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Mikah
Lorien
Jun 10 2014, 3:22am
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Children of Hurin Discussion-The Fall of Nargothrond.
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Good Afternoon peeps! So far Turin has had quite a journey. For the past five years he has been abiding in Nargothrond and is a very powerful advisor to the King. He commands the forces of this realm and is held in high esteem. It was upon this time that two elves, Gelmir and Arminas, come to Nargothrond with counsel from Ulmo. It seems as though Ulmo had appeared to Cirdan warning him of impending threat which will soon be upon Nargothrond. The advice from Ulmo is to cast down the bridge which had been built and shut the fortress against the enemy. King Orodreth is offended by this, primarily because he told that it will be the realm of Turgon which stands longest against Morgoth. He turns for guidance from Turin, who is rather resentful of the advice of the two elves. Both King Orodreth and Turin are combative with the elves, Turin treating Gelmir and Arminas with disdain.
This passage poses a great many questions for me. It is interesting to me that Orodreth’s personality at this time is in contrast to his brother Finrod. I detect a certain amount of pride and arrogance here that is absent from the attitude of Finrod. Is his pride exacerbated by the presence of Turin, or is it simply part of his temperament? Would Orodreth have heeded the advice of Ulmo had Turin not been present? What was it about Turin that caused Orodreth to hold Turin in such high regard and would Turin have risen to such power in Nargothrond had Finrod been still alive? Finally, the most obvious question, why on earth would Orodreth reject the counsel of Ulmo in favor of the counsel of a very flawed mortal? Perhaps it is simply what Orodreth wanted to hear. Oftentimes when a person asks for advice, it is not counsel they seek so much as validation. Is this the case here or is there something else going on?
Nargothrond is indeed invaded and with the advice of Ulmo rejected, the battle ends the only way it can; with the destruction of Nargothrond. Many elves are killed and many captured. One of those taken captive is Finduilas, daughter of King Orodreth. Among the many slain is King Orodreth and Gwindor. Upon Gwindor’s death he tells Turin to go back to Nargothrond and save Finduilas. “She alone stands between you and your doom. If you fail her, it shall not fail to find you.” I have often wondered if this is prophecy on the part of Gwindor or is it a curse of some sort?
Upon Turin’s return to Nargothrond he is waylaid by the dragon Glaurung. Turin is held strong in the spell of the mighty dragon. The dragon speaks to Turin dreadful words. “Thankless fosterling, outlaw, slayer of your friend, thief of love, usurper of Nargothrond, captain foolhardy, and deserter of your kin. As thralls your mother and your sister live in Dorlomin, in misery and in want. You are arrayed as prince, but they go in rags (CoH 179).” Despicable words coming from the dragon to be certain. However, is there any truth at all to them? The dragon counsels Turin to seek out Morwen and Nienor, telling Turin that if he stays for Finduilas he shall never see his kin again. Turin heeds the dragon’s words and goes to seek his mother and sister. Why do you believe that Glaurung was so insistent that Turin not look for Finduilas? How would Turin’s fate have been any different had he chosen to rescue Finduilas rather than look for his family? How could Finduilas have saved Turin from his doom, as Gwindor predicted?
So we come to the end of the fall of Nargothrond, one of the last of the strongholds to stand against Morgoth. Who really was responsible for the destruction of this realm? Was it Turin, Orodreth, or the curse? Was it simply the fate of Nargothrond at this time and do we have the Doom of the Noldor, cursed by Mandos also at play? Is there any possibility that the realm would have stood longer under the leadership of Finrod?
Thank you very much for your participation and all thoughts are appreciated! Feel free to address as few...or many questions as you feel led to. I look forward to hearing from all of you.
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sador
Half-elven
Jun 10 2014, 7:03am
Post #2 of 24
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We should have discussed Turin in Nargothrond first.
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Mikah
Lorien
Jun 10 2014, 1:15pm
Post #3 of 24
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I am under the impression that I was to lead the Fall of Nargothrond on 06/08. Unfortunately, I was a day late on this.. My apologies for that. Perhaps things were updated and I am simply not aware? I do try to keep up, but I have been known to miss a post or two.
6/8: 'The Fall of Nargothrond' : Mikah
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 10 2014, 11:59pm
Post #4 of 24
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6/1: 'The Death of Beleg', and 'Turin in Nargothrond' : Maciliel
Mac, could you cover Turin, Finduilas, etc?
