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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Jun 15 2014, 1:46am
Post #1 of 58
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The Children of Hurin Read-Through: 'The Return of Turin to Dor-Lomin', and 'The Coming of Turin into Brethil'
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Welcome to the Fellowship of the Gloom...Err...Doom...Ah...Room! My it does seem rather dark in here of late. Perhaps we should open some of those drapes. In studying the Curse, perhaps we have been affected just as much as Turin. Ah well, welcome, just the same.
As a reminder, I would like to say two things to any newcomers: First, Where have you been! Just kidding!!  Second, Even the smallest poster can change the course of the discussion, so by all means, please make yourself heard!
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Jun 15 2014, 1:47am
Post #2 of 58
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Turin has just confronted Glaurung and the destruction of Nargothrond. This is the second time his great plans have been defeated and his companions and friends killed. Now he has the added torture of the bewitchment of the dragon's eye.
What might he be thinking? He's lost everything again. How much his despair might be dragon-spell? Is there a parallel to the power of Smaug to be drawn? How much of these actions are dragon-spell induced, and how much is natural grief and agony?
Unpleasantly reminded of his family, he sets out and comes to Ivrin again, the same place he was healed after Beleg died. He came 'with the first ice of winter', but found the pool frozen.
He came 'with' winter. Is this symbolic of his growth as a person? Is Turin entering his personal winter? Is his Spring and Summer past? Did he even mean to come to Ivrin? Was it to re-capture the renewal he had before, and make another fresh start? How does the ice impact this analogy? Is it symbolic of the barriers between him and good fortune?
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Jun 15 2014, 1:47am
Post #3 of 58
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Finally, he sets out towards Dor-Lomin. He arrives and discovers his family has gone, and that Brodda has plundered their home and set up a hall nearby. All the folk of Hador are enslaved, and the Easterling tongue is now the main language.
What about Beleg? I think that he tried to remind Turin of his duty by giving him the Helm of Hador, but it took until now for him to come. Is he still influencing Turin? It seems apparent that Dor-Lomin has been entirely subjugated. Does Turin still think of his lordship? Does he despair of regaining it and disappointing his parents?
Turin enters the hall and finds Sador. Turin asks after his mother and sister more closely after revealing himself, but Sador can tell little, except that it was thought that 'Lord' Turin had summoned them, and that the people of Dor-Lomin thought he had come to greatness.
What do you think of Sador's re-appearance? Why might he be re-introduced? Turin says that Sador had wakened thoughts of battle in his mind where there were previously none. What were his previous intentions in coming? Was part of the dragon-spell to render him passive to the events, thus unable to influence them? Is Sador then, partly responsible for the breaking of the spell? The folk still loyal to Turin's family had hopes that Turin grew in power and strength in the South. Why? Was it a selfish thought of deliverance, or an over-confident assurance in their lord's greatness? Are they thinking of Turin as a successor to his great father?
Sador then says that Aerin, wife to Brodda and kinswoman to Morwen, might know more of her counsels, but he cautions Turin against the dangers of confronting Brodda and the Easterlings. Turin replies that it will not be so, and strides into the hall.
What aid besides food might Aerin have given Morwen? Why would Brodda let her feed the poor in the hall as she does? Turin's pride resurfaces, but why? Is this in response to his defeat by Glaurung? Is he trying to prove himself? Sador cautions Turin wisely, but he doesn't listen to his childhood friend and teacher. Is this rejection similar to his self-imposed exile from Doriath? Does he think to have out-grown them? Did Sador have a plan that Turin did not give him the chance to air? Could this have been avoided?
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Jun 15 2014, 1:48am
Post #4 of 58
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fter thrusting his way to the high board, he calls out for Brodda insultingly. Brodda allows Turin to speak to Aerin, but she cannot tell him what he wants.
Brodda's actions here are strange--hardly the actions of a savage. Why does he indulge Turin? He even seems to love his wife and protect her from a perceived slander, even though he physically ill-uses her. What is this strange sense of honour?
After Turin calls Aerin a liar, Brodda attacks Turin, but he is easily restrained by him, and Turin interrogates Aerin further. Turin declares his name, and calls on his authority to compel Aerin to speak.
