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errant questions

Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 15 2014, 1:00pm

Post #1 of 16 (379 views)
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errant questions Can't Post

 
1. if the teleri who traveled via tol eressea are considered caliquendi... did they get off their island and travel over land to valinor to see the light of the trees? or were the trees lightsome enough that their light was visible over the mountain ranges, and across the bay?

2. how many noldor were in lothlorien? how many from tol eressea? surely galadriel and celeborn did not arrive just by themselves from beleriand.... surely they had some elves in their retinue (some noldorian, from gladriel, some from tol eressea, from celeborn -- if we allow that celeborn is from tol eressea, as he is from some of tolkien's writings).

3. any noldor still hanging around outside of lothlorien in the third age (besides galadriel, elrond, arwen, elros, elladan, and glorfindel)?

4. does faramir's nobleness come not just from his numenorian blood, but from his elvish (silvan) blood (if one accepts that the house of dol amroth has the elf, mithrellas, as a progenitor)?

5. did faramir have wings?


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jun 15 2014, 1:47pm

Post #2 of 16 (273 views)
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Elwë's Teleri [In reply to] Can't Post

From Robert Foster's The Complete Guide to Middle-earth:


Quote

Finally, their desire for the Light of Aman grew so great that Ossë taught the Teleri the art of shipbuilding. Their white ships, drawn by swans, carried them to the coast of Eldamar, where they built the beautiful city of Alqualondë.



But, yes, the light of the Trees would have been visible from Tol Eressëa.

I don't think that you can count Elros as being around in the Third Age. Did you confuse him with his nephew Elrohir?

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jun 15 2014, 1:49pm)


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 15 2014, 2:16pm

Post #3 of 16 (263 views)
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no, didn't conflate elros and elrohir... : ) [In reply to] Can't Post

 
no, didn't conflate elros and elrohir... i just got sloppy with my paragraph construction... i was tallying up noldor, and when i thought "elrond" i reflexively added "elros," because... "elrond and elros" is a common phrase (to me), like "beren and luthien."

'tho did get mixed up re alqualonde. it has been stuck in my mind that alqualonde is of tol eressea (because that's where i plunk the teleri). i always forget that they pushed to the actual shores of aman, built alqualonde. but i never forget the kinslaying at alqualonde, and that the feanorians did it because they wanted the ships to travel to middle earth. i just misplace the logic that if ships were at alqualonde/tol eressea, the feanorians wouldn't have had a way to get to them to do the kinslaying. alqualonde/eldemar would have to be the location, in order to make the ships accessible for commandeering by the feanoreans.

however, because of our little exchange and my self-analysis, i will never again forget where alqualonde is, so thank you. : )

cheers : )

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jun 15 2014, 2:26pm

Post #4 of 16 (255 views)
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That's okay. [In reply to] Can't Post

I count Celeborn as a Sindar rather than a Noldor Elf, 'though I guess that depends on what you consider to be the official canon. I imagine that there were other members of Elrond's household who would have been Noldor Elves--Erestor, for one, and possibly Lindir.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Elthir
Grey Havens

Jun 15 2014, 3:19pm

Post #5 of 16 (256 views)
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Celeborn [In reply to] Can't Post

Celeborn was only ever a Noldo [and only possibly so] very early on in the drafts for The Lord of the Rings. I think you might be thinking of the fairly late Teler of Aman idea rather...

... though as far as canon goes, I'm surprised when anyone chooses posthumously published writing over Tolkien-published text. I wonder if some do not realize that JRRT himself published Celeborn as a Sindarin Elf.

For myself Celeborn is Sindarin no question [as in the constructed Silmarillion as well].


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 15 2014, 3:28pm

Post #6 of 16 (252 views)
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i am not thinking of celeborn as a noldo [In reply to] Can't Post

 
just to point out... i am not thinking of celeborn a a noldo, but thinking of him as a possible calaquendi-telerian, who wed galadriel in aman, and traveled with her to middle-earth with the exodus.

i see where you may be confused at my intent, because i begin the paragraph with a reference to the noldor, and then mention galadriel and celeborn. but for each, in the next section of the paragraph, i refer to possible retinues... noldorian for galadriel, telerian for celeborn.

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Jun 15 2014, 3:31pm)


Elthir
Grey Havens

Jun 15 2014, 3:31pm

Post #7 of 16 (256 views)
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Wandering Inglorions and other matters [In reply to] Can't Post

As for other Noldor in the Third Age...

