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New Line Cinema Sued by Tolkein Estate (over film profits...)
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Peredhil lover
Valinor

Feb 13 2008, 6:41am

Post #126 of 342 (14233 views)
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Priscilla Tolkien [In reply to] Can't Post

And I know that Priscilla visited the Oxonmoot 2003 and was asked if she thinks her father would have liked the movies. She said she doesn't believes it, but she doesn't know. Another rather cautious and neutral statement,IMO.

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


Sunflower
Valinor

Feb 13 2008, 6:42am

Post #127 of 342 (14161 views)
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Know what's fishy to me? [In reply to] Can't Post

Now that I think about it.

Regarding the timing...art and commerce....if I were CT, and so zealous in protecting the integrity of my father's work, if I heard that Mirimax, the studio that brought us "The Crying Game" and "Pulp Fiction" (run by the famous Harvey Scissorhands, no less) were intending to slice LOTR up into 2 2 -hr long films, I would have sued Zaentz and Mirimax to get the rights back long ago. I would be in such a panic, I'd have attempted the impossible, at least. Knowing just by knowing that, how much of the tale would have had to be eviscerated.

Why didn't the Estate attempt to sue to get the rights back before? I don't know. It seems to me that they may have had the opportunity to sue in the past, and didn't do it. Are a studio's owning the rights such an ironclad thing, that they can't be sued, at least?

The thing that bothers me is that we honestly don't know how much of this is an honest desire for money and the desire for artistic control. People who can't decide on their motiives....well. In the late 90's he took a look at the Mirimax film situation and didn't seem to mind the impending desecration of LOTR, b/c they needed money. Now that they are in a posiition of strength, like I said, we can't tell if it's 2 birds with one stone.

Which to me seems the height of cynicism, on his part. Call me disrespectful, but there it is. I wish someone could interview him and ask his real reasons.


MrCere
Sr. Staff


Feb 13 2008, 6:59am

Post #128 of 342 (14190 views)
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I don't think she has seen them either [In reply to] Can't Post

One of the two people I talked with told me that. It was a few years ago so it may have happened since. Your comment is VERY interesting and seems to leave the possibility open that she doesn't know because she hasn't seen them!

It would seem that with the film widely available on DVD or VHS tape or on television, they might accidentally watch it!

The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie


Sunflower
Valinor

Feb 13 2008, 7:02am

Post #129 of 342 (14174 views)
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This puzzles me [In reply to] Can't Post

As you said, Zaentz sued NL a few yrs ago, for breach of contract. He was screwed over by NL just as much as the Estate was. And he was just as unsuccessful as the Estate at getting their just due.

Surely CT and the Estate can see that? Zaentz just didn't leave them out to dry. He isn't on the same low level as NL Far from it. He *fought* NL! So WHY would the Estate want to make an enemy out of Zaentz, by lumping him alongside NL in the suit? Zeantz is their ally, not their enemy.

If it turns out the way you forecast, then we shall see what the REAL motives are. Seems to me the Zaentz's only real crime was allowing the...well, I won't go down this path again.

Peredhil will not be the only one on here whose opinion of CT unexpectedly sinks, if this is ever suspected. It will never be proven, of course.


Sunflower
Valinor

Feb 13 2008, 7:08am

Post #130 of 342 (14178 views)
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Can I co-sue?:) [In reply to] Can't Post

B/c God knows how desperately I need the money.

ROFL....


Peredhil lover
Valinor

Feb 13 2008, 7:22am

Post #131 of 342 (14172 views)
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Yes [In reply to] Can't Post

From Bob Shaye, I'd believe everything by now, it wouldn't surprise me any bit if he tried something like that. But CT is another matter entirely - I simply refuse to believe he would do this until I get undeniable proof for it.

And you're right about the 'art for cash' thing. The sale of books has certainly increased since the movies came out, and when they finally get their share from NL, I'd say that compensates for the small amount of money JRRT once got for the rights. Nobody could have known back then that LotR would be such a success over decades and particularly that one day a movie trilogy would be made; for a movie everyone thought was unfilmable it was a nice sum for the time, IMO. And as it still pays off (if NL is finally paying, of course ...), I think it is okay.

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


Peredhil lover
Valinor

Feb 13 2008, 7:28am

Post #132 of 342 (14185 views)
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*grin* [In reply to] Can't Post

You know, that's a point. Nobody asked if *she* has seen them, as far as I know, so it's possible she didn't know them back then, either. Would be interesting to know.

