that can happen to humanity on a grand scale, and individually on a personal level. These Nine, were regular mortal Men, though of nobility, still they were limited just like any other man. Their corruption begun slowly, and as the evil sunk within their souls, their bodies were swallowed up by the darkness, and the eye of a moral man could not see them anymore, they became one with darkness, as if they have lived in another dimension. I believe they did live in another dimension, and I believe that Tolkien was telling the story about them after their passing, meaning they died and then they became these wraiths. The reason I believe that Tolkien was telling us about these wraiths after their death and not while they were alive, is because while alive, they could have changed, if they so chose, but there came a point where Choice was taken away from them entirely, and they were doing only evil, and as the evil intensified, they passed away from the living, and they became wraiths, dark spirits that are summoned by the forces of darkness to rein terror and fright.
There are many things going on here, We have parallels between the soul and the body, when the soul ascends the body ascends with it, when it descends into darkness the body follows through, this is on a personal level. On a universal level, when a person falls into darkness, he brings down the world with him down to darkness, and the opposite it true too, when he lifts himself to the side of good, the world is uplifted with him to a higher state of existence. Now lets try to understand the concept of ‘Nine’. Is there something significant with this number or this is simply a random gibberish with no real meaning? The interesting thing about this number that if you multiply it by any combination of Nine, it always turns back to Nine. For example: 9X9 = 81 and 81 in turn add to 9 like this: 8+1 = 9. How about something more complex? 99x99= 9801 which again shoots back to Nine, like this 9+8+0+1 = 18 and that again turns into Nine 1+8= 9. Whatever you do, it always comes back to Nine. This means that this number stands for Truth, its a categorical, and logical conclusive numeral, that embodies the quality of truth, which is unchanging, unyielding and everlasting.
This creates a dilemma , how can The Truth be represented by Nine Evil wicked Ringwraiths? Well, the secret it, that its Not. Tolkien thought of an Idea. Lets create a balance of power, a counterforce for goodness, by creating a Fellowship that is also composed of Nine, and that truly and really stands for Truth. These Fellowship which is made up of Aragorn, Gandalf, Frodo, Sam, Legolas, Gimli, Boromir, Pippin and Merry. So we have two groups, One for Light, and another for Darkness inevitably destined to collide. Both are strong, and both are powerful, one can’t be weaker and one can’t be more powerful.
This arrangement had to be, so the phenomenon of choice will be intact and fair. Both these forces collide and a great battle for the future of all good peoples begins, yet the balance of power hangs on a thread, sway it but a little and all can be lost, that’s how extremely paralleled are these two camps. But even though the race is so close, and the risks are many, Goodness has an upper hand. All that is needed is to take that Ring and just drop it over the mountain. That’s all. A little motivation is all that is needed, and the Light comes right away. Though simply said then done, both the message and the lesson are powerful. It takes only one simple decision within the human mind to sway towards goodness, to take the risk, and to be willing to fight and go all the way, even though there might be setbacks, and even though the journey if fraught with peril and danger, it only takes one less then a second decision to begin the quest and travel, and the rest is history. Upon that decision, no Orc, or Wraith, No dragon or Dark Lord, or even a snaky little creature like Gollum can fail you. There will be setbacks, and temporary failures, but the battle has been already won, in that instantaneous decision in the mind and heart to be willing to go all the way.
Regards,
Saul
Music!
(This post was edited by SaulComposer on Jun 18 2014, 4:39am)
|
|
|
Meneldor
Valinor
Jun 18 2014, 4:56am
Post #2 of 34
(729 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I believe that the battle is won in that instant of decision.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
And it is followed by another decision, and another, and another. Often we make wrong decisions, surrendering to evil, but we learn its ways and make wiser choices next time, and the struggle continues. One instant followed by the next, until the battle has ended, and then it's time to prepare for the next battle. As long as life endures, the decisions must be made, over and over again.
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters; These see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep.
|
|
|
SaulComposer
Rohan
Jun 18 2014, 5:04am
Post #3 of 34
(713 views)
Shortcut
|
But you need that first decision to get the ball rolling...