Lindon had a mix of Noldor and Sindar. In the first edition of The Lord of the Rings there are explicitly Noldor in Lindon according to Appendix B, before some went to Eregion. In the revised version Gil-galad dwelt in Lindon north of the Lune (south of the Lune dwelt for a time Celeborn). Later some of the Noldor went to Eregion. In a note published in Unfinished Tales it was said that south of the Lune were largely Sindarin Elves. In the Third Age a 'remnant of the people of Gil-galad' dwelt at the Havens.

Imladris (Rivendell): 'mostly' High Elves (The Road Goes Ever On). 'Elrond retreats with remnant of the Noldor and founds the refuge of Imladris' (Appendix B, The Return of the King). 'After the fall of Gil-galad, Master Elrond abode in Imladris, and he gathered there many Elves...' (...) 'In Eriador Imladris was the chief dwelling of the High Elves; but at the Grey Havens of Lindon there abode also a remnant of the people of Gil-galad the Elvenking.' (Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age).

'The People of Lórien were even then [i.e. at the time of the loss of Amroth] much as they were at the end of the Third Age: Silvan Elves in origin, but ruled by princes of Sindarin descent (as was the realm of Thranduil in the northern parts of Mirkwood, though whether Thranduil and Amroth were akin is not now known*). They had however been much mingled with Noldor (of Sindarin speech), who...' JRRT, History of Galadriel And Celeborn, Unfinished Tales

According to posthumously published texts there were Noldor from Eregion who went to Lorien after Sorehead made war in Eregion. Some of the Sindar seem to be there too, considering Amdir and Amroth.

And Faramir can surely cast a shadow that is like wings in some way Smile


Elthir
Grey Havens

Jun 15 2014, 3:37pm

Post #8 of 16 (239 views)
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ok, but my reply was to someone else about Celeborn the 'Noldo'... [In reply to] Can't Post

... where I guessed that the 'Celeborn as Teler from Aman' idea was probably intended in any case Smile


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 15 2014, 3:44pm

Post #9 of 16 (234 views)
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thank you, elthir! : ) [In reply to] Can't Post

 
it makes a lot of sense to me that there would be some noldo kicking about somewhere, but it is exceedingly nice to have legitimate references (thank you! : ) ).

so imladris is the place in the third age that has he highest concentration of noldo. that never really occurred to me before.... i just kind of loosely thought of them as "elves." because of this concentration, it would be a great font of lore and skill (and augment elrond's lore-master reputation).

but i think having all those noldo concentrated together, commiserating on the woes they've shared, some with first-hand memories of aman... that would lend it a slightly mournful atmosphere, no? a kind of haunted atmosphere? yet tolkien says the place is full of warm cheer and merriment. it's challenging to think of the noldo as merry (even though they are deserving of happiness).

being the crafters that they are, i wonder at what else the rivendell elves busied themselves with, besides lore? these were the elves that built kingdoms out of stone, created statues so lifelike that unaware observers thought they were real people (nerdanel), created the silmarils, feanorian lamps, script (feanor), jewels unnumbered.... what else did those noldorian elves get up to in rivendell? did the decline that they experienced (as dramatically reflected in their waning birthrate) also translate to fewer technical accomplishments, fewer works by their hands?

yes, i can see where faramir casts a wing-like shadow. : )


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 15 2014, 3:45pm

Post #10 of 16 (230 views)
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ah, ok : ) [In reply to] Can't Post

 
ah, i can see now where you replied to o-s... thought you were replying to me. : )

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 15 2014, 3:46pm

Post #11 of 16 (228 views)
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yes, i was thinking [In reply to] Can't Post

 
yes, i was thinking possibly lindir. i forgot about erestor.

cheers : )

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Elthir
Grey Havens

Jun 15 2014, 3:58pm

Post #12 of 16 (230 views)
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note on High Elves [In reply to] Can't Post

Just to pedantically note it: I think High Elves in RGEO surely refers to the Exiled Noldor.

The reason to say so is that I think High Elves only usually refers to the Noldor [in a Middle-earth context anyway], but sometimes includes the Sindar. Again not in RGEO, but it's one of those terms that [I think] is fluid, and can include the Sindar when the comparison is to the 'East-elves' of Mirkwood for example, or some Avarin clan.

Frodo seems to realize that he has met High-elves due to the Sindarin name Elbereth for example -- although the Noldor use this name too. Tolkien aruably did mean the Noldor at first [I won't go into why for now, it's a language thing], but in any case Frodo is 'correct', or can still be if the name is notable to the Noldor and Sindar... and Gildor reveals that his company are Exiles in any case.

