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Big Daddy Balrog
The Shire
Jun 12 2014, 4:05am
Post #1 of 63
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Speculation: who would Elrond have assigned to the Fellowship?
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So as we all know, Elrond originally intended to send Merry and Pippin back to the Shire to warn their fellow countrymen about Sauron and Saruman. So who would he have assigned to the Fellowship instead?
Glorfindel's name came up in passing when Elrond and Gandalf debated the matter. Though Glorfindel would have made sense, seeing that he was already acquainted with Frodo and Sam at that point. Plus he seemed to be a formidable foe to the Nazgul.
My guess is Elrond's twin sons would have been the last 2 members of the Fellowship. They ended up joining the War anyway, so they might had designs to join the Fellowship, or at least go with Aragorn and Boromir to Gondor. Plus they would have fulfilled that Halfelven race requirement that was missing lol!
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 12 2014, 11:49am
Post #2 of 63
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The twins seem inseparable, but
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my suspicion is that it would be Glorfindel + one twin.
Not that there's anything special about having 9 people, so maybe it could have been both twins + Glofrindel.
Even though the conventional wisdom (Gandalf's) was that this shouldn't be a warrior-heavy party, they ran into plenty of situations where having more muscle would have helped.
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Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Jun 13 2014, 1:19am
Post #4 of 63
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What a great question! I've never
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seen this asked here before that I remember.
I'm not sure that Gandalf would have recommended Glorfindel necessarily, although I doubt if he had anything against his going. But I do think his counsel would have been to choose those who would not necessarily expect to always prevail in terms of strength, either by force of arms or the power of the elves. I'm not sure how much weight Elrond might have given to Gandalf's take on things if Merry and Pippin had not wanted to go--that is if there were not specific individuals Gandalf had in mind. I wouldn't be surporsed if the twins might have been chosen as a compromise if Gandalf thought Glorfindel might be overkill.
(I certainly would have wanted him along!)
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Escapist
Gondor
Jun 13 2014, 1:33am
Post #5 of 63
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I was trying to imagine how overkill
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could be bad in such an important quest as Frodo's.
I wonder if Glorfindels' presence would make it hard to be stealthy? I tend to guess that he could be stealthy if he wanted to be. But maybe there is some way that the enemy would just sense him - considering the vision Frodo got of him on the other side and the idea that this other world / spirit world / what have you is a place / level of awareness where their most fearsome enemies have a stronger presence or awareness? This is just a guess.
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Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Jun 13 2014, 3:07am
Post #6 of 63
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what I was thinking. Also, would he possibly be tempted to use his power at a point where it might be unwise?
It would have been interesting to see what Tolkien might have done with that. (But I'd have missed Merry and Pippen terribly!)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 13 2014, 5:22pm
Post #7 of 63
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IT might be fun to look at this question from "outside" the tale as well. The History of Middle Earth covers the way in which the Fellowship evolved in various drafts.
Initially, it comprises five hobbits, Gandalf and Boromir (at this early phase the character which becomes Aragorn is Trotter, an adventurous hobbit).
That effort, which reaches Balin's tomb in Moria, was then revised. This time Tolkien has the idea of having a Fellowship of 9, and that they should contain representatives of all the peoples allied against Sauron:
Frodo
Sam
Gandalf
Legolas
Erestor (who is listed as a half-elf)
Aragorn
Boromir
Gimli
Merry
Pippin
Wait - that's TEN!
Tolkien is uncertain about Pippin for a while, and contemplates sending him back to the Shire - the ghost of that idea is still in the text, with Elrond suggesting Pippin return to the Shire, but then relenting.
So Pippin gets a cap, and Erestor is benched.
The symbolism of the fellowship being nine strong, and of containing representatives of all the peoples appears to have been important - I can't think of any logical reason why a slightly bigger or smaller party wouldn't have been just as suitable.
Using reason alone, it not only seems artificial to need exactly 9 companions, but it also seems very odd to have someone as powerful as Glorfindel around and not ask him to go. Yes, he can't open a path to the Dark Tower etc..., but as others have said, he might be dead handy in a fight. I had thought that this business of needing a party of only 9 was a bit of subterfuge to keep Glorfindel out. But that wouldn't seem to be right - there wouldn't seem to be any evidence that Tolkien ever considered having him in.
In the published work, of course, each of the hobbits accomplishes something that wiser or stronger people can not (Frodo and Sam get within a finger of disposing of the Ring; Merry hamstrings the Witch King with the only anti-Nazgul weapon on the battlefield; and Pippin saves Gandalf from trying the Orthanc Palantir). So it turns out just as well that they all came. But I'm not sure how clearly Tolkien had that in mind when he set up the Fellowship.
~~~~~~
"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 13 2014, 5:34pm
Post #8 of 63
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the nine of the fellowship makes a nice counterpoint to the nine nazgul.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 13 2014, 6:43pm
Post #9 of 63
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when did those 9 face off against the other 9? I'm thinking practically, not symbolically: I would want more Glorfindel's to counter the Nazgul if they did face off, and fewer outgunned hobbits.
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ElendilTheShort
Gondor
Jun 13 2014, 6:54pm
Post #10 of 63
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the quests only hope was in secrecy, any encounters with Glorfindel by the enemies would have been a loud warning bell. The Nazgul would have seen him as per Frodos sight at the ford. Although somewhat less, JRRT wrote in letters that they can even tell Aragorn was a "power". Even orcs seemed to have sense about this sort of thing.