Cheers
Music!
|
|
|
DanielLB
Immortal
Jun 18 2014, 7:19am
Post #4 of 34
(731 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I'd go for a random gibberish with no real meaning.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Now lets try to understand the concept of ‘Nine’. Is there something significant with this number or this is simply a random gibberish with no real meaning? The interesting thing about this number that if you multiply it by any combination of Nine, it always turns back to Nine. For example: 9X9 = 81 and 81 in turn add to 9 like this: 8+1 = 9. How about something more complex? 99x99= 9801 which again shoots back to Nine, like this 9+8+0+1 = 18 and that again turns into Nine 1+8= 9. Whatever you do, it always comes back to Nine. This means that this number stands for Truth, its a categorical, and logical conclusive numeral, that embodies the quality of truth, which is unchanging, unyielding and everlasting.
Other than being a result of how digital roots work - the number you get when you repeatedly add the digits of a number together until you arrive at a single digit. Since we have 10 numbers, we have 9 digital roots. Adding up the the numbers from 1-20:
1 = 1
2 = 2
3 = 3
4 = 4
5 = 5
6 = 6
7 = 7
8 = 8
9 = 9
10 =1
11 =2
12 = 3
13 = 4
14 =5
15 =6
16 =7
17 = 8
18 = 9
19 = 10 = 1
20 = 2
21 = 3
[..]
That leaves us with a pattern, 12345678912345678912 ...
Now, the reason it always comes back to 9 is because it is always in the same place in the sequence. In other words, if you always count 9 from the beginning, you will land on 9. However, if you count 4 from the beginning, you will land on different numbers (4, 8, 3, 7...). Which means that if we only had 8 numbers in our system then 7 would be your everlasting number.
It's just an artifact of being the highest single-digit number in our decimal system.
|
|
|
Morthoron
Gondor
Jun 18 2014, 11:12am
Post #5 of 34
(708 views)
Shortcut
|
they faded. Tolkien was explicit in several passages regarding their undying wraithdom.
Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.
|
|
|
squire
Half-elven
Jun 18 2014, 11:41am
Post #6 of 34
(693 views)
Shortcut
|
I also thought that it is a common error to confuse the numeral 9 and its manipulations according to our decimal arithmetic, with the number nine which is universal and unchanging and appears in an unlimited number of forms besides the numeral '9'. For instance, nine is also written 'IX' in the Roman system -- except when it's written 'VIIII' in the same system. In neither case, of course, do the multiples of those numerals have the property that decimal '9' does, wherein the digits of the multiples add to nine.
However, does that make the property of '9' that saulcomposer highlights into 'random gibberish with no real meaning'? No, I don't think so. Of course our culture is heavily invested in our decimal system (coming as it does from a combination of having ten fingers and toes, a natural feature of our human bodies, and the ingenious human discovery of an economical and powerful place-value arithmetic that uses zero as a counting number). In other words, the mathematical properties of decimal nine are part of a triumph of human invention. Tolkien certainly counted Nine as a meaningful number, as much because it is the largest single-digit decimal numeral, an exponent (three times three, knowing that three is an even more power number in philosophical terms), and the first non-prime odd number, as because of the digital recursion that saulcomposer highlights. Others have pointed out Tolkien's uses of One, Two, Three, Four, Five, etc. in his story to highlight or symbolize powerful combinations or themes.
I think what's going on with his choice of nine nazgul is both more significant than 'random gibberish' and less significant than is proposed here. After all, the Nine Walkers vs. the Nine Riders, the opposition created by Elrond (i.e. Tolkien) at the beginning of the true quest in Book II, is not sustained throughout the book all the way to Mount Doom. It does not really represent the most fundamental division in The Lord of the Rings between good and evil that is proposed here.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
 = Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
|
|
|
SaulComposer
Rohan
Jun 18 2014, 1:30pm
Post #7 of 34
(695 views)
Shortcut
|
Is another way of saying that they departed from the normative way of existence. away from the living, and they experienced death, after death only the spirit exists...
Music!
(This post was edited by SaulComposer on Jun 18 2014, 1:32pm)
|
|
|
SaulComposer
Rohan
Jun 18 2014, 1:31pm
Post #8 of 34
(683 views)
Shortcut
|
Contradict what I said about number nine?
I'm sorry but I really don't know, care to explain?
Thank You
Music!
|
|
|
SaulComposer
Rohan
Jun 18 2014, 1:53pm
Post #9 of 34
(690 views)
Shortcut
|
|
To add that I wrote about this
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Is another way of saying that they departed from the normative way of existence. away from the living, and they experienced death, after death only the spirit exists...