Aerin seems to be in fear of Brodda at first, but now she seems reticent of her own will. Does she love Brodda? Does she fear him? Is there an animus she harbours towards Turin? If she accepted his commands, why would she doubt Turin's identity? Was it a subtle slight to him, that she could not recognise him? Or is this all subterfuge to keep herself in a position to help her people by playing neutral and keeping Brodda's favour?
Turin then laughs at the news he gleans, and blames Morgoth. Then he comes to an understanding of the truth as the spell loosens. He then pines for an honourable death at Nargothrond, and is haunted by Finduilas' memory. In a fit, he kills Brodda and others who are nearby and unarmed.
Is Turin fey here? What does it mean that the 'spell of Glaurung loosed its last threads'? Was it of no more effect, or did it come to full effect now? His killing of Brodda now seems very unjust. It reminds me of Saeros, with less provocation or redemption. Is this a foreshadowing connexion to Brandir? What of all the people that have died around Turin? Is it their fault or his? Turin slays many unarmed men. What do you think of that?
The thralls then rise against the Easterlings, and a bloody conflict ensues that leaves many dead, but Turin claims victory. Sador then, mortally wounded, delivers a final warning to Turin. He is rejoiced to see Turin return and free them, but advises him to flee unless he can come back with greater strength.
This slaughter reminds me of Homer's return when he slays his wife's suitors in his own hall, but with a bitter twist. Sador here applauds Turin, but are his words mere self-satisfaction of revenge? Did he condone Turin's actions?
Aerin then seems to become instantly more helpful, advising Turin to leave quickly as Sador counseled. She foresees her own death, and that of those who took part in the killing, but will not leave to freeze in the winter snow. To his credit, Turin does offer to take her, but she refuses to go. The able-bodied men in the hall follow Turin and they look back to see the hall ablaze, kindled by Aerin. They weather the winter, and part ways from Turin, asking him to return only with greater strength.
Has Aerin been playing a part all along, as she has with Brodda? The hall-firing, was this her funeral pyre? It is said she was patient and quiet, so is there a connexion to Morwen? Is that why they were so close? Turin seems to love protecting women, but it never works out for him, does it? Where do Turin's companions go after the winter? Could he not win them over? Is this just a logistical problem of sustenance and weapons, or did he fear the end of the Outlaw Band for them?
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Jun 15 2014, 1:49am
Post #5 of 58
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Turin now has to choose between his Family, Finduilas, and his Lordship and People. His choice is to neglect his family in Doriath, and to seek Finduilas instead, momentarily postponing his quest to free his peoples.
His reasoning seems superficially sound as to why he does not return to Doriath, but how much might be pride and excuse? He goes to look for Finduilas NOW? It's been weeks, what chance did think he would have?
He travels and comes upon some woodsmen of the House of Haleth, surrounded by orcs. He rescues them, and they take him to the death mound of Finduilas.
In saving the men, is he just following his instincts? I get the sense that he is disinterested. Why does Turin give himself another name? Is this secrecy, or running from what he perceives as his fate? Is he hiding from Morgoth, the Curse, or the Easterlings? How many names has he had by now?
Falling stricken by grief, the woodsmen recognise Turin, and carry him to Brethil. Brandir, their lord, looks at him, and once he recognises him, deems death a better fate for him and his people. When questioned by his men if they should have forsaken charity, he philosophically says that Doom was served by their actions, and he tends Turin personally.
Brandir's reaction interests me. He seems to sense the danger in Turin, but it seems a deeper perception than could be gained from mere tidings. He seems to be very discerning. This mention of Doom recalls the use of the word by Ulmo to Tuor, in the sense that the Valar and their servants (In that case, Osse) 'serve the Doom'. Is it the natural bent of the world that seems to want to have its own way? Could it be compared to the concept of wyrd and challenging the Fates? We had some interesting discussion on these topics, but what are your thoughts in this context? Does Brandir believe 'the Doom' to be inexhorable, thus his easy reconciliation to Turin's presence?
Turin awakes and comes to new resolution: from here on his deeds, which were evil, will now be for good. He will renounce his name, and forsake all former ties to free himself, or at least not hurt those close to him. He takes hubristically proud name 'Master of Doom'
Now this seems audacious. Sadly, I see it as a useless gesture, and a glorified self-resolution. He will run away from his problems to fix them. What do you see? In changing his name (Again!?) he, knowingly or not, takes a similar title to Morgoth as 'Master of fate/doom'. Is this intentional?
