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New Line Cinema Sued by Tolkein Estate (over film profits...)
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Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Feb 12 2008, 11:05pm

Post #101 of 342 (14060 views)
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I am refraining to judge him [In reply to] Can't Post

Until I see what happens in this case. I am happy that he has published so much of his father's work posthumorously, but I would be sorely disappointed if he took the rights to film the Hobbit back and didn't plan on letting them go to anyone. But again, I'm withholding my judgement of the Estate for now; I personally hope it ends up with the filming rights of the Hobbit back in Zaentz' possession, with the estate's blessing (or, at least, not contempt).

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Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Feb 12 2008, 11:11pm

Post #102 of 342 (14112 views)
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That was an unnecessary and rather offensive comment. [In reply to] Can't Post

PJ's movies have been critiqued plenty of times here. But yes, many of us are fans. And yet you seem to elude that we forget that JRR Tolkien originally wrote the book and created the world that PJ interpreted.

And I, for one, do not appreciate such a patronizing attitude.

May I stick the "NARF" tag on myself now?

Edit: I'd like to add that I didn't read such an attitude from any of fryguy's posts, and agree with a few of his points.

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(This post was edited by Ainu Laire on Feb 12 2008, 11:12pm)


Elven
Valinor


Feb 12 2008, 11:17pm

Post #103 of 342 (14056 views)
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Its not Christopher .. [In reply to] Can't Post

Im not seeing that this is a way for Christopher to stop anything, but to uphold contractual obligations to recieive the monies that the charity are due, they have not been paid. And as Peter held out with his lawsuit and wouldn't touch the Hobbit until things were paid, so too, I see the Estate doing the same thing. They have lost countless $, and maybe now, through the book sales and percentages, they can take on someone like New Line vigourously - I would do the same.
... and Ive said there will be unforseen delays all along with the Hobbit - since 2003, and this is another one of them ... its not just Christopher Tolkien, its also Harpers, and they may win this, but I dont think this will stop the Hobbit from being made, it may delay it, but I just see this movie worming its way into the hands of people who will do the right thing. It might just be about integrity, and that involves being paid the dues which are owed to them rightfully.
I would be very angry too, if a company had made billions and refused to pay percentages owed for something they had borrowed, only to see them try and do this again ... especially with works such as the Hobbit or any other Tolkien works. And this is not there first approach. New Line have basially scoffed at them and told them to go away ... it is that New Line arrogance which has fuelled this ... NL has bitten the hands that fed them ...

I think there's still hope ... but the finances still need sorting out ... Smile

Cheers Elven


Amy Winehouse acquires Shire retreat for Summer ...


Amy Winehouse sells Shire retreat in Autumn ...


Tolkien was a Capricorn!
The Hobbit!!
Its a Happening Thing!!

Russell Crowe for Beorn

Sauruman: "Do know how the fan girls/boys first came into being? ... they were Tolkien scholars once ... Taken by the Dark Director, tempted to hold moots & dress up like Hobbits, Elves, Dwarves and Wizards ... A ruined & terrible form of life, not to mentions bad grades ... and now perfected at TORN ...
Whom do you serve!"


mwirkk
Rohan

Feb 12 2008, 11:20pm

Post #104 of 342 (14076 views)
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Although... [In reply to] Can't Post

On another branch of this topic, N.E. Brigand points out (2/12/08 19:58, post #93) a quote of CT from DarkStone (1/31/08 7:09, post #17, Main thread "How Disappointing!!!") reads:

{"'My own position is that 'The Lord Of The Rings' is peculiarly unsuitable to transformation into visual dramatic form. 'On the other hand, I recognize that this is a debatable and complex question of art, and the suggestions that have been made that I 'disapprove' of the films, whatever their cinematic quality, even to the extent of thinking ill of those with whom I may differ, are wholly without foundation."
-Christopher Tolkien
}

This was from a Dec.10, 2001 AP press report, and is available on many web-sites. Thx to Darkstone, and to N.E. Brigand, for bringing that into the dialog.