Now, with all of them available on DVD or VHS, I could imagine they would maybe be a bit more inclined to watch at all, because it wouldn't be so public as in a cinema. In their place, I'd not want to be besieged by curious fans questioning them about every single detail and avoid the cinema at all costs! Oh well, maybe one day we will know ...

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


Peredhil lover
Valinor

Feb 13 2008, 7:31am

Post #133 of 342 (14161 views)
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We should found a Sue Estate ;-) // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


Draupne
Forum Admin / Moderator

Feb 13 2008, 9:56am

Post #134 of 342 (14177 views)
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I'm guessing [In reply to] Can't Post

AL's post was about Tolkien Forevers post, Sunflower, not yours.
:-)


fryguy34167
The Shire

Feb 13 2008, 10:22am

Post #135 of 342 (14152 views)
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Response to Sunflower [In reply to] Can't Post

Zaentz has not been named in the lawsuit filed against New Line. I am merely speculating that the estate and Harper Collins will seek to have the film rights returned to them as part of any settlement as this suit may in fact provide them with an opportunity to do so.

As to your opinion that Zaentz is the ally of the estate, I believe you are looking at things perhaps a bit to simplistically. Zaentz has control of some of Tolkien's works. The estate would naturally like to regain control. This makes them adversaries as their positions are not in agreement.

Now as to Zaentz, I do not believe that he committed any "crime" at all. I will venture a guess, however, that Zaentz, in spite of the fact that he assigned the film making rights to New Line, still was responsible to the estate for the 7.5% which Zaentz was contractually obligated to provide.

CT and the estate have every legal right to pursue the course of action they have chosen, whatever their motives. In my opinion CT is doing exactly the right thing and his motives are noble. There is nothing at all wrong with him, the estate and Harper Collins trying to regain control over Tolkien's works. I think that many fans of the film are so upset that their precious Hobbit film might not be made within the time frame they are hoping for that they have unjustifiably slammed CT and the estate for filing suit.

I will state again that we should be supporting Tolkien's family and their estate as Tolkien and his son are the ones who gave us this wonderful story and world we claim to value so much. As I have stated before, I too would like to see the Hobbit on the big screen. I would prefer to see it accomplished with the blessing of CT and his family. I do not have a problem with this film being delayed if it gives us a better film in the long run.

In closing I must again take issue with those who are jumping on CT. I challenge any of you to name one single progeny of a famous author who has done more for the author's fans in terms of cobbling together lost notes, manuscripts, etc and putting them together in a form the authors fans can appreciate. CT has been a god send to all true fans of Middle Earth and I think it is highly unfair to take out your frustrations on him simply because you may have to wait a while to see the Hobbit made into film.


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Feb 13 2008, 10:27am

Post #136 of 342 (14163 views)
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Howdy, overlthe64 :D [In reply to] Can't Post

New Line has definitely left a sour taste for me, and I have the feeling that IF they do lose their rights to making The Hobbit and its sequel, Zaentz will absolutely pull Peter in on it and continue the momentum of prep. I have the feeling that Zaentz won't be caught completely off balance because he and his people (as well as MGM, etc.) were making plans and searching possibilities when NL (Shaye specifically) were vowing Peter would never be involved. It could even be that Zaentz and the Tolkien Estate have had conversations about what would happen if NL wasn't in the picture (pardon the pun).

This is too bizarre to not have a reason for it happening. Jackson wants to make the films, Zaentz wants to make the films with Peter... everything is poised and ready to go except for the fact that all of New Line's manipulations and bad business hobbits... I mean... habits that they apparently have practiced through ALL of the contracts for LotR are coming back to bite them. This also doesn't stop the screenplay/planning process. NL's involvement has nothing to do with the creativity behind these 2 films.

I think IF NL loses and the rights fall back to Zaentz, the only thing left to do is re-write some contracts by changing one of the principles and get on with it! I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see the rights go to a company in NZ called Wingnut. Never say Never when Tolkien's stories are involved. They seem to have this magical protector guiding Tolkien's works to where they belong.

*gazes into crystal ball* I trust it's all going to be fine without a lot of time lost :)




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"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."


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fryguy34167
The Shire

Feb 13 2008, 10:36am

Post #137 of 342 (14161 views)
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Possibly [In reply to] Can't Post

Your speculation as to the future of the film may in fact be correct, assuming Zaentz comes through this whole process unscathed. One thing I will predict, however, is that there will be a delay of at least a year and a half and likely longer in getting this project up and running as I am fairly certain that this legal process will take quite some time to work its way through the courts.