Though it seems that the death here is rather different then what we are accustomed to, where there is clear separation between the body and the spirit. In the Nazgul's case, no such visible separation accrued, and the body just faded away from them, while they descended into the world of demons and spirits, without their bodies. This of course is a rather different way of death, but death it is, once there is a separation between the body and the spirit , this is called death, and it matters not if it happens instantly or if was prolonged to the point where the body and the spirit separated.
Music!
|
|
|
IdrilofGondolin
Rohan
Jun 18 2014, 4:35pm
Post #10 of 34
(683 views)
Shortcut
|
|
If it's any help in this discussion
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
In Biblical numerology nine is the number of judgement.
|
|
|
SaulComposer
Rohan
Jun 18 2014, 7:45pm
Post #11 of 34
(653 views)
Shortcut
|
In Biblical numerology nine is the number of judgement.
Since you mentioned something biblical, here something interesting as well:
The Hebrew numerical number according to the letters of the word Truth which is composed of the three letters of Aleph, Mem, and Tav, come out to number 9. Aleph is 1, Mem, is 4, and Tav is 4 as well, therefore 9 is Truth.
Now about the two types of Truth, the real Truth and the corrupted 'Truth':
So the point is that the dark forces mimic the good forces by getting sustenance from it, and they create for themselves a fake formation of holiness and truth, and there is a great power and energy to attract for themselves followers, even among the wisest of all, for example Saruman, was engulfed by the dark power, because in his mind he bought into the idea that those dark forces are on the rite side of history and affairs. These forces of darkness portray themselves as doing some kind of a grand service to the world, as the Orcs have uttered 'The world of Men shall fall', as if the world of humanity is evil, and the world of Orcs is good, that is the ramp they base all their wickedness. Even though its rotten from inside, the dark forces are able to 'enchant' followers preciously because they rest on what we humans consider as noble, things like 'salvation', transformation, and awakening. They grab these virtues and they twist it and darken it, and some are not able to see and penetrate beyond the pomp and circumstance and to see the great decay that rests within them. So there is a force for Truth, which stands for goodness and Light, and in parallel, there is the force of so called 'Truth' which is nothing more then the twisting of reality but resting heavily on the concepts of truth and virtue. Cause no real darkness can survive or accepted if it was so obvious and so clear that it was completely evil with terrible intentions and motivations. It has to be able to rest on some things that we admire, and its power stems from the fact that it corrupts it, and fakes it, and that creates a confusion, and many people are swept by it without noticing its true intentions.
Saruman, the Nazgul, the Wildman, the Easterlings, Grima, and many others have been swept by it, because they couldn't see the difference between the Real Truth, and 'truth' in its corrupted and twisted form.
Boromir, was for a moment swept by it too, but he came to his senses later on, though it was too late.
Regards,
Saul
Music!
|
|
|
squire
Half-elven
Jun 18 2014, 8:49pm
Post #12 of 34
(645 views)
Shortcut
|
|
The sin of Power, rather than the sin of "corrupted Truth", is Tolkien's central theme
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I agree that Tolkien confronts the problem of how apparently good people can be turned to evil, in his story. But I don't think he creates a binary pair of (if I understand your terms) "Truth" and "[fake] Truth", with the latter quality appearing deceptively virtuous to the unwary. It's just not very clear what such a thing as "so-called Truth" could be.
Rather, Tolkien makes clear throughout that the forces of Evil hold out as attractions to the unwary such tempting ideas as: control, order, power, ownership, etc. These all involve the idea of direction from without, rather than growth from within, as being the best means to ensure the health, prosperity, and survival of a whole society or world. As we know from our own experiences, a good person may well be deceived into believing that such means is the quicker or more efficient way to achieve or ensure such health and survival.
But as Tolkien makes clear, the prime sin in Middle-earth is, in fact, controlling another's will through Power (i.e., compulsion). The Ring itself is the primary symbol of this ultimate theme in The Lord of the Rings, but we see it elsewhere, in many places. The Elves refuse to advise the Fellowship what to do; Gandalf repeatedly forswears any power of compulsion whereas Saruman embraces it; every 'good' personality whom Frodo meets is ultra-careful to respect his Free Will as the Ringbearer; even Gollum is given choices where he deserves none.
