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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Could Peter Jackson have kept everyone happy?
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Arannir
Valinor


Jun 30 2014, 11:34am

Post #176 of 195 (497 views)
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Agreed, most of all this is interpretation and perception. [In reply to] Can't Post

But I still think that both the acting and the directing (simply the synergism of the both) alludes to a history in that scene. What kind is not clear, certainly not to the viewer who has not read the books. It does not have to be, to be honest. But simply the room left for the "feeling of more" gives these movies a special feeling, imho.

(Btw: Of course the "nursing & dressing" would have come after TH - but it could still indicate a relationship that was not just built between TH and LotR).

"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



Elthir
Grey Havens

Jun 30 2014, 11:57am

Post #177 of 195 (483 views)
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by the wayside [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
(Btw: Of course the "nursing & dressing" would have come after TH - but it could still indicate a relationship that was not just built between TH and LotR).



Well I stipulated that much [as a possibility] already in my last post.

But here's another btw, btw Wink

I only asked because ever since Jackson's films came out I have read the theories/interpretations that Galadriel and Gandalf were [for example] 'incredibly close' in Aman, and even that they 'maybe' had a physical relationship in Aman, before Galadriel was wed!

You didn't go there in any case, I realize; but my asking and your responding becomes a nice vehicle for pointing out just what the text says, or does not say, about this relationship.


(This post was edited by Elthir on Jun 30 2014, 12:01pm)


Arannir
Valinor


Jun 30 2014, 1:02pm

Post #178 of 195 (468 views)
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Yes, I know. [In reply to] Can't Post

I know you already alluded to that as well, just wanted to make it clear.

Yes, these theories came out mainly after the first trailer (or was it the second?!) was released, I think. I don't think that it was ever the motivation of the film-makers... even in the trailer one had to purposefully interpret the scene in that direction, imho. But unfortunately it kind of stuck around.

"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



J Pierpont Flathead
Rivendell

Jun 30 2014, 1:48pm

Post #179 of 195 (477 views)
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Did They Know? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
...Also that later she is the one nursing and dressing him in White...


Where in the texts is this? Just curious to give it a read.

In these discussions of the history between Gandalf and Galadriel, it is fundamentally important to ask how much the writers actually knew and alluded to regarding actual textual history and then the "debatable" things. If they had not such intent, and are simply writing in the moment, it is more likely viewer injection that gives the writers too much credit even if their thoughts coincidentally touch on thoughts that have existed before; coincidence.

Now his life is full of wonder
But his heart still knows some fear
Of a simple thing he cannot comprehend
Why they try to tear the mountains down
To bring in a couple more
More people, more scars upon the land


Arannir
Valinor


Jun 30 2014, 2:21pm

Post #180 of 195 (486 views)
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They knew. [In reply to] Can't Post

They talk about it in the TTT commentary around the time we see the Zirak-zigil flashback.


However, this was originally only meant as an example for a more general belief of mine that the film-makers did leave moments in there in which the history and depth (and characters) of Tolkien's world can breath.

I see no use in questioning myself too deeply whether I might like some scenes for a certain reason which potentially was not intended by the film-makers originally (although it might be interesting for some of those scenes). Because that game of viewer injection vs. writing skill can really ruin a lot... not just for LotR and TH, but for all movies, if one starts doing that excessively.

Especially since one will usually not have much chances of proving that you got the filmmaker's intention right - unless there is some sort of commentary or quote that confirms it. The most important moment of judging and "feeling" a scene should remain the moment you first see it and what it leads to within yourself, imho, without questioning the "objective rightfulness" of that feeling or thought.

"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



(This post was edited by Arannir on Jun 30 2014, 2:25pm)


Elthir
Grey Havens

Jun 30 2014, 4:48pm

Post #181 of 195 (457 views)
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Gandalf's healing [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Arannir wrote: ...Also that later she is the one nursing and dressing him in White...

Where in the texts is this? Just curious to give it a read.



In The White Rider Gandalf says: 'I tarried there in the ageless time of that land where days bring healing not decay. Healing I found, and I was clothed in White. Counsel I gave and counsel took. (...).'