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 11 2014, 12:29am
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yes.... sorry for the mix-up guys... will post a little later this evening
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(sincere apologies!)
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Mikah
Lorien
Jun 11 2014, 1:37am
Post #6 of 24
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Mikah blushes in embarrassment...
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You have no need to apologize Maciliel. I really should have paid more attention. I am the one who owes an apology. Sorry about that peeps, I did not mean to step on any toes!
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Terazed
Bree
Jun 11 2014, 4:28am
Post #7 of 24
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Tolkien on the couch: Turin and Finduilas
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Why is it that Gwindor is so insistent that Turin's only escape from his fate lies in Finduilas and why does Glaurung take such pains to make sure that it not happen? I think that answer lies in psychology. I think that the true curse of the Children of Hurin is that his children and especially Turin fail to mature into adults despite there ages. I also think that if Turin and Finduilas had been united the curse would have been lifted. Turin would have grown up.
This needs a little explanation. The concept I am going to raise was known in the 19th century under the concept of the eternal feminine from Goethe's Faust. In the 20th century Yung would turn it into the archetypes of the animus and anima which are masculine and feminine terms for the soul respectively. In the theory a male is born with mostly animus characteristics but with rudimentary anima in his subconscious and a female is the opposite. To reach maturity a man must develop and mature the anima in his character and a woman must develop and mature the animus. Some terms used to describe the animus (masculine) include directed, focused, logical, action oriented, meaning. Some terms to describe the anima (feminine) include diffuse, vague, intuitive, receptive, wisdom.
There are many stories and tales in the literature in which this psychological maturation is shown by the marriage or joining of two archetypal characters (or symbols such as the grail and spear). I think Tolkien uses the archetypal male(animus) and female (anima) characters many times in his stories. In the case of COH Turin is the archetype of the immature male dominated by animus but with a touch of rudimentary anima (pity). Finduilas is the archetype for the immature female dominated by anima. Actually I think that Finduilas is more of a representation of the mature anima that Turin needs to develop rather then a fully developed character in her own right.
I talked in earlier chapters about how monsters such as dragons psychologically are father figures that must be be conquered for a child to reach maturity. Glaurung fulfills this role admirably. He confronts Turin like a father upbraiding his son for all his failures and makes Turin feel insignificant and unsure of himself like a small boy. Likewise when he confronts Nienor he makes her regress to an infant state. Glaurung's goal in redirecting Turin away from Finduilas and towards Nienor is to prevent him from maturing by developing a mature anima (Finduilas) and keep him a boy with an immature anima (Nienor).
Without a mature anima Turin is fatally handicapped in his final confrontation with Glaurung (his father) and is mortally wounded in his battle to establish himself as a mature adult (break the curse). If he had gone to Finduilas instead of Nienor and married her instead he would have had the maturity to conquer Glaurung without fatal consequences to himself. The curse would have been lifted and a mature Turin with a balance of anima and animus would likely have gone on to reverse the fortunes of Beleriand. Of course if you want to go one level higher that would have completely messed up the music of the Ainur so he had to fail and the curse could not be broken.
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 11 2014, 4:48am
Post #8 of 24
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terazed, you presaged me!
i'm breaking this chapter examination into multiple "lead posts." one of the things i was (am) going to proffer is an examination of prophecy by the different characters in the chapter (gwindor's, as you mention, fiduilas's forebodings, etc.).
--- +carp+ --- i posted this in the wrong place.... terazed, i thought you were posting in our next chapter thread, "turin iin nargothrond." i'm active on that thread at the moment, as we haven't gotten to the fall of nargothrond yet.
again, i'm piqued (as in "interested") by your viewing these happenings through a jungian lens. i don't necessarily agree with all of your perspective or conclusions, but do find them absolutely insightful and intriguing.
the idea that turin is immature is hard to argue. i don't know if tolkien intended for him to come across that way. i rather think this was unintended, because of all the workup tolkien gives us re turin's elven qualities (beauty, able to be mistaken for a member of one of the high houses of the caliquendi -- that's saying something!).
i find turin immature because in my assessment he is self-indulgent and gives into his moods and angst too easily. tolkien makes many references to his admirable capacity for pity, but this is an example, i fear, where tolkien is telling, and not showing. i don't see a lot of examples of pity by turin; it's not a quality i associate with turin.