Of course Tolkien is hardly original in this idea - who hasn't heard the truism that "the End does not justify the Means"? or that "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute Power corrupts absolutely"? What makes Tolkien's treatment so original is that it is executed entirely outside our world, in an invented world that draws on Fairy-tale and fantasy conventions, yet speaks directly to some of the most profound debates about the direction of human society in the 20th century.
PS. "the world of Men shall fall" is spoken by dying Boromir in the New Line films of LotR. Similar phrases occur elsewhere in the screenplay, spoken by Aragorn and Gothmog. It is not something Tolkien ever wrote, however, nor is it particularly true to his book even in its basic thrust. It is an invention of the screenwriters to make the moral battle more comprehensible to an audience raised on horror stories. In fact in the book we never hear the forces of evil present their point of view about whether Men can live in an orc-dominated world. If there is any "world that shall fall" in LotR, it is the world of the Elves, and the book makes clear that whether Sauron or Aragorn wins the War of the Ring, the Elves (and much else that is beautiful and original to the Creation) will fall (Tolkien prefers "fail") in any case.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
|
|
|
IdrilofGondolin
Rohan
Jun 18 2014, 8:52pm
Post #13 of 34
(640 views)
Shortcut
|
These web site is so much fun. People have such interesting things to say.
|
|
|
SaulComposer
Rohan
Jun 18 2014, 9:22pm
Post #14 of 34
(643 views)
Shortcut
|
Thank you for your perspective.
But I doubt that the regular joe in the street, 'The Unwary' would consider 'control, order, power, and ownership' as attractive and secure prospects for himself, I truly believe that the opposite it true, that most people will find it suspicious and dangerous, cause all know that power corrupts, and in the end, who can guarantee that that power wouldn't turn against him?
If it was as you suggested, then the only people who will be attracted to these themes, are people who themselves are corrupt and seek power and domination, and the test wouldn't have been obvious, we clearly see, that it is not only the men of great corruption and darkness that were swept by the One Ring, there were many , innocent, and very gentle souls who couldn't escape its treachery. Gandalf, refused to bare the Ring, so did Aragorn, and Legolas and many good folk, because they were scared that they can themselves be corrupted by it. So there had to be more inclusive and general themes that can engulf all creatures, both good, and naturally evil. The themes that Tolkien offers, are 'Renewal, transformation, salvation, awakening, and freedom from the yolk of every day to day life'. These were the themes that were portrayed outride by Sauron, and the themes that you mentioned, control, order, power, ownership where the real driving forces, the darkness that was behind it all. Sauron wanted to portray his kingdom as a kingdom that will usher a change, everyone wants change, we all want to be transformed and awakened to something greater, a form of human salvation, a new age where the mundane acts of everyday existence disappears to something greater. He promised something different, and people are drawn to it. The human mind always believes that something else, different is always greater then their current state, and this is absolutely true. We all dream for a better tomorrow, we all want to achieve certain things, things that seem unachievable during our current state of existence. Sauron, understanding the human condition and its desire for change, had begun proclaiming that he has the key to this change, arguing that this change will never come unless a new order is established. Though when we look at it, this sounds very appealing, there is something new, a great change is about to take place, this is the rose that he is offering to humanity, but this rose is poisonous. While it seems that he had the very best for humanity in his mind, the truth is that all he wanted was to aggrandize himself, and rule with an iron fist.
Had his arguments for change been control, order, power, and ownership, his malice would have attracted only those who were like him, but as we all know, he appealed to a greater audience, where most peoples and creatures were in danger to be swallowed up by him. And only those who were innocent of heart, those who were far away from the affairs of the 'Big Folk', had a greater ability to shield themselves, but even they were not completely saved from its dangers.
The quote "The world of Men shall fall' is from the last film 'The Return of the King', though Tolkien never said this in his book, it runs in complete harmony with the intentions of the Orcs, and all the other dark forces, they wanted to end the world of men, and take over.
Regards,
Saul
Music!
(This post was edited by SaulComposer on Jun 18 2014, 9:30pm)
|
|
|
Morthoron
Gondor
Jun 19 2014, 2:30am
Post #15 of 34
(616 views)
Shortcut
|
Tolkien was very specific, and no amount of twisting and turning on your part will change the fact you are wrong. Per the author. In no uncertain terms. In several instances.