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Feb 13 2008, 10:38am

Post #138 of 342 (14163 views)
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And I don't think [In reply to] Can't Post

Pricilla or any other members who have tried to remain neutral one way or the other in the comments of the films would EVER admit they did see them ;)

I find it hard to believe that none of them have seen any pictures or images from the films when they were being released. I would think they'd want to see a bit of the films to see what the world looks like through Jackson's interpretation after some of the stunning images used in promotions. Even if they didn't appreciate the adaptation, the imagery and music have a life of their own. I'd love for them to experience that aspect of the films... the honour and devotion showered on them from the respect of Tolkien's work.

I wonder if those same family members have ever seen the Rankin/Bass or Bakshi versions of the stories? It could be a universal decision to never see (or admit to seeing) adaptations.

I have the utmost respect for their stand on the films. They don't condemn, they don't promote, they remain unto themselves in their own realm... much like Dwarves, Elves and Hobbits were known to do :)




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Trust him... The Hobbit is coming!

"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."


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grammaboodawg
Immortal


Feb 13 2008, 10:45am

Post #139 of 342 (14145 views)
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That's assuming [In reply to] Can't Post

it must endure the entire process. They could settle by NL agreeing to make good their promises and possibly relinquishing their rights. We'll never know what or if things are discussed and agreed upon behind closed doors. Maybe, "You pull out, we'll drop the suit*. NL would miss out on their collaboration with Jackson... which they'd already decided was totally acceptable before. They'd lose out on the cash cow that will result from the films, but they wouldn't be totally destroyed and live on to make more films. The reality of the time involved is that some of the players who are such a big part of the story have seen many winters, and others may get busy in projects that would make it impossible for them to participate... so the luxury of taking their time could dilute the impact of how these films look in the end; and they don't want that if it's avoidable.

It's a drama, fersher. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out.




sample sample
Trust him... The Hobbit is coming!

"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."


TORn's Observations Lists


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Feb 13 2008, 10:49am

Post #140 of 342 (14150 views)
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*snigger* True True :D [In reply to] Can't Post

Just when I think about changing my footer, something else pops up! *looks through thread* We are a passionate people, aren't we :D We could even fill the page with this one!




sample sample
Trust him... The Hobbit is coming!

"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."


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Earl
Forum Admin / Moderator


Feb 13 2008, 12:38pm

Post #141 of 342 (14138 views)
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Oh Gramma [In reply to] Can't Post

I was gonna suggest you change your footer one of these days since things were definitely going to move ahead at a fast pace. I'm glad I didn't else I would've thought I was the jinx Crazy

Anyway, back to the topic.

Firstly, there's a few thoughts around here to the effect that if the rights revert to the Tolkien Estate, it will only "delay" the production of these movies. With all due respect, I beg to differ. I'm pretty sure that if the TE ever gets the rights back, these movies will never see the light of day. So I understand the anger that fans (who want to see a cinematic adaptation) feel toward the TE, and Christopher Tolkien as well. I am one of them. I am of the belief that once you hand over a work of art to the populace, it belongs as much to them as it does to the creator. I am not justifying the fact that they can/should be misused, but the fact that you should respect the views and interpretations of others as much as you do your own, even if they conflict with each other. After all, that's the reason why Tolkien's works have endured. It spoke to people across generations and cultures because they each made these works their own. And many found they held common views because they went through similar experiences in life, and that these tales spoke to them in a language that made them understand each other.

That's what the movies are about as well. It's why they live on almost a decade later. It's why people like me started a website, it's why people like Magpie pursue the lyrics and emotions behind the soundtracks, it's why people like Gramma are still compiling interesting lists, it's why people like Ohio Hobbit are studying the intricacies behind the filming, and it's why people like us are still discussing them today. And whether Christopher Tolkien likes the movies or not, there's millions of people whose lives have changed (for the better) because of them. And so today, it doesn't matter to me whether he approves of the movies or not. The movies are mine now, and so are all the books he released. And the movies were PJ's since he had the legal right to put forth his interpretation of the tale. Nothing the did could ever make any Tolkien happy. Not Christopher, not JRR. None of the images in either of their heads could be brought alive by PJ. Not with the same passion at least. PJ's movies are great because those were his movies. That he left so much of Tolkien's magic in it is what I applaud him for - it made me appreciate the movies a lot, it made me appreciate the books even more. They are both tied together, even in their contradictions. That's my personal belief and it's what my site is based on.