Trying to forget his old life, Turin still cannot stay still without hunting orcs. Laying aside his sword as a link to his old life as Mormegil, he and his friend hunt them, though it displeased Brandir. Dorlas later brings up the topic of his true name, but Turin charges him not to speak of it.
This seems similar to Nargothrond. The disapproving lord, the concealment of a name, and the urge to fight orcs. You think he'd learn. What else do you see? Is this a brighter day for Turin? I see a scared boy running and hiding.
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Meneldor
Valinor
Jun 15 2014, 2:27am
Post #6 of 58
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Why would Brodda let her feed the poor in the hall as she does?
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My theory: Brodda (and everyone else) knows he is not the rightful lord, which is sure to make things difficult for him. By acting as a generous and benevolent ruler, he hopes to keep the people quiet and cooperative. It's a political maneuver, chosen to lessen rebelliousness in his subjects.
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters; These see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep.
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Jun 21 2014, 12:28pm
Post #7 of 58
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Hullo Rem! How are you? You are looking quite dapper today!
Thank you Rem! You are not so bad yourself!
Ah, Rem? We could sit here telling each other how awesome we are (We know we could! ) or we could tackle some of these knotty questions.
Oh do let's!
Well then, as I am the one who wrote these questions, I'll as you to answer them.
Alright, let's get started!... We really are awesome aren't we!?
*groan*
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Jun 21 2014, 1:37pm
Post #8 of 58
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Well Rem, Nargothrond has just been destroyed! How does that make you feel?
*Sniff* It's all really sad! This is the kingdom of THE Finrod Felagund, arguably the most well developed Elf in the First Age. He meets Men, Talks philosophy with the Wise, Honours his debts to Barahir via Beren, and heroically sacrifices himself to save Beren. Fingolfin might have him beat in the heroics, but that was more a one-off. All this good stuff, I think, has got to count for some major Karma points, but no, Gondolin was the last Elven Kingdom to fall. Guess it pays to have a divine patron. You'd think Finrod would have listened much better than Turgon!
Ah yes, quite sad. Leaving things to your brother... Not always the best choice!
Hey! What are you implying!?
What!.....Oh, I don't mean YOU! I trust you like...well...myself!
Oh...OK!!!
Back to the topic....Turin is the real focus here--he is named in the title of the book. What doI you think of him?
Home wrecker, Moody, Sulker, and well overdue for a life intervention! Oh,,, sorry! Too blunt? Well, in this specific case, I think he's got just an inkling of proper shame. You know when your plans go sideways, no needs to tell you whose fault it is. I think Turin is feeling pretty bad now, realising this is HIS fault. It could be his path to redemption, but instead he tries to 'fix' things by going Mano-a-....draco? with a totally evil, psychopath fire-breather! Midlife crisi anyone? In this way, I think he had found a person, uh dragon, that is all too ready to take the blame. So Turin gets rid of his guilt, and blames Glaurung, or the curse, for the ills that befell him.
Ah yes, it was Gwindor who first told Turin of the Curse. Might it be fresh in his mind?
Considering the small page count between this portion and Geindor's revelation to Turin (Not to mention the funny coincidence that in escaping from Angband/Evil, Gwindor spreads Morgoth's rumour and the Curse.), I think it is supposed to be in the reader's mind. He might be thinking of it, or not, but I don't see him exactly taking it 'like a man'. He laments the fact that all he does ends badly, but I don't ever see him apologise or take responsibility for anything. He might well be under a powerful Curse, but can it take away all his free-will and absolve him of any blame? I, for one think not. It's nice to think that we are a helpless soul, lost in an ocean if uncertainty and buffeted by the cruel winds of Fate, because it is a perfectly horrid picture that anyone can pity, but we can still dog-paddle in the ocean. Turin might be having a little pity-party.
Let's talk about that dragon. He seems to dominate the stage at the beginning of the chapter.
Yes, he certainly has a presence. You've for this killing machine, huge, albeit wingless,(A strange notion for many), he's killed an entire Elven army, almost single-handedly, but now he takes time out of his rampage to have a chat with Turin! To switch from that unstoppable rage to a calm deceptive dialogue-- he's a dangerous one I'd not like to meet any where. He'll use force when needed, but he has all the cunning to outwit the cleverest! He's not on a blind rampage, enjoying the carnage, but instead, it seems that it is only a means to his end. Cold, calculating malice in the violence-- It chills my heart!