They lived on and on although "living became unbearable" for them, spending more and more time rendered invisible by their Rings. These were not reanimated corpses like the barrow wights, but living men forced into a shadowy immorality. This would have been both Frodo's and Gollum's eventual fate.
The WitchKing died in truth when the Blade of Westernesse rended his unseen sinews and Eowyn finished him off.
So, no, this was not a death "we are not accustomed to"; on the contrary, this was an unaccustomed, unimaginable stretching of life beyond all constraint, and one of Sauron's great sins.
Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.
|
|
|
SaulComposer
Rohan
Jun 19 2014, 11:53am
Post #16 of 34
(600 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Tolkien can say whatever he wants
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
But people who are bereft of the freedom of choice and have no physical bodies have died.
And no amount of twisting or fantasizing can change this fact. This is the reality. However in a fantasy story telling they can be what ever the author wants them to be, they can have a head but the for the author they are without a head. They can have legs but the author can decide that they don't have legs. That's his book and he can do as he pleases, but as far as reality and our world is concerned, the requirements of life are, body and spirit, and freedom of choice.
What kind of life is been a slave to someone else's desires, and possessing no body or freedom of choice? or do we understand life differently? for a 'life' like that is surely worse then death.
The Nazgul even if Tolkien decided that they were still technically alive, that life was more resembling the state of death then the state of life, and I'm sure that he would have agreed to that.
Music!
(This post was edited by SaulComposer on Jun 19 2014, 12:03pm)
|
|
|
Morthoron
Gondor
Jun 19 2014, 1:02pm
Post #17 of 34
(593 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Yes, Tolkien can say whatever he wants....
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
It is, after all, his book and his fantasy. And there were several characters who were alive but invisible at one time or another: Isildur, Gollum, Bilbo, Frodo, Bombadil, Samwise, etc. Of those, do you really think Gollum had the "freedom of choice" you claim is essential for life?
But, in any case, they were all invisible and all living. It might not be your reality, but your reality is meaningless in Tolkien's fantasy. There are resurrections, there are reincarnations, there are barrow wights and Bombadils.
Would you like to admit you are wrong now, or would you to continue to argue even though all the facts are against you once again?
Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.
|
|
|
SaulComposer
Rohan
Jun 19 2014, 1:19pm
Post #18 of 34
(580 views)
Shortcut
|
The freedom of choice, he could have changed if he wanted to. But it was exceedingly difficult for him to do so, given the fact that he had spend too much time with the ring. Even today you have people who are alive but experienced a transition to a different dimension, and they experienced death, or clinical death for a while and then came back to life. But the complete severing of the body from the soul is called death, however you want to call it. In the Nazgul's case, they're death is not the type of death that we are accustomed to. We consider death, as a categorical instant separation between the body and the soul while the body is here to stay and is buried, the soul departs. In Tolkien's case, the Nazgul's death was of a different kind. Their bodies separate from them in a slow and prolonged manner, now from our perspective , sure this is not known or considered as the type of death that we humans are accustomed to, but nevertheless, death it is. For when their bodies are no longer with them, they are shadows, spirits living in a different dimension. If this was not so, then why no one was able to see them? I would like to hear an explanation how is it possible for the wraiths to still be alive without anyone able to see them, and without their physical bodies?
Thanks
Music!
|
|
|
dreamflower
Lorien
Jun 19 2014, 1:34pm
Post #19 of 34
(579 views)
Shortcut
|
|
You are both right...and wrong
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
But I doubt that the regular joe in the street, 'The Unwary' would consider 'control, order, power, and ownership' as attractive and secure prospects for himself, I truly believe that the opposite it true, that most people will find it suspicious and dangerous, cause all know that power corrupts, and in the end, who can guarantee that that power wouldn't turn against him?
In this part you are right. "The regular joe in the street" is represented by the hobbits. The whole Shire society is built on the idea that "control, order, power, and ownership" were indeed suspicious. There was no true central government--the Thain only acted in case of emergency, and the Mayor only dealt with such services as maintaining the post, and the roads and bridges. Lotho's desire for power was considered an aberration, unnatural and un-hobbitlike. That is why the Ring could gain no real dominion over the hobbits who bore it! After sixty years, Bilbo was only just beginning to feel its effects, and Frodo was able to resist its constant blandishments all the way to the Cracks of Doom, which being its source of power enabled it to finally overwhelm his mind. As for Sam, the Ring totally missed its mark and never offered him anything he really desired, and he knew what it did offer was a lie. Of hobbits, only Gollum fell to the Ring's siren call, and he, like Lotho, was an aberration among hobbit-kind.