As with the context in which the quote was use previously, it shows that CT's view of the films is largely either misunderstood or misrepresented. Afterall, as head of the Trust, it is is prime directive to safe-guard the integrety of his father's legacy. Even if he were secretly an enthusiastic fan of the films, he must take an approach which is conservative to a fault. Otherwise, precidents might be set that would cause their position to eventually spiral out of control. It is not unlike the stance companies must take to protect their registered trademarks.

-mwirkk :)


Elven
Valinor


Feb 12 2008, 11:32pm

Post #105 of 342 (14061 views)
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I think the TE have been on the backburner .. [In reply to] Can't Post

But not out of the fray ...

They have tried to see whats going on before with NL and have been snubbed ... I think they are laying alot on the line for this, and look who the plantiffs are - the family of the charity, the family of Tolkien ... I think NL are up against the wall.

I dont think the timing is suspicious ... I think its perfect timing ...
(see posts above, above, above about the timing, NL, Warner, Shaye Lynne contracts, writers strike)

Cheers Elven


Amy Winehouse acquires Shire retreat for Summer ...


Amy Winehouse sells Shire retreat in Autumn ...


Tolkien was a Capricorn!
The Hobbit!!
Its a Happening Thing!!

Russell Crowe for Beorn

Sauruman: "Do know how the fan girls/boys first came into being? ... they were Tolkien scholars once ... Taken by the Dark Director, tempted to hold moots & dress up like Hobbits, Elves, Dwarves and Wizards ... A ruined & terrible form of life, not to mentions bad grades ... and now perfected at TORN ...
Whom do you serve!"


bettybalin
The Shire

Feb 12 2008, 11:47pm

Post #106 of 342 (14034 views)
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Timing [In reply to] Can't Post

Oh, I don’t deny that it is perfect timing, as far as perfect timing to get the maximum amount of money out of NL. It was well timed on their part, in that regard.

I just find it puzzling that that it’s been kept under wraps until now. If NL truly had breached contract that egregiously, that long ago, it would have come out before now, I’d think. Yes, pre-court proceedings and attempts at negotiations take quite some time, but this swooping in from the wings at the perfect second just seems odd.

The chance of NL/Bob Shaye/PJ resolving things enough to get to this point has been pretty low up until recently. So, I can’t see them holding off since 2000 on a complaint about lack of payment just for the absolute maximum impact eight years later.

It would be more believable coming out when Zaentz or PJ filed. “Hey, you didn’t get paid enough? Count yourself lucky! We didn’t get paid at all!” They didn’t have anything to lose (like a future relationship with NL, or that future payments might be halted or slowed), and everything to gain (since they supposedly hadn’t received a dime).

But then again, I’m the world’s biggest skeptic.


fryguy34167
The Shire

Feb 13 2008, 12:22am

Post #107 of 342 (14046 views)
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Disagree [In reply to] Can't Post

I really think you are way off the deep end here with your misguided statement that Tolkien went into the sale of his film rights willingly. He was under enormous pressure from the taxman back in the UK. No sale made under that kind of wilting pressure is one that can even remotely be termed as willing. I would also argue that these type of situations have occurred many times. Take a look at how many authors, artists, musicians, etc have been left penniless due to bad deals foisted upon them by large publisher's, record company execs or movie moguls. I will always side with the creators of art as opposed to the creators of nothing. As to not having the right to take back control of his works, that is incorrect. Eventually the estate most certainly will have artistic control restored to them. Read the link to copyright law that I posted earlier. As to whether or not they have the right in this case to take back the film rights, that will be decided in court. They obviously do have the right to try. Some have stated that if Tolkien and Harper Collins do prevail that the film rights will simply revert back to Zaentz. This is not a given either as Zaentz could also be found in breach of contract. The argument will likely go something like this.