And in letter 156 Tolkien wrote: 'Naked is alas! unclear. It was meant literally, 'unclothed like a child' (not discarnate), and so ready to receive the white robes of the highest. Galadriel's power is not divine, and his healing in Lorien is meant to be no more that physical healing and refreshment.'

Galadriel sent the eagle for Gandalf, but to my mind especially the actual text from the book doesn't necessarily mean Galadriel herself was involved with nursing and dressing. Is there more? That's all I can think of now, but maybe Arannir has more?


(This post was edited by Elthir on Jun 30 2014, 4:51pm)


Laineth
Lorien

Jun 30 2014, 6:13pm

Post #182 of 195 (448 views)
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Have to Disagree [In reply to] Can't Post

I personally don’t have an opinion on Tauriel yet, as I’m waiting to see how the plot lines are handled in BotFA.

However, you cannot have an entire film without a female character. The very comment of it being ‘misguided’ or ‘not historically accurate’ is incredibly sexist. There are no more women in the world today than there were in the past.

Women can like films with mainly guys, that isn’t the problem. The problem is when every film is mainly guys.

To quote an article I like,


Quote
It’s so ingrained into our society that female characters are extra or niche, and that asking for them is asking too much, that the very act of questioning the lack of them feels overdemanding. A lack of imagination. A refusal to read books without characters who aren’t “like me.” Somehow, it feels wrong of me to abandon a book merely because it lacks female characters. After all, I read books by female authors and about female characters all the time. Why shouldn’t I pick up a book about male characters for a change?

Except, of course, even books that are all about female characters feature male characters too. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a book whose characters are 100% women, or even 100% women and their love interests. It simply doesn’t happen, because of course men exist. Of course they have impact on events and play significant roles in other people’s lives. Of course you couldn’t write a book, even a book set in an entirely different world, without them. But when it’s the reverse? Well, then you can’t expect women to be shoehorned in everywhere. Why would they even be around? It’s a fantasy world. It’s about criminals. You’re being unreasonable expecting women to be there. You’re asking too much.

It’s nonsense, but it’s incredibly pervasive, to the point that a part of me insists that if I put down a book because of a lack of female characters, even if I know I therefore won’t enjoy it, that’ll mean I’m not a “serious reader” or a “serious writer” or simply don’t understand books. And that’s not a nice feeling to have.


And another one:


Quote
As they went through their choices, the boy picked up a book whose cover showed an illustration of a woman in a hoop skirt. He quickly tossed it aside. My daughter suggested that it might be good, and asked if he'd already read it, because she would like to. He said no, it was a girl book and he wouldn't read it. Her response was pretty cut and dry: "That's a sexist thing to say," she explained. He was a friend of hers and an intelligent kid. He paused long enough for her to realize he wasn't sure what she meant.

"Do you know how many books with boys in them I read?" she said. "You should read girl books, too. Not reading them just because they're about girls is sexist."


Those two articles are about books, but the message is the same with films. If the complaint is because that’s not how Elvish society is, Laws and Customs says otherwise. They are Tolkien’s most gender equal society:


Quote
In all such things, not concerned with the bringing forth of children, the neri and nissi (that is, the men and women) of the Eldar are equal--unless it be in this (as they themselves say) that for the nissi the making of things new is for the most part shown in the forming of their children so that invention and change is otherwise brought about by the neri. There are, however, no matters which among the Eldar only a ner can think or do, or others with which only a nis is concerned.


I will be the first one to defend the women Tolkien did write, and argue that his books are not sexist. But the fact that only 19% of his characters are female is completely unrealistic.

Sexism is so incredibly pervasive, it’s still in every aspect of our culture. Even our very language is sexist.

So please, don’t use that argument. You have the complete right to feel how you feel, but perpetuating sexism helps no one.


Name
Rohan


Jun 30 2014, 6:30pm

Post #183 of 195 (459 views)
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I think [In reply to] Can't Post

We are far enough along in societal evolution that gender shouldn't matter when it comes to works of art, that being books and movies in this case. It's nice to have gender "equality" but it shouldn't be a deciding factor when considering books or movies.

Sure LotR is centered around men. But it's a type of story that you just can't add females into to make it more "even." There's nothing sexist about it, it's just the nature of this particular story.