But it missed the mark with others as well.
Had his [Sauron's] arguments for change been control, order, power, and ownership, his malice would have attracted only those who were like him, but as we all know, he appealed to a greater audience, where most peoples and creatures were in danger to be swallowed up by him.
This is the part where you are wrong. His malice did attract (at least in the longer term) only those who were like him. Several were tempted briefly, like Gandalf and Galadriel, but they rejected it because they feared being corrupted, yet even such fear showed that they were not truly attracted to Sauron's arguments. Even those who did take the Ring's bait regretted it. Boromir was immediately sorry, and there is some evidence that even Isildur was considering giving the Ring up when he was killed. All others who desired to have the Ring for themselves were already corrupted in some form or another.
But your argument that "he appealed to a greater audience" clashes with your statement that "most people and creatures were in danger to be swallowed up by him". That's not "appeal"; most people and creatures did not desire to be swallowed up by him or finding that appealing.
I do not doubt that "Truth vs. Lies" was one of the themes with which JRRT dealt, but it was not the main theme or the over-arching theme. Nor was it even "Power corrupts". I would say his main theme was "The Desire for control over people and things is corruptive. Even the Elves' desire to do good by controlling change is seen as a bad thing, and led to the fading of the Elves in Middle-earth. Gandalf knew that his wish to do good things with the Ring would lead to disaster; he recognized that only surrender of control and power in favor of trusting that control to the One to whom it belonged, and trusting to mercy and grace would truly win the day.
(This post was edited by dreamflower on Jun 19 2014, 1:38pm)
|
|
|
SaulComposer
Rohan
Jun 19 2014, 2:56pm
Post #20 of 34
(568 views)
Shortcut
|
In Tolkien's world we are introduced to Sauron's dominions as ugly, defective and corrupted Orcs, and the Wildman, who are also from the lower barbaric plate of humanity, they are also portrayed as ugly and degenerate. We are not introduced to them as beautiful creatures who were somehow thrown into the nadir of existence, there are a number of reasons for that. Primarily because this is a fantasy tale, and there is a need to set the record straight from the very beginning, categorical separations, no 'in betweens' , but a setting with clear rite and wrong, with very little grey areas. Tolkien wanted to emphasize their evil to reader by resorting to physical descriptions where the job of setting the record straight of who's what instantaneously. But in the real world, there can exist people of extreme beauty but also of extreme malice and wickedness. So it is entirely possible, that the cream of all of humanity, those who are talented, most beautiful and well mannered and even noble and aristocratic to be swept by the powers of evil, even though no one would have expected them to be turn out like this. I believe the clear analogy of Tolkien was utilizing with his imaginative correlation to the events of world war two, how the many beautiful and well mannered, and talented have committed themselves to the unthinkable, and how they fell to the hands of a tyrant promising them all the world on a silver platter, while in essence he caused their destruction.
So the idea that Sauron's corruptive powers could have only swept the obvious audience, is erroneous, for even the people who one would imagine to be the least capable of such atrocities and evil, can be swept up by the power of evil.
Regards,
Saul
Music!
(This post was edited by SaulComposer on Jun 19 2014, 2:59pm)
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 19 2014, 3:18pm
Post #21 of 34
(576 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I seldom rise to Saul's defense, but...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
It is, after all, his book and his fantasy. And there were several characters who were alive but invisible at one time or another: Isildur, Gollum, Bilbo, Frodo, Bombadil, Samwise, etc. Of those, do you really think Gollum had the "freedom of choice" you claim is essential for life?
But, in any case, they were all invisible and all living. It might not be your reality, but your reality is meaningless in Tolkien's fantasy. There are resurrections, there are reincarnations, there are barrow wights and Bombadils.
Would you like to admit you are wrong now, or would you to continue to argue even though all the facts are against you once again?
Invisibility does not equate to not having a physical body. I'm afraid that you are in the wrong due to misrepresenting Saul's statement.