Yes, terrible indeed! How about bringing in another serpent-tongued sweet-talker? Smaug the...well forget about the titles-- he's not here to insist on them. How does he compare?
You know... I get the sense of a similarity, yet a discrepancy in size. I imagine Glaurung larger, but they both routed an kingdom that might have hosted Elves and Men, so the doors and such were probably the same size. The wingless-ness of Glaurung still bugs me, but I still he think he was the greater danger. Smaug definitle took a few pages from Glauring's book, but Glaurung was the master. His dragon-spell, since it actually has greater effect in the other party conversing with him, might come off as stronger. There really can't be a comparison accurate enough for us to rule, but consider the fact that Glaurung fought Elves of the First Age, and Smaug didn't have to fight until well into the Third. Entropy might have done Smaug some good, breaking the old strength of the Free people's, but then again I'd be scared of an army of Dwarves and their traps!
Turin then, astonishingly, is let go! What do you make of that?
A bit of cat-and-mouse, or maybe Glaurung is still here following Morgoth's orders, so he doesn't kill him yet. In any case, it only prolonged the agony. Turin seems to take it in typical Turin-fashion-- he doesn't quit while he's ahead. So a big dragon doesn't roast you, the one the M-E Devil has sworn to torment and harm. Why? Maybe that is the problem. Turin is just so confused, he's hardly had an easy childhood, and who was really there for him to talk to about the meaning of life kind if stuff? I don't think he knows how to cope with this. Then you throw in hypnotising mind control of an Evil Spirit. Bad juu juu can be the only result of this mix.
Well Turin is in a fix for sure, but them he comes to a familiar place.
Yeah, Ivrin. He came here in, what I think was, a catatonic state after killing Beleg. Why'd he come here? Did he mean too? I don't know, but this is one of the few places that Turin revisits in his life. He's always moving forward, almost never looking back. Bye Doriath! So long Amon Rudh! Sayonara Nargothrond! This lack of rooting might contribute to a feeling of isolation, and retiring to a place, only to find it unpleasantly changed wield put him off doing it again. Just wait till he gets home!
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Jun 21 2014, 4:38pm
Post #9 of 58
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Well, there's no place like home! Wouldn't you agree Rem!
Yes I do! I had a friend Dorothy that said much the same thing!
Now Turin is home, but this anything but a typical homecoming!
You can say that again!
Now Turin is home, but this anything but a typical homecoming!
Oh, shut up! Turin is home, and I begin to wonder just why he hasn't come back before. You are so grieved at leaving your mom as a kid, but then you go Orc-happy and don't come back for what--10+years, even though you don't make friends easily and times are tough? He might be trying to create a place where his family can live in comfort and safety, or else the onus of revenge has been passed from mother and father to the overburdened son. I think part of his problem is that he is a disposed lord, but he seems to take no steps to reclaim his homeland and lordship, so we can't root for him in the same way we might for Aragorn or Thorin.
He is no Aragorn. I can't help but wonder what he expected to find.
I wonder too, but given the fact of his concealment and early memories, I think he expected to have to sneak in. That mindset of anonymity might have very well been a comfort to him in the midst of his failure. I wouldn't want to show my face openly after such a catastrophe as Nargothrond!
I see your point. He does slink around the old house, but finds it empty. I'd have more than a spasm of fear here. Where'd they go!!!
Yes, but Turin betrays none of that-- not to say he didn't have that knee-jerk reaction, but it isn't shown. He is collected enough to sneak into Brodda's hall where he meets Sador again. Sador recognised him as kin by his speech, the old tongue. I think this detail of language an interesting thing. Was this a conscious plot point?-- it connects Sador to the mysterious Turin. Or a linguistic indulgence of Tolkien's? In any case this familiar source tells Turin what he wants to know.
Not exactly what he wanted to hear though...
No, I think he thought to rescue them, but was relieved that they were safe-ish. They were in a place he would not go, so I think that prevented them from meeting-- setting up the unfortunate situation with Nienor. Another instance of pride getting in the way!
He is proud, and a bit of a disappointment I'd say.
If only to himself, yes. He may have only set himself up to fail. He had his Father's expectations, his Mother's, Thingol and Melian's, Beleg's, and now his people's added to it. That can only be a kick to his ego. What follows later might just be his old bravado stirring.