Zaentz was under contractual obligation to ensure that Tolkien's charity received 7.5% of the gross. Zaentz assigns the rights (and obligations) to New Line. New LIne breaches its obligations and the Tolkien estate and charity are not paid their due. Zaentz therefore is also in breach as he failed to ensure that the Tolkien charity was paid and it was HIS obligation to make sure this happened. Tolkien estate regains the rights to the films. Zaentz is now free to sue New Line for his losses due to their breach of contract between Zaentz and New Line. This is just a possible scenerio, I am not saying with any certainty that it will turn out this way but if I were representing the estate and Harper Collins this would be how I would approach it.

As to why you haven't heard much about this dispute before, it is very likely that as stated, the Tolkien estate was trying to resolve this matter out of court and simply got fed up with New Line's refusal to pay up. In addition, I do agree with many on here who have suggested that New LIne, in its current weakened state is ripe for the picking. Your doubts that New Line would refuse to pay someone the money owed them is something I think you should also carefully re-examine. Zaentz had to sue New Line to get them to pay up. Jackson had to sue New Line to get them to pay up. Viggo Mortenson and the other cast members also had to take a stand against New Line due to New Line's poor treatment of the actors.


(This post was edited by Altaira on Feb 13 2008, 4:17am)


bettybalin
The Shire

Feb 13 2008, 12:45am

Post #108 of 342 (14044 views)
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Death and Taxes [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, everyone has to make hard decisions, especially when they are having money problems. But the problem wasn’t caused by the film right purchaser. Maybe Tolkien could have gotten a better deal later, or would have preferred not to sell at all, but he still made that decision under his own power. He even could have chosen something else to sell, and he didn’t.

I needed to pay a debt, so I sold some things that meant a lot to me. Should I complain to ebay when I realized those collectibles could be sold for a higher price if I had taken my time and did a private sale? No. Should I blame the purchaser from taking something that meant a lot from me, or at least preventing me from getting the best price possible? No. I’m an adult, and must live with the consequences of my actions. This is obviously a relatively minor example, but an example nonetheless. An author is not exempt from those decisions either. We are all human, and all have to make hard choices and live with them.

I’m not saying NL is innocent, far from it. Their track record does not speak well. It’s just not an unusual track record for the industry. The industry fudges the numbers all the time in their favor, but eight years of “the check is in the mail, I swear!” is not. The other parties sued because they felt that they weren’t paid enough. The Estate is saying that they weren’t paid at all. Quite a big difference.I’m just having a problem with the complete radio silence up until now regarding this issue.


(This post was edited by bettybalin on Feb 13 2008, 12:51am)


overlithe64
Rivendell

Feb 13 2008, 1:00am

Post #109 of 342 (14054 views)
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another view....I'm a bit put off by NL [In reply to] Can't Post

This may or may not be a popular view here...I'm a lurker not a poster usually...BUT

Personally I hope NL goes down in flames, they lose their option....Yeah it would mean a delay, but I thought for some time now that RINGs was a success despite them not because of them...yes yes they gave PJ the go-ahead to make the three films..I know..but that is the first and last thing they did and they only did it because they had a sudden epiphany with dollar signs.

With New Line out of the picture (hopefully) Saul will find someone else...what are the chances that NO ONE will want to make the pre-quil? Perhaps Pete will be available to direct....and we won't have to deal with the very fan unfriendly NL ever again...may they RIP.

I've had some not so nice interactions with them...though no cause to sue, though when the Tolkien Estate finishes with them there won't be anything left....Sorry if this is an unpopular view...I may be one of the only people who wants the hobbit made that was disappointed that NL actually got it together to "say" they were moving forward. How many people have to sue them for the same thing before someone realizes they are not reputable, at least not now, it makes me ill how much $$ I sent their way over the last 7 years....its sickening.


They are not worthy of our trust, and certainly not worthy of the material, in my opinion they never were.