Just sayin' Crazy


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 15 2014, 4:01pm

Post #13 of 16 (224 views)
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yes... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
yes... : ) that is how i took it as well.

i love gildor's little mention of "exiles." as a side note... there are surely many noldor who were either children of exiles or too young to have made a conscious decision to leave. it appears they were also under the ban, which i think is unfair.

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Elthir
Grey Havens

Jun 15 2014, 4:18pm

Post #14 of 16 (227 views)
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Celeborn of Aman? [In reply to] Can't Post

With respect to the 'Teler from the Undying Lands' idea, Tolkien had (twice) published that Celeborn was one of the Sindar. Published in The Return of the King first edition (revised wording impacted this passage however, see below). In any case Celeborn the Sinda again appears in The Road Goes Ever On, as posted previously in the passage concerning Galadriel...

'...She passed over the Mountains of Eredluin with her husband Celeborn (one of the Sindar) and went to Eregion.' JRRT RGEO


In The Return of the King an earlier form of one passage reads: 'The Exiled Noldor dwelt in Lindon, but many of the Sindar passed eastward and established realms in the forests far away. The chief of these were Thranduil in the north of Greenwood the Great, and Celeborn in the south of the forest. But the wife of Celeborn was Noldorin ...' Appendix B In the revised version 'Thranduil was one of these' (compare to 'The chief of these...') but the rest of the sentence makes no mention of Celeborn. Gil-galad is mentioned in the following sentence (living in Lindon), then 'In Lindon south of the Lune dwelt for a time Celeborn, kinsman of Thingol...'


As a kinsman of Thingol Celeborn was thought of as a grandson of one of Thingol's brothers -- in one conception Elmo, in another Olwe. Making him a grandson of Olwe draws him closer to Galadriel on the family tree -- first cousins actually (closer than if he was the grandson of Elmo).

There is also the issue of Celeborn not leaving Middle-earth with Galadriel; one wonders 'why not' if he was a Teler from Oversea to begin with. I suppose it could be explained in some way, but I note the following published by Wayne Hammond and Christina Scull in which Tolkien is seemingly considering this matter in general. The interesting part here is the comment that Celeborn had never seen the Blessed Realm...

'(...)These comments imply that Celeborn could have left Middle-earth with Galadriel if he had wished, and Tolkien's replies to queries from readers seem to confirm this. In his unpublished letter to Eileen Elgar, begun 22 September 1963 he comments that Celeborn and Galadriel were of different kin: Celeborn was of that branch of the Elves that, in the First Age, was so in love with Middle-earth that they had refused the call of the Valar to go to Valinor; he had never seen the Blessed Realm. Now he remained until he had seen the coming of the Dominion of Men. But to an immortal Elf, for whom time was not as it is to mortals, the period in which he was parted from Galadriel would seem brief.'

Hammond And Scull, The Lord of the Rings Reader's Companion


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jun 15 2014, 11:04pm

Post #15 of 16 (203 views)
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All right, I see what Maciliel was saying. [In reply to] Can't Post

I misread a portion of Mac's original post (or misremembered what I had read).

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Elthir
Grey Havens

Jun 16 2014, 12:45pm

Post #16 of 16 (226 views)
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P.S. [In reply to] Can't Post

By the way my point with the quote from Hammond and scull was to provide an example of Tolkien 'explaining' why Celeborn did not sail when Galadriel sailed -- and I think it very notable that when he did, part of that explanation includes that Celeborn had never been to Aman.

Tolkien had already published a Celeborn who does not want to be parted with Galadriel, but yet chooses to. This was explained in the Epilogue [why Celeborn remained], which was however [and obviously] dropped from The Lord of the Rings -- but there is no doubt that Celeborn was not from Aman when the first edition was published [nor the second edition].

I really have to disagree with Tolkien when he tinkers with this, not only making Celeborn a Teler from Aman, but making him Galadriel's first cousin. It's a late idea -- and I must call into question Tolkien's memory here as well -- as there is no late indication that he was even aware that he was stepping on already published description...

... and while not impossible to explain of course, why would an Elf from Aman [if so] who did not want to be parted from his wife [see Celeborn's author-published comments to Aragorn] not return Over Sea with Galadriel when she sailed -- see also Tolkien's comments on the difficult Sea-longing published in The Road Goes Ever On.

This and the 'unstained' Galadriel concept [another very late idea removing Galadriel from the Rebellion, another idea that contradicts already published texts] are two revisons that I not only think were problematic, but I'm not sure that Tolkien fully realized how problematic they were. I'm not suggesting that Tolkien wholly forgot what he had written about these two characters...

... but it would be easy enough to mix up what he had 'merely' written versus what he had already published.

 
 

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