Interesting enough, I think of Frodo. Both Turin and Frodo had great destinies. Both could have seemed impossible. Getting revenge on a god/Vala, and getting into Mordor undetected, passing its defences, and climbing a volcano to rid yourself of something that would only sap your will and strength the whole way there--impossible! Frodo made it thought, why? Well I think part of the answer is in motivation, Frodo wanted to save others and follow duty; Turin was on a darker path of revenge. Frodo also had companions he trusted, one in particular. Turin alienated a lot and killed his closest friend. Frodo went on, and I get the sense he broke image impossible quest down into 'one more step/day'; Turin seems to always focus on the endgame, wildly running about, hoping it will work out. When does he ever get proactive in reclaiming his destiny? He thinks too big--beat up Morgoth--, or too small-- fight orcs. In his final act at Dor-Lommin, he illustrates his narrow and short-sighted focus all too well.
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Jun 21 2014, 5:02pm
Post #10 of 58
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Moving on, things escalate quickly!
Yes, Turin takes matters into his own hands.
In what follows, and even though we know Brodda is an interloper, I find myself rooting for him more than Turin. Turin just seems wrong. I think of the Easterlings in LotR, specifically the one Sam pities. This might well be a hint toward the goodness still in them.
Was it always like that?
No, not really... It was only after a few reads that I detached myself from Turin. Before, I had always thought Turin was the hero-- ergo he could do no wrong. That changed. In this encounter, Turin almost comes off as a Villian. I think it might be his bitterness at work, maybe because his choice to abandon Finduilas was ill-considered. He might have come unhinged a bit, or is this the dragon-spell? Regardless he is ugly here.
Rather unlikable, yes. He goes on skulking spree and then runs.
This is the short-sighted action I referred to earlier. He instigates rebellion, but where is it up to from there? Aerin seems much more suited to lead her people, and she appreciates Turin's faults fully. I think she was playing a long game here, but Turin had upset the board. Her hall-firing, I had always assumed was suicide, do you agree? If so, what are the implications considering the evil action as Tolkien the Catholic would consider it?
I don't know, your the expert!
Ah yes, I forgot...
Finally, I'd like to say that this seems to close a chapte in Turin's life. He's lost Doraith with Beleg, Amon Rudh with the death of the Band, Nargothrond with Finduilas, and now his home as a hunted man.
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Mikah
Lorien
Jun 21 2014, 6:01pm
Post #11 of 58
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I have not forgotten our fellowship of the discussion. I have had a very, very busy week with VA appointments and work. I beg forgiveness for my absence. I have errands to get caught up on this morning, but will be back to add my thoughts regarding this time in Turin's life. Again, I apologize.
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cats16
Half-elven
Jun 21 2014, 6:15pm
Post #12 of 58
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I'll try to catch up by the end of the weekend! Sorry to leave you to talk with yourself, Rem!!
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Brethil
Half-elven
Jun 21 2014, 11:50pm
Post #13 of 58
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Rem, we've left you alone for too long, clearly. I'm in the same apology boat...just a very bad week and then a very busy one has left me very torn away (<----see what I did there?)
Will also post some ideas after dinner! 
The next TORn Amateur Symposium is a special edition: the Jubilee TAS to celebrate 60 years of FOTR! If you have an LOTR idea you would like to write about, we'd love to see your writing featured there!
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Brethil
Half-elven
Jun 22 2014, 1:32am
Post #14 of 58
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What might he be thinking? He's lost everything again. How much his despair might be dragon-spell? Is there a parallel to the power of Smaug to be drawn? How much of these actions are dragon-spell induced, and how much is natural grief and agony? Turin seems such a creature of ACTION, at all costs. He reacts by acting, seemingly without much thought for the present: the losses seem to transport him back to childhood, and that deep early wound, the parting from Morwen. How much of the present was to make up and the fill the void of his past? (I've said this before, but I find that Dragon's Eye fascinating. Another aspect of The Serpent, but who wreaks havoc by both taking away and giving knowledge in order to cause pain.)
Unpleasantly reminded of his family, he sets out and comes to Ivrin again, the same place he was healed after Beleg died. He came 'with the first ice of winter', but found the pool frozen.