However, Saul does underestimate Sauron, who used more than method to get his way. His servants and minions either share similar views to his own or are bred to evil and dispair. Sauron's enemies are attacked according to whatever he perceives to be their weaknesses. King Theoden is espelled and driven to apathy and dispair, until Sauron's hold is broken by Gandalf the Grey. He takes a different approach, however, with Denethor, the Steward of Gondor. He begins by playing on Denethor's pride and his fear of being displaced by an upstart king who might well be the ruin of Gondor. Only later does Sauron attack Denethor with dispair at the end of his Line and in time his nation.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
|
|
|
Morthoron
Gondor
Jun 19 2014, 5:45pm
Post #22 of 34
(550 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Never rise to defend what is wrong, m'dear....
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Invisibility does not equate to not having a physical body. I'm afraid that you are in the wrong due to misrepresenting Saul's statement.
On the contrary, there is no misrepresentation here. Saul insists the Nazgul are dead, Tolkien states they are living. Invisibility does not equal death in Middle-earth, and the Nazgul are invisible, not spirits or ghosts. Their robes reveal their forms, there are crowns atop their invisible heads, and when Merry stabs the WitchKing, Tolkien specifically mentions that he was stabbed in the back of the knee and the knife rent the hidden sinew of the Wiki's leg.
Spirits do not have knees. Ghosts by their very ethereal nature do not have sinew. Ergo, Saul is wrong, and further debate would be farcical.
Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.
|
|
|
SaulComposer
Rohan
Jun 19 2014, 6:22pm
Post #23 of 34
(546 views)
Shortcut
|
In fact even the human soul is shaped exactly like the body, and the body is only the physical manifestation of the soul, like a clothing. The angels are also exactly like us, the same shape, the only thing they don't have is a body.
But they are not considered dead cause they were created this way, from the beginning without a body. But death, the most accurate definition of death, is the separation between the body and the soul. The wraiths had no more bodies, that means that they died, as simple as that.
Now you want to decide that they are not dead even though they died? that's perfectly fine, that's why its called fantasy, you can make eagles as f-16's fly from one place to the next, and you can make Orcs ride Wolves, but it doesn't mean that this is so, and that these things really exist. When I said that the wraiths have died, I was referring to the reality from our human perspective, I was trying to bring out a point, about how their death in essence is translated to human affairs and situation, and not as how Tolkien would have considered them one way or another.
If Tolkien just like you want to create a new fantasy reality, did anyone suggest that this is a crime? No.
But from our perspective and how this tale relates to us humans, these creatures would have been considered dead since they no longer possessed free will or physical bodies.
Have a Great Day,
Music!
(This post was edited by SaulComposer on Jun 19 2014, 6:23pm)
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 19 2014, 8:18pm
Post #24 of 34
(523 views)
Shortcut
|
The problem here is that Saul never brought up invisibility or equated it with undeath (or if he did then I missed it completely). I also have to agree with him to some extent that the Nazgul are indeed undead--although there is no single instant that we can point to to say when they died. They faded from the living world and became primarily immaterial. There was apparently a gradual transformation from living to unliving being, with no corpse left behind. Or, if it was more sudden, there is no evidence of the case in the legendarium.
The case might have been different with the First-Age Adan Gorlim, who betrayed Beren for the sake of his wife only to join her in death. He might have left behind a physical form when he became a Wraith.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
|
|
|
dreamflower
Lorien
Jun 19 2014, 8:24pm
Post #25 of 34
(529 views)
Shortcut
|
|
The Wildmen were not "degenerate"
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Ghan-buri-ghan and the Wildmen were physically unattractive. But they were among the Good Guys, willingly lending aid to the Rohirrim to defeat the Enemy of all, even though the Rohirrim had hunted them in the past. They were/are an archetype of the "noble savage" trope. Orcs are as you say: a physical representation of Evil, one which appears as physically "ugly as sin", as the old saying goes.
Sauron himself had degenerated, and could no longer take on a fair appearance; but as Annatar, the so-called "Lord of Gifts" he appeared beautiful and thus was able to fool the Elves. But his appearance deteriorated to the point that he could no longer achieve a fair form.
An opposite example was Aragorn: he did not appear kingly or attractive when he first showed up. The hobbits thought his appearance was "foul"; yet by the end of the story he had an appearance of nobility that seemed to shine forth from him..
Yes, JRRT's world was a fantasy world, one of richness and depth. And while there was indeed a clear and present dichotomy between Good and Evil it was not always as simple as "beautiful=good"/"ugly=bad". True, that was a part of it, but it was not the whole of it.
|
|
|
|
|
1