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Feb 13 2008, 1:04am

Post #110 of 342 (14017 views)
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1973, actually. [In reply to] Can't Post

And while I certainly find that more people here like than dislike Peter Jackson's adaptations of The Lord of the Rings, dissent has always been a regular part of these forums.

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Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Feb 13 2008, 1:09am

Post #111 of 342 (14037 views)
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Sifting Through The Posts [In reply to] Can't Post

I think many opinions posted here have valid points & elements of the real story in them, except the one about getting offended by what someone else says - been there, done that & folks are just putting in their 2 cents, no reason to get mad after all........

BettyBalin raises some excellent points in her first post from a legal perspective that this is probably buisness as usual in Hollywood.

I think that regardless of his motives, Tolkien DID sell the rights for $10,00, a good sum in his day & 'tough darts' (as my aunt used to say). Who knew that prices would excelerate so astronomically? It's sorta like Willie Mays, the greatest living baseball player making $125,000 in 1965 while AROD earns $27,000,000 in 2008. Does this mean Willie should get a retroactive raise out of the Giants?
Only if his contract stated he should get 7.5% of what the highest paid player for each season until his death got..........

As for that Christopher Tolkien quote on not dislking movie adaptations, let us note the date: December 10, 2001. When did the Fellowship of the Ring come out? In the USA, December 19, 2001. I believe Dec. 17, 2001 in England, but I might be off several days. I believe it was shown around Dec. 10, 2001 in New Zealand, but was CT there? I would like to see a quote from him after TTT came out with all it's changes, & even moreso after the whole trilogy was released. That would hold alot more weight than a quote from December 10, 2001.
Personally, I know I was very high after TFOR but very down after the many changes in TTT. I wonder if CT might've felt the same. I felt pretty redeemed after ROTK, yet I'm not JRRT, the ultimate purist's son either.

Finally, I do agree that every movie adapted from a book has to have some changes. Even The Godfather, the ultimate novel turned to film does, like cutting out the death of the Godfather's best freind & 'consigliare', Genco at the beginning - after they actually filmed a very powerful scene sometimes shown in 'The Godfather Chronicles':

"Stay with me Godfather...If you do, even death will be afraid to come into the room." Cool


entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Feb 13 2008, 1:17am

Post #112 of 342 (14028 views)
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Welcome to the world of NARF [In reply to] Can't Post

Because, of course, we're too blinded to think clearly Wink

Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.
`Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.


NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows


Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Feb 13 2008, 1:31am

Post #113 of 342 (14026 views)
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Thinking Clearly? [In reply to] Can't Post

It just dawned on me, although somebody else has probably said it before - trying to remember 5 pages of posts while composing your own thoughts is not easy....

Anyhow, The Tolkien Estate is obviously owed the $150 Million & has chosen the most 'deadly' time to force New Line to cough up the money, that's all.

By suing now, either New line forks over the $$$ or the movie is stopped.
I bet stopping film production forever is not the Estate's goal, but just a leverage tool to get New Line to pay up.

The Hobbit will go on in production as planned - New Line will pay up because too much profits are at stake.


fryguy34167
The Shire

Feb 13 2008, 1:48am

Post #114 of 342 (14004 views)
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the numbers [In reply to] Can't Post

Actually they sued for 150 Million PLUS unspecified punitive damages as well as a termination of New Line's rights to make any further films based upon Tolkien's works if I remember correctly. The amount New Line could end up losing could end up being well in excess of $150 Million and they could and likely will end up losing the rights to the Hobbit. I do not think production will go on as planned. The estate will ask for and likely get a stay placed upon the Hobbit production until this matter is settled in court.

Unless New Line finds a way to satisfy the Tolkien estate as well as Harper Collins (which I very much doubt they can) this case could easily be dragged out for a couple of years, i.e. no Hobbit from New Line. The Hobbit may in fact get made into a movie, but New Line will have no involvement in the project. Remember they are under a serious time crunch here and if production does not begin soon, they lose the right to make the films regardless of the current litigation.


Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Feb 13 2008, 3:33am

Post #115 of 342 (13983 views)
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Might Be [In reply to] Can't Post

like I said, stopping production is just a 'big push' to get the money out of New Line NOW, i.e., the ultimate bargaining chip & The Estate has no desire to stop the movie from being made.

However, the other school of thought is that Christopher Tolkien isn't happy with PJ's many changes in TLOR's......

Speculation is simply that & only the next few weeks or months will clear things up.

Whatever. To me, there's always more to be discovered in the true essence of Middle-Earth, the works of JRR Tolkien, including the many papers his son Christopher has released. For example, I was just reading ''Myths Transformed' in 'Morgoths Ring' HoME Volume 10, which has a wealth of deep essays on Morgoth & Sauron & their power & how they used it - deep stuff worthy of multiple readings.......

There's nothing wrong with checking out & indeed enjoying the movies though, but they aren't 'canon' either, just fun.
I myself saw ROTK 10 times in the theatres & watched the EE's this past month (I only watch the EE's as I consider them vastly superior & complete stories). Heck, I've even watched the movies with the entire commentaries of both PJ & Copmany & also 'The Hobbits' talking........


overlithe64
Rivendell

Feb 13 2008, 4:08am

Post #116 of 342 (13950 views)
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Purist? [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, I have to preface this by saying I am far far ok really far from being a purist...I am the rewrite queen. And I most certainly would never pretend to be a Tolkien expert is the company I keep here.... But, I didn't realize JRR was a purist? A mean he was exacting in his detail...but I didn't think he was ever satisfied with his work... a true perfectionist....I'm not saying he would or would not have liked all the changes, but I bet he'd have liked some of them just like the rest of us.

But that is neither here not there at this late date....But NL just burns me up....I think the estate has every right to receive their agreed upon percentage of the profits. IF they'd just come clean they'd look a lot better....they'd be much poorer...but at least they'd be honest.


Altaira
Superuser


Feb 13 2008, 4:26am

Post #117 of 342 (13987 views)
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Nice to see you 'de-lurk,' overlithe [In reply to] Can't Post

And nice to see so many new faces in general. Smile

I wouldn't say your view is unpopular at all. I think we're all frustrated with New Line to some degree or another, or have been in the past. Thanks for your perspective and hope to see you around more. Smile


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Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Feb 13 2008, 5:07am

Post #118 of 342 (13958 views)
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Tolkien The Purist [In reply to] Can't Post

I would call JRR Tolkien a 'purist' because I was just re-reading his 'Letters' & he is just very exacting in ripping everyone who says anything that is one bit off of what he wrote or is wrong in talking about his life. In one case, an American edition of The Hobbit comes out with a picture of a lion, an emu & tall grass.....

I'm thinking, 'What's that?', but Tolkien writes a letter bashing the picture. Such letters were quite common from Tolkien, so that's why I call him a 'purist'. What Tolkien wrote & said & who he was, was the way it was, period.
What he would think about the PJ movies, based on the way he tore apart the cartoon movie that was going to be made in the late 50's (Letter #210), or the way people tend to 'reinterpret' his works to fit their own opinions, like his statement, in his own words, that TLOR was 'esentially a Christian & Catholic work', (in the words of The Hobbit), "I daren't think".


AinurOlorin
Half-elven

Feb 13 2008, 5:32am

Post #119 of 342 (13969 views)
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T. Foreve, it is your obligation to post some of these lettters, or at least provide [In reply to] Can't Post

a link. And while I noted many flaws in the films, the Balrog breaking stones wasn't one. We have gone over this, and can take it up later. Funny though, the changes I hated most were in Fellowship, not TTT. Well, Fellowship and that crap in extended ROTK. In TTT. . . my largest complaint was probably Gandalf's much amputated beard. Well. . . I could have done without Haldir being killed, but. . .

Whoever said the first Harry Potter film was the worst. . . I disagree. I think it catered more to a child audience, but so did the book. It was still a good film, relatively speaking.