How many Tolkien fans does it take to change a light bulb?

"Change? Oh my god, what do you mean change?! Never, never, never......"


Laineth
Lorien

Jul 1 2014, 12:32am

Post #184 of 195 (436 views)
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Actually [In reply to] Can't Post

Everyone has the right to their own feelings. I'm not going to pass judgement and say someone shouldn't feel uncomfortable by something; that disregards them as a person and invalidates their feelings.

For better or for worse, art is a huge part of our culture. Because of that, our society and culture gets reflected in our art. They feed each other. And even though we've made a lot of progress, we're nowhere near the finish line when it comes to gender equality.

I didn't say anything about LotR. Like I said, I will be the first one to defend the females Tolkien wrote. I'm not saying the Fellowship should have had a female in it.

I am saying it is completely unacceptable to have an entire film without one named female character (and a glimpse of telepathic communication to Galadriel doesn't count).

I have not formed an opinion about Tauriel as a character yet. Too much is unknown. However, disliking Tauriel because she's female is sexist. Especially when said female comes from a gender-equal society.


Name
Rohan


Jul 1 2014, 3:02am

Post #185 of 195 (422 views)
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Ok, perfectly fine reasoning. [In reply to] Can't Post

I totally see what you're saying. And let me just add that I don't think people dislike Tauriel because she's female, but more because she's a "made up" female that has a major role. And I have to say, part of me resents the fact that Tauriel gets more screen time than Galadriel. Tauriel kinda fits into that "cliché female role" by being a headstrong character who's also a good fighter. And I find that vastly less appealing when compared to a much more complex, and in my mind more interesting character like Galadriel. Anyways, that's just my take on her character. Wink

How many Tolkien fans does it take to change a light bulb?

"Change? Oh my god, what do you mean change?! Never, never, never......"


pettytyrant101
Lorien


Jul 1 2014, 2:51pm

Post #186 of 195 (418 views)
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I don't understand [In reply to] Can't Post

this notion you cant have a film of all males- what about Master and Commander?- all men on a boat together.
Or that popular tv series of the moment set in the women's prison, mainly a female cast. Should it have a male prison attached to redress the gender imbalance?

Are you saying you couldn't make a film of a Biggles book without including a female pilot in the Battle of Britain?

And what about shows like Sex in the City- where there are named male characters, if you dont mind males only being given objectifying nicknames. Should such a show not be allowed to exist unless they have proper male representation in them?

A tale, with a message to deliver, well told, will cross any gender divide.
TH book has been enjoyed by children of both sexes since its publication.
Bilbo's story, from his comfortable home life, to discomfort, home sickness, fear, wonder, courage and greater understanding are not gender specific traits or experiences, they are universal to humanity. What sex the conveyer of the message is is of less import than the message conveyed.

On the matter of Galadriel being presented in the films as more important than Saruman she definitely is presented that way, I dont see how it can be in doubt.

At the WC we are introduced to her first and for longer than Saruman, during the meeting Saruman has nothing to say of import, just sort of waffles rubbish, and is soon drowned out by Galadriel's telepathy anyway, giving her literal important right over the top of him.
How the scene is filmed too, with Galadriel always standing and visually dominating over the others- they all add up to her being presented as more important than Saruman.

"A lot of our heroes depress me. But when they made this particular hero they didn't give him a gun, they gave him a screwdriver so he could fix things. They didn't give him a tank, or a warship, or an x-wing fighter, they gave him a call box from which you can call for help. And they didn't give him a superpower, or pointy ears or a heat ray, they gave him an extra heart. And that's an extraordinary thing.
There will never come a time when we don't need a hero like the Doctor."- Steven Moffat

(This post was edited by pettytyrant101 on Jul 1 2014, 2:52pm)


J Pierpont Flathead
Rivendell

Jul 1 2014, 3:13pm

Post #187 of 195 (404 views)
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Boyens [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
On the matter of Galadriel being presented in the films as more important than Saruman she definitely is presented that way, I dont see how it can be in doubt.

At the WC we are introduced to her first and for longer than Saruman, during the meeting Saruman has nothing to say of import, just sort of waffles rubbish, and is soon drowned out by Galadriel's telepathy anyway, giving her literal important right over the top of him.
How the scene is filmed too, with Galadriel always standing and visually dominating over the others- they all add up to her being presented as more important than Saruman.