Of course, that doesn't mean I don't respect the Tolkien's. I do. Very much. But I'm wondering now whether I've been living in a fool's paradise with a glorified image of the Tolkiens. I mean, I base my feelings towards them on the Professor's work and his way of life. I know none of them personally nor much through the media. So I could reserve judgement, but I always chose to believe that they all had the "Tolkien magic", that inexplicable something that all Tolkien fans seem to have. But whether we like it or not, we have to admit that deep down, everyone's after money, even the TE (one might argue the justification behind a deluxe Children of Hurin book with Christopher Tolkien's signature being sold over at the official Harper Collin's site for 300 GBP - its been argued over at their discussion board), and everyone's only waiting for an opportune moment to swoop down and get it. Of course, they probably are fighting for what's rightfully theirs, but what irks me is the manner in which it's being done - the suit seems to hold a threat, and it seems very un-Tolkien. It's teetering on the brink of blackmail and I don't like it. That, and the fact that they'd throw in a monkey wrench when they should (as artists) accept the fact that millions now hold their own views of Tolkien's work, and TW/NL/MGM etc. have the legal right to portray it on-screen.

So right now, I'm not really angry, just a little upset, but I'll get over it. The news is still but a day old. Now what this bodes for the upcoming movies is anyone's guess, but I personally hope that the TE gets what's rightfully owed to them, and fans (like me) who've been waiting for these movies get what we've been waiting for.



Peredhil lover
Valinor

Feb 13 2008, 1:04pm

Post #142 of 342 (14142 views)
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Of course they wouldn't admit it [In reply to] Can't Post

But I could truly imagine they've seen them in secret.

Never saw the Rankin/Bass version, but from what I've heard about these earlier movies, I doubt I'd love them. So it would be probably understandable that the Tolkiens aren't happy with movies made from JRRT's work at all. But I always think, even if they're probably as irritated with certain changes PJ made as many fans, they'd at least appreciate the unbelievable love to little details in costumes, weapons and other props. I can't for the life of me imagine any Hollywood made movie would have gone to even a tenth of the trouble Weta did. For me it was not so much the story line itself that worked the magic, but the combination of story and background detail. It made Middle-earth so real - and that was PJ's masterpiece. Can anyone watch that without appreciating it at least a little?

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


burrahobbit
Rohan


Feb 13 2008, 1:31pm

Post #143 of 342 (14166 views)
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Does does the two film 'bridge' idea have any bearing on this? [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't understand all the legal rights and processes unfortunately, but say New Line lose the rights to the film and they revert back to Zaentz, do you think the bridge film idea would stay?

The bridge film concept is a much more dramatic departure from Tolkien than any of the changes PJ's team implemented in the LotR films. Although the idea appeals in some ways, it could be interpreted cynically as a revenue earner. Might it even have been the bridge film idea that has upset the Tolkien estate into wanting to stop The Hobbit going into production? I know they probably just want their money, but it's fun to speculate...


entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Feb 13 2008, 2:37pm

Post #144 of 342 (14135 views)
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Tolkien's letters are copyrighted [In reply to] Can't Post

so they can not be reproduced here. Or linked, either.

Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.
`Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.


NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Feb 13 2008, 3:35pm

Post #145 of 342 (14151 views)
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Just as the litigation [In reply to] Can't Post

that went on between Jackson's camp and NL erupted like a volcano at first, things do settle down. I think part of the intentional impact of a lawsuit is to let go with both barrels to reveal the worse-case scenario. It's like buying and selling. All bargaining starts high and low then eventually find a common ground. I think that's what's going on right now. I sincerely don't believe the Tolkien Estate wants to undermine the films. Even if they don't embrace the projects (past or future), I get the feeling they do honour agreements and contracts. Zaentz bought the rights long ago from J.R.R. Tolkien himself, and I think that his agreements will be honoured.

I think the TE wants NL out. They're sick of the games; and even if NL has learned their lesson in their business dealings (hopefully), it may be too little too late. If they pull out now, they'll still have a company with no threat of losing it (this time).

I'm just going to sit back and wait for the dust to settle. I feel it in my gut that these films will be made, and this will all be settled very soon. I'll let the legals and suits do their thing and just stay out of the way ;) I felt panic before when NL and Peter were at odds. I don't get a smidge of anxiety here. Impatience, yes. Doom, no. :)

I guess I'll keep the footer for a teeeeeeny bit longer ;)




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Trust him... The Hobbit is coming!