The other two simply would be two of his house as noted in the book, but possibly no Noldor due to the aforementioned nature of those that had dwelt in Valinor.
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ElendilTheShort
Gondor
Jun 13 2014, 6:58pm
Post #11 of 63
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Sam kiling Shelob and Pippin killing the Olog Hai at the black gates.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 13 2014, 7:20pm
Post #12 of 63
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if they could sense Aragorn, they could sense Gandalf too, and they'd fought him before and had his scent, so to speak.
Once the fellowship got to Moria, the Enemy was ready for them anyway, before that, actually, given the magic warg attack in Hollin, so their secrecy was very short-lived.
What if the Fellowship had been more numerous? Boromir might not have had to die.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jun 13 2014, 7:21pm
Post #13 of 63
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******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jun 13 2014, 7:23pm
Post #14 of 63
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Glorfindel would be one of the Elf Lords Sauron would immediately expect to wield the ring.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 13 2014, 7:42pm
Post #15 of 63
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what about maglor? is he doing anything nowadays? maybe he's up for a redemptive quest.
how about a wise and powerful female elf, for mandos' sake? tauriel is always spoiling for a fight.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Jun 13 2014, 8:36pm
Post #16 of 63
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when did those 9 face off against the other 9? I'm thinking practically, not symbolically: I would want more Glorfindel's to counter the Nazgul if they did face off, and fewer outgunned hobbits. “Practically” - never.
But one of the Nine Walkers faced ALL NINE Nazgul – Gandalf atop Amon Sul. (Pre-Fellowship of course).
And it appears (in a way) that Gandalf the Grey won this encounter as the nine Nazgul were split 4/5, and only 5 were at the chase at the Ford of Rivendell.
I’ve often wondered what would have happened at the face-off at the broken gate at Minas Tirith if Gandalf hadn’t been “called away” – as 60 years earlier he fought basically to a draw all nine Nazgul as Gandalf the Grey. Would he have any problem, as Gandalf the White, dispatching a single Nazgul be he the Witch King or not?
Thoughts?
Sorry to go a bit OT.
"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
-Albert Einstein
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 13 2014, 10:11pm
Post #18 of 63
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Glorfindel killed a balrog in a former life
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Maybe he + Gandalf in Moria would mean Gandalf wouldn't die, so he'd still be the Grey.
But as for Gandalf the White, I think he could overcome the Witch-King, even though the latter was augmented when closer to Mordor. Oh, well, that's something for the Arena, just my opinion for since it came up here.
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jun 13 2014, 10:21pm
Post #19 of 63
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Gandalf v. WK, that is, despite his modest assessment. He was, after all, headed that way when Pippin intercepted him.
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Meneldor
Valinor
Jun 13 2014, 11:19pm
Post #20 of 63
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would have made the journey pretty short, as the crow flies. 
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters; These see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep.
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 14 2014, 12:36am
Post #21 of 63
(1420 views)
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what about maedhros? he's just hanging around, doing nothing.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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squire
Half-elven
Jun 14 2014, 12:47am
Post #22 of 63
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As you say, it's clear that Tolkien had no idea what roles Merry and Pippin might serve in the War of the Ring, when he determined that they would accompany Frodo on the quest after Rivendell. I suppose the original motivation was simply the 'buddy principle'!
Along with the actions you and others have mentioned that show how wise Gandalf was to override Elrond and let them come along, we can also include:
Merry and Pippin provide the means for Boromir's moral redemption after his surrender to the Ring.
Merry and Pippin arouse Treebeard and the Ents to destroy Isengard.
Merry and Pippin's capture (not really their idea!) provide Aragorn with a competing mission, preventing him from following Frodo and delivering him to Rohan and Gondor where he is most needed.
Merry wounds the Witch-king not just with his Barrow-blade, but also with his hobbit nature: he too is "not a Man".
Pippin saves Faramir by summoning Beregond and then Gandalf to rescue the prince from Denethor's madness.
One of Tolkien's amazing qualities as an author was his ability to make the most of his early plot choices. As Christopher remarks, JRRT almost never abandoned an awkward idea, he simply reworked what he had written until the idea fit in.
This is my favorite quote on this matter:
It was not long before Gandalf himself came in search of them. He stooped over Merry and caressed his brow; then he lifted him carefully. ‘He should have been borne in honour into this city,’ he said. ‘He has well repaid my trust; for if Elrond had not yielded to me, neither of you would have set out; and then far more grievous would the evils of this day have been.’ - LotR V.8
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jun 14 2014, 12:48am
Post #23 of 63
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I figure her father's wisdom, intelligence, and diplomacy rubbed off on her a bit. For example, her presence at the Nimrodel probably would have gotten the Fellowship a much more friendly welcome to Lothlorien than in the event. They had more than enough big bad warriors. They also needed someone with astute diplomatic skills and a bit of political authority on this mission... quest...,thing...
(Not to mention they would have gotten to places in half the time as she would have insisted upon stopping and asking for directions.)
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Jun 14 2014, 12:56am)
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jun 14 2014, 1:03am
Post #24 of 63
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The Black Gate is closed. A beautiful elf steps up to one of the Troll guards.
"Excuse me, but this road seems rather cloggled with armies and such. Can you please recommend a safe alternate route with less traffic?"
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*brays laughter*
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