I believe this all boils down to Boyen's false claim that "Galadriel, as you all know, is the most powerful being in Middle Earth, at the time." By the way, Boyens uses "as you know" in an attempt to convince us we already knew something when we didn't and when it isn't correct in the first place - a conjuring of "fact."

Sexism isn't the sole domain of men, and even claims of sexism are sometimes used as sexist leverage in efforts achieve righteous dominion. As Gandalf might say, "He would even use his grief as a cloak."

Now his life is full of wonder
But his heart still knows some fear
Of a simple thing he cannot comprehend
Why they try to tear the mountains down
To bring in a couple more
More people, more scars upon the land

(This post was edited by J Pierpont Flathead on Jul 1 2014, 3:19pm)


Laineth
Lorien

Jul 1 2014, 6:20pm

Post #188 of 195 (393 views)
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Yeah.. [In reply to] Can't Post

and I'm worried all we're going to get is more fighter!Tauriel, instead of a good look at her motivations. And I definitely would have loved to see more Galadriel. If they had put more Galadriel and less Tauriel I wouldn't have a problem with it.


Laineth
Lorien

Jul 1 2014, 6:35pm

Post #189 of 195 (382 views)
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No [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not saying that at all. There are some female characters in the Biggles universe. Not many, but a few.

The point is there is a huge difference betwen having a few female (or male) characters, or having none of the opposite gender. And it's not a question of each specific film in isolation, but the overriding pattern of our society.

Those are messages universal to humanity. I have no problem with Bilbo being one of the main characters. However, that has nothing to do with my point.

(Although, going down this thought process, how many boys have you met that will read a 'girl's' book? From my experience, not many; and they will get teased unmercifully when they do.)


(This post was edited by Laineth on Jul 1 2014, 6:45pm)


Laineth
Lorien

Jul 1 2014, 6:39pm

Post #190 of 195 (376 views)
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Yes [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Sexism isn't the sole domain of men, and even claims of sexism are sometimes used as sexist leverage in efforts achieve righteous dominion. As Gandalf might say, "He would even use his grief as a cloak."


Very true. I have met as many sexist women as I have men. It's in no way gender isolated. And, it's so ingrained into our society and social conditioning, most of the time we're not even aware of it.


J Pierpont Flathead
Rivendell

Jul 1 2014, 6:41pm

Post #191 of 195 (379 views)
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WC [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
...And I definitely would have loved to see more Galadriel. If they had put more Galadriel and less Tauriel I wouldn't have a problem with it.


Christopher Lee said in a video that he will have more to do - the most to do - in the third movie. I think that just means the White Council in general will have more to do, including Galadriel. So it's a safe bet she'll be well-used, perhaps even to your satisfaction. But it's also a safe bet that Tauriel gets more screen time. Evangeline Lilly is probably less expensive than Cate Blanchett. ;)

Now his life is full of wonder
But his heart still knows some fear
Of a simple thing he cannot comprehend
Why they try to tear the mountains down
To bring in a couple more
More people, more scars upon the land


Arannir
Valinor


Jul 1 2014, 9:30pm

Post #192 of 195 (371 views)
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Hm... [In reply to] Can't Post

... with the email-notification-system not working for some it has become hard to follow this thread.

A shame, it has quite some interesting back-and-forths.


(Just as a general notification in case someone waits for a response - it could be that people missed the new posts.)

"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



Laineth
Lorien

Jul 2 2014, 12:19am

Post #193 of 195 (364 views)
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Probably :) [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm definately curious about those plot lines. Personally, I have to see how they all end, before I can pass judgement on them. Smile


Name
Rohan


Jul 2 2014, 1:45am

Post #194 of 195 (358 views)
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Oh so it's not just me. [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank god. LaughLaugh

How many Tolkien fans does it take to change a light bulb?

"Change? Oh my god, what do you mean change?! Never, never, never......"


Laineth
Lorien

Jul 2 2014, 5:24am

Post #195 of 195 (364 views)
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Okay... [In reply to] Can't Post

… so that's what's going on! I had wondered if it was just me. Smile

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