As to the films. . . I will be very Angry if Christopher Tolkien and co. cause these films to be held up by so much as a fortnight!!! That said, I do still appreiciate Christopher's contributions, and love Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales, along with other addenda texts. Yet my fury will not be lessened if he RUINS my Hobbit hopes. I would rather have had no news than have my 2010 hopes dashed before my eyes.

Yet, I doubt that will happen. The Hobbit is to big for TW to allow to slip away, whatever happens with New Line. IF push comes to shove, Big Brothers T and Warner will cough up the money, before they allow the film to be greatly delayed or snatched away from them. That, at least, is both my belief and my hope.

As to creativity. . . LOTR stood more risk of artistic deviation than does The Hobbit. Hobbit, the first film at least, would not require nearly as many omissions for times sake, and hopefully would not be too greatly morphed.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Feb 13 2008, 5:48am

Post #120 of 342 (13945 views)
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A Link? [In reply to] Can't Post

AinurOlorin, we need to talk about Balrogs or Dragons instead of links to Letters because when it comes to computers, I am the Missing Link - such things are beyond my skill, I am a computer moron (I'm 46 & don't work in computers).

If I post a 'quote', it's hand typed........

And, I wouldn't have a clue where to find a link to Tolkien's Letters to even post an 'http' type link that can be 'cut & pasted' - sorry.
I put the Letter #210 up here so hopefully folks could look it up as it's rather funny.

Back to Dragons. I've been thinking about the Origin of Dragons - gotta start a new thread. Unsure

Sorry folks, don't mean to hijack this one......


Peredhil lover
Valinor

Feb 13 2008, 6:09am

Post #121 of 342 (13927 views)
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Completely agree [In reply to] Can't Post

That's why I don't understand why the changes to the movies were thrown in into the discussion at all! PJ and NL weren't exactly 'best friends forever' over the last time, IIRC Wink

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


Sunflower
Valinor

Feb 13 2008, 6:17am

Post #122 of 342 (13957 views)
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Thanks. [In reply to] Can't Post

That was basically what I was trying to say yesterday, in my own blather-y way. HONESTY is the key word here. I am so angry precisely b/c I respect CT so much, I find it hard to believe that he of all people would resort to such underhanded tactics, as you say.
If he wins the suit, then the Estate won't have to to worry about the "art for cash" dilemma, that led to his father selling of the rights in the first place.; They'll be set for a good long time, and suffer no pangs of guilt at stopping the films from being made.


Sunflower
Valinor

Feb 13 2008, 6:22am

Post #123 of 342 (13968 views)
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I've apologized.... [In reply to] Can't Post

elsewhere in this thread already, if you want to look. Sorry if I offended anyone.

But as I've also said elsewhere, and as Peredhil says, it seems that everyone in this whole sad affair has not played an honest hand. Even, now, the ones I thought were upfront. It's so sad to see everyone tarnished by all this. (NL is tarnished already.)


MrCere
Sr. Staff


Feb 13 2008, 6:26am

Post #124 of 342 (14028 views)
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I have it on pretty good authority . . . [In reply to] Can't Post

That he has never seen the films and really doesn't care to. This was confirmed to me by two different and distinct experts. He was rather annoyed by the helicopters flying around his house when they were filming however.

Entmaiden is right about him expressing NO public view and demonstrating NO venom towards the film. (And no support either).

The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie


Peredhil lover
Valinor

Feb 13 2008, 6:38am

Post #125 of 342 (13940 views)
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Zaentz [In reply to] Can't Post

Where did you get the statement that Zaentz has contractual obligation to make sure NL pays the Tolkien Estate? Sorry, but that seems rather unbelievable to me. He has no influence whatsoever over NL and had to sue them himself to get his own money - I doubt he's obliged to sue them on behalf of the Tolkien Estate as well. They can take care of their financial matters for themselves.

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.

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