He came 'with' winter. Is this symbolic of his growth as a person? Is Turin entering his personal winter? Is his Spring and Summer past? Did he even mean to come to Ivrin? Was it to re-capture the renewal he had before, and make another fresh start? How does the ice impact this analogy? Is it symbolic of the barriers between him and good fortune? Great connection...it does seem like his personal winter begins, and even Ulmo 'sleeps' with the waters frozen. Reminds me of the idea 'when God and His saints slept...' (which I read and enjoyed). Even the tireless warrior Ulmo seems to be unavailable to help Turin in this time. I do think he hoped to make a fresh start yet again, after the wound from more loss. But it was nit to happen, and that seems *almost* a judgment.
The next TORn Amateur Symposium is a special edition: the Jubilee TAS to celebrate 60 years of FOTR! If you have an LOTR idea you would like to write about, we'd love to see your writing featured there!
(This post was edited by Brethil on Jun 22 2014, 1:34am)
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Brethil
Half-elven
Jun 22 2014, 1:45am
Post #15 of 58
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I don't care for Brodda at all
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What about Beleg? I think that he tried to remind Turin of his duty by giving him the Helm of Hador, but it took until now for him to come. Is he still influencing Turin? It seems apparent that Dor-Lomin has been entirely subjugated. Does Turin still think of his lordship? Does he despair of regaining it and disappointing his parents? I don't think he sees as far as 'lordship'. Once again, he is reacting to the situation; I am intrigued here by comparison of what Tuor would have done: likely more of a long game versus the in-the-moment thought of Turin.
What do you think of Sador's re-appearance? Why might he be re-introduced? Turin says that Sador had wakened thoughts of battle in his mind where there were previously none. What were his previous intentions in coming? Was part of the dragon-spell to render him passive to the events, thus unable to influence them? Is Sador then, partly responsible for the breaking of the spell? The folk still loyal to Turin's family had hopes that Turin grew in power and strength in the South. Why? Was it a selfish thought of deliverance, or an over-confident assurance in their lord's greatness? Are they thinking of Turin as a successor to his great father? Sador in some ways may represent the voice of the lost father figure. In this case, it recalls Turin to his past again - which was actually good. Yet the tales of the treatment of Morwen (and he was not wrong to tell them) have the effect of revitalizing yet turning Turin back to unhappiness. He seems most alive when he is seeking, and not happy...a restful life with a white picket fence does not seem to be his lot, no matter what the circumstances. The loyalty to the family and the hope that Turin was a great lord strike me as feudal, with the whole village invested in the success of its 'prince'. Plus, the idea of him being strong and well-off may have been a point of hope for them in hopeless times.
What aid besides food might Aerin have given Morwen? Why would Brodda let her feed the poor in the hall as she does? Turin's pride resurfaces, but why? Is this in response to his defeat by Glaurung? Is he trying to prove himself? Sador cautions Turin wisely, but he doesn't listen to his childhood friend and teacher. Is this rejection similar to his self-imposed exile from Doriath? Does he think to have out-grown them? Did Sador have a plan that Turin did not give him the chance to air? Could this have been avoided?I am sure Aerin gave Morwen information - making her more or less the equal to Brodda in that case, which I am sure infuriated him. He likes to be 'better' - thus the feeding of the poor, I would guess. Plus it allows control and monitoring over their mealtimes - times of relaxation and discussion. I love your connect: not listening to Sador and the self-imposed exile from Doriath both happen in the heat of pride and cause him harm, when he insists on standing alone. Excellent point.
The next TORn Amateur Symposium is a special edition: the Jubilee TAS to celebrate 60 years of FOTR! If you have an LOTR idea you would like to write about, we'd love to see your writing featured there!
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Mikah
Lorien
Jun 22 2014, 2:38am
Post #16 of 58
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I am in agreement here. Turin does react by acting. Some would call this courage. A lot of times courage can be simply getting through things and doing, when you do not know what else to do. Many, many people would be completely broken at this point, Turin is not and I respect him for that. My mother used to tell me that when you do not know what to do...just do something and give God the opportunity to bless it. Her advice reminds me of Turin. She would like Turin.
Far be it for me to discount the spell of a dragon, I believe in their power very much in Tolkien's world. But I believe that Turin's despair is very real indeed. The dragon has just told Turin all about himself in a most distorted light. Here Turin has also made a horrific mistake, I count him at least partially responsible for the fall of Nargothrond, I believe he holds himself responsible as well. When a person is not feeling all that good about themselves, it is easy to see themselves in the worst possible view. Lord knows that Glaurung did not help things any...as was his intent. However, I personally believe that Turin's despair would have been much the same, dragon spell or no.