"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."


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lauranna
Registered User

Feb 13 2008, 4:54pm

Post #146 of 342 (14162 views)
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And Zaentz is suing NL again... [In reply to] Can't Post

according to Variety: http://www.variety.com/...mp;cs=1&nid=2567


bettybalin
The Shire

Feb 13 2008, 4:57pm

Post #147 of 342 (14112 views)
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Assignors and Assignees [In reply to] Can't Post

Obviously, none of us have seen these mythical contracts, so please take this with a grain of salt. However, even if the TE is owed the money, I rather doubt it will mean the rights will revert to TE.

Assignors (Zaentz) typically do not retain any contractual responsibilities over the assignees (NL). There would be no way to enforce them, and it would be a huge potential liability for the assignor. It would be like an apartment manager being responsible to make sure the tenant pays his utility bills, and if he doesn’t, the apartment manager loses the contract with the owner. Because if you have the responsibility to see that the payment is made, and the payment isn’t made, that means the money would have to come out of your own pocket. You would have the responsibility to audit books, monitor payments, etc. I can’t see Zaentz entering into such a poor, out of norm, contract, he seems like a very savvy entrepreneur.

In addition, if it were so easy to void a contract when the terms aren’t met, Zaentz would have voided the contract and regained the rights when NL didn’t pay him the amount he felt he was owed (edit to add: and he still hasn't been paid in full, apparently! If he's having problems seeing the books for his own payments, he certainly wouldn't be able to see the books to make sure TE gets it's full cut). Usually, failure to meet terms means a whopping great fine (or more likely, an out of court settlement), not rescission of the contract.

However, even if the TE’s legal arguments for the money they felt they are owed are made of string and wet macaroni, they are still capable of tying this up in court for years. Which I’m sure they know, and they know that NL will be motivated to settle quickly. NL isn’t going to relinquish their rights easily, regardless of fault, because after settling with PJ, losing the rights now would just be throwing good money after bad.

On an unrelated note, anyone have any experience with writers contracts? 7.5% of the gross seems awfully high to me, because that’s generally most of a films profit margin. It just seems like a huge cut for a supposed “poor” contract. However, I don’t have a personal experience with writers contracts, I’m just going off half-remembered articles from the trade magazines.


(This post was edited by bettybalin on Feb 13 2008, 5:06pm)


Peredhil lover
Valinor

Feb 13 2008, 5:33pm

Post #148 of 342 (14082 views)
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That seems logical [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for these explanations! Your opinion sounds much more logical than what Fryguy said. As I already stated, I see no way how Zaentz could be held responsible for NL. Had a similar comparison as your tenant in mind when thinking things through :)

We're in for an interesting time, I think, until this all is sorted out. It would be fascinating when, after all is said and done, an insider would write a book about New Line and their questionable accounting! Though that will probably never happen - but I'm getting curious Wink

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Feb 13 2008, 5:46pm

Post #149 of 342 (14097 views)
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That looks to be pretty typical of him [In reply to] Can't Post

Not that it isn't relevant - it looks like his suit is consistent with what we're seeing from the Tolkien estate. It's just that Zaentz has a history of being lawsuit-happy.

From what the article says, Zaentz is in arbitration with New Line, and New Line is refusing to allow him to audit the books until he settles the arbitration claims. Zaentz is probably in the right to file a suit - New Line is on increasingly thin ground with regards to allowing an audit of the books, and using that as a stick to get Zaentz to settle isn't going to win them any friends on the court. Especially since New Line lost so spectacularly last year over some documents they were supposed to provide. Withholding an audit just makes it seem more clear they have something to hide. Judges don't like that strategy very well.

Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.
`Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.


NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows


mordor
Registered User

Feb 13 2008, 7:03pm

Post #150 of 342 (14103 views)
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DROP NEW LINE NOW!!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

MadNew Line deserves to not only be sued but should lose all rights to producing any further Tolkein stories related to LOTR. New Line has gone too far by biting the hand that feeds it bank accounts. If the news stories are true that they have not paid one penny in royalties to the creator's estate then they should burn. I would wait 20 years to see The Hobbit on the big screen! In a perfect world the Tolkein estate should give the options to a movie company that respects the genius of the writer and get Peter Jackson to produce, write, and direct one of the 20th century's greatest stories ever told. I've got my books and DVD collection to tide me over until then.

In Reply To
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080211/ap_en_mo/tolkien_lawsuit_1


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