I noticed that analogy too..."he came with Winter." Yes, this is Winter in Turin's life. A time that can most definitely break him...and many weaker people it would.
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Neldoreth
The Shire
Jun 22 2014, 2:45am
Post #17 of 58
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Not so much a villain, but more a guy with really bad judgement...
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I agree, this is the place where my sympathies toward Turin start to run dry. Up to this point, I can see him as someone who is a victim of his circumstances, his own youthful folly and Morgoth's curse. However, it seemed that there was really no reason for him to go on a killing spree in a land that he had previously disregarded.
The only thing I can come up with to make sense of this part of the story is that he just...snapped. It's as if he had some notion in the back of his mind that all would be well at home and all would be as it was when he left as a child (granted, still not all well or he wouldn't have been sent off to be fostered by Thingol), only to find it completely changed and taken over by an invading force. This discovery, added to the recent destruction of Nargothrond, the encounter with Glaurung, and Finduilas's capture, was just too much for him and he went berserk.
This is the point where I start to wonder how much of the Turin's seeming ill-fortune is of his own making, rather than Morgoth's curse alone. He really does have a terrible temper and lashes out at the worst times!
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Mikah
Lorien
Jun 22 2014, 3:13am
Post #18 of 58
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His reasoning seems superficially sound as to why he does not return to Doriath, but how much might be pride and excuse? He goes to look for Finduilas NOW? It's been weeks, what chance did think he would have?
Turin had every reason to believe his family to be safe in Doriath, I believe he thought it was probably the safest place for them. I do not fault him for that. What I do find interesting though, is that it is a very dangerous journey to Doriath, I wonder why he would not go to make sure that they had made it? Was it indeed pride which kept him from seeking them? Having to face Thingol and Melian? Would he have believed that they would hold him responsible for the fall of Norgothrond? I find it very interesting that there is no indication that they felt this way at all. So maybe it was pride, as you indicate.
Regarding Finduilas, I am not certain that he believed he would find her. Perhaps "a fool's hope" as Gandalf would say; but not much more than that. But there are those times that we act in that hope and once in a great while it works out for us. Maybe that was the prayer that Turin was hanging onto here. As Brethil pointed out, Turin is not a person to meditate much on his circumstances. He just kind of acts and not knowing what else to do...he seeks Finduilas.
In saving the men, is he just following his instincts? I get the sense that he is disinterested. Why does Turin give himself another name? Is this secrecy, or running from what he perceives as his fate? Is he hiding from Morgoth, the Curse, or the Easterlings? How many names has he had by now?
It is of my opinion that when he saves the men he is following his instincts, which I believe says something about Turin. You see, an average person's reaction would be that of self preservation. It is easy to be courageous or generous when you are not giving anything of yourself. But, this is a situation where Turin would be putting his own life into jeopardy...and he does it anyway. That is Turin, whatever negative things can be said about him, craven is not one of them. And I believe that amidst acts of courage is when Turin feels best about himself.
What's in a name? Everything...a person's whole identity is wrapped up in their name. It is how we identify ourselves and one another. Eg. Do you know Rem? Of course I do, he is that dapper fellow I discuss Tolkien literature with! You see, it is how I identify you. I believe that people tend to change their names when they no longer care for that person that the name represents. They begin to despise the identity that the name has given them. They seek to find a name that they believe more fitting and in some cases, the name of a person that they wish they could be. I believe that is what Turin does with often changing his name. Much like a snake shedding his skin. Perhaps he believes that with the shedding of his name, comes the shedding of a painful past that name reminds him of. Once again, it is possible that I am reading way to much into this, but these were my thoughts in my reading of this book.
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Mikah
Lorien
Jun 22 2014, 3:50am
Post #19 of 58
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I personally do not care for Brodda either. I really do not mind that Turin slays him...even unarmed. I understand that it is not the most honorable thing to do, but Brodda would not have been able to beat Turin in one on one combat, even if he was armed. I kind of think that Turin hated what Brodda represented: the enslavement of his people, the usurper of his father's place. I find no honor in Brodda and believe that it is fitting that he died a dishonorable death. I will take it a step further and also say that I do not believe he loved Aerin. He loved her only as a possession. He would deem any insult toward Aerin as an insult toward himself. Kind of like a person may get insulted if someone says that they do not like your shoes or car or such. Merely a possession.
I am also doubting that Aerin much loved Brodda. Maybe she had a bit of Stockholm Syndrome, but that is certainly not love. Fear of the unknown is not love either, nor is fearing a worse predicament than you are already in. Any of these things could be going on, but it would take much convincing for me to believe that there is any love between these two. It brings to mind an episode of Game of Thrones when Daenerys tells Ser Jorah "sometimes slaves learn to love their chains."
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 22 2014, 5:52pm
Post #20 of 58
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Help! Rem's clones are showing up
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Very sorry to have been absent from the RR while you did such an expert chapter analysis, Rem! I just needed a personal break from Tolkien and it's no reflection on all the great things you had to say.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 22 2014, 6:14pm
Post #21 of 58
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I'm not brooding over Brodda either
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It's great that Rem compares Saeros to Brodda and the justice of killing either one. I would have never made that connection myself, and I do see some similarities now.
But upfront I'll say I have the gut feeling that Saeros was killed unjustly and Brodda had it coming to him. That's gut feeling from the tone of the story, not a well-reasoned argument.
Both people were despicable. Saeros actually attacked Turin, while Brodda was sitting at home doing nothing, effectively watching TV--do you kill someone for that, or because you think they're a jerk? A big difference I see between them is that Saeros seems very much an individual whereas Brodda could have been any Easterling, and he seemed to represent all Easterlings' worst traits: forcibly marrying women, treating people like cattle, being a brute and oppressor and servant of Morgoth. (I'm sure he'd list the latter as his hobbies in an online dating profile.) In that sense, there is some justice in Turin killing Brodda because he's striking out at the evil Men who sided with Morgoth and betrayed the Good People in the Nirnaeth. I'd like to club him myself.
But I go back to thinking of him doing nothing to harm Turin at the time, and killing Brodda didn't set the Edain free and only made things worse for them, so I become a little neutral on the justice of what seems a righteous act of insurrection, and I conclude that Rem is right that death follows Turin like a dog on a chain, sweeping its sickle across the heads of anyone unlucky enough to be in the same room as him.
Was all that venomous talk from Glaurung a booster shot to a curse that was possibly losing its potency? Is that why everything went wrong in Dor-Lomin?
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 22 2014, 6:17pm
Post #22 of 58
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I like your use of that term here, Mikah! I can't imagine Aerin being in love with Brodda, or him valuing her as more than a trophy wife. At best they put up with each other, and she made the best out of the bad situation she found herself in. Otherwise, yes, she probably fell for her captor, but in a psychological reaction, not any kind of, "Yeah, he's a barbarian, but he's cute, and he treats me special" romance. I almost get the sense that she was relieved to end it all by burning up with the house, the way an abused wife can just snap after so many bad years together.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 22 2014, 6:22pm
Post #23 of 58
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That's a genuine question from me, not a hypothesis. Tolkien says that Turin turns easily to pity, which I don't see a lot of myself, but taking that at face value, is this how he vents his pity for his oppressed people, by striking out at their barbarous lord?
Or is this the curse and dragon-spell at work, so he'd find a reason to slaughter anyone or anything, even a bunch of cute bunnies?
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 22 2014, 6:25pm
Post #24 of 58
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brodda the easterling bunny //
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aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 22 2014, 6:31pm
Post #25 of 58
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How does Turin define "having a good day"?
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"He seems most alive when he is seeking, and not happy...a restful life with a white picket fence does not seem to be his lot, no matter what the circumstances. The loyalty to the family and the hope that Turin was a great lord strike me as feudal, with the whole village invested in the success of its 'prince'. Plus, the idea of him being strong and well-off may have been a point of hope for them in hopeless times."
Great observations, Breth! If he's not kicking over the hornet's nest, what's the poor guy to do to stave off boredom? I suppose the closest he ever came to the picket fence was later when he was married to Nienor, but that was a brief point in his life, and other times when he had a decent roof over his head (Doriath and Nargothrond), he had to stir things up and seek for some action. He seems happiest to me when he was chief of the outlaws, partly because he was his own boss, partly because he was living on the edge of survival, and that's where he thrives.
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Oh dear!
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