in the sil i find finduilas practically a vapor. here she's got much more personality, and (as tolkien writes dialog), there's a mountain of talk between her and gwindor.
i +love+ your references to recherche 19th-century intellectual thinking. fascinating! : ) more, please! : )
re glaurung.... he does taunt turin with his failings admirably.... i wonder if i can counter... .sometimes a dragon is just a dragon? ; )
if i were to borrow your premise.... turin pairing with nienor seems the perfect immature animus pairing with the perfect immature anima -- so why did everything go wrong? ; )
the tale of turin reeks of the same germanic sagas from which wagner drew (as you've also mentioned, i believe). i tend to see tolkien's composition through that lens.
more on prophecy in another "lead post." : )
cheers : )
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
(This post was edited by Maciliel on Jun 11 2014, 4:51am)
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sador
Half-elven
Jun 11 2014, 3:05pm
Post #9 of 24
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Such mix-ups can happen, and I should have called attention to it discreetly, via PM. I noticed it when in a hurry, so I didn't take the time for it, and caused unnecessary embarrassment. Sorry.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 12 2014, 12:35am
Post #10 of 24
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Please don't feel bad at all, Mikah
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We can handle both chapters this week, and they're intimately connected anyway. I didn't notice either--thanks to Sador for speaking up!
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 12 2014, 12:48am
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Pity for Turin the Full-o'-Pity
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tolkien makes many references to his admirable capacity for pity, but this is an example, i fear, where tolkien is telling, and not showing. i don't see a lot of examples of pity by turin; it's not a quality i associate with turin. I'm with you on this one, Mac. (Reading-Room-quake when we agree.  ) I can only think of 3 times when Turin shows pity: toward Sador, toward Mim, and toward the farmer's daughter. But 3 acts of pity does not make for a personality trait. He spent *plenty* of time as a heartless outlaw, and he showed zero pity toward Saeros. From a slightly different perspective, he had no pity for Thingol and Melian when they reached out to him and tried to make amends. Pity, especially in Tolkien's use of it, is not just feeling sorry for injured birds in your path, but having compassion and empathy for others. Turin is too self-absorbed for the latter, but he's good with injured birds. And it could be worse, he could stomp on injured birds instead of pitying them, but it could be better too. Beleg and Gwindor--now they are paragons of pity.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 12 2014, 12:51am
Post #12 of 24
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Always appreciate your insights, Tera!
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I talked in earlier chapters about how monsters such as dragons psychologically are father figures that must be be conquered for a child to reach maturity. Glaurung fulfills this role admirably. He confronts Turin like a father upbraiding his son for all his failures and makes Turin feel insignificant and unsure of himself like a small boy. Likewise when he confronts Nienor he makes her regress to an infant state. Glaurung's goal in redirecting Turin away from Finduilas and towards Nienor is to prevent him from maturing by developing a mature anima (Finduilas) and keep him a boy with an immature anima (Nienor).
Without a mature anima Turin is fatally handicapped in his final confrontation with Glaurung (his father) and is mortally wounded in his battle to establish himself as a mature adult (break the curse). If he had gone to Finduilas instead of Nienor and married her instead he would have had the maturity to conquer Glaurung without fatal consequences to himself. The curse would have been lifted and a mature Turin with a balance of anima and animus would likely have gone on to reverse the fortunes of Beleriand. Of course if you want to go one level higher that would have completely messed up the music of the Ainur so he had to fail and the curse could not be broken. That's a powerful statement and conclusion. I'm never sure how consciously Freudian/Jungian Tolkien intended to be, but unconsciously, it seems like he stole some pages from their textbooks.
It's never been clear to me why Finduilas can come between Turin and his curse. You make a good argument that it wasn't necessarily about falling in love and living happily ever after, but more about him growing up in the process and overcoming his childish tendencies, which repeatedly led to destruction. In his own way, Turin was a weapon of mass destruction, and someone should have banned him.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 12 2014, 1:08am
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Great analysis, Mikah, and thanks!
Finrod's survival is a big what if for me also. He was the original recipient of the message from Ulmo to found a hidden kingdom, and unlike Turgon, he lived far closer to the sea. Turgon could balk that a march across hostile territory to the dubious mouth of Sirion was too dangerous, plus he had an Eagle air force protecting him, and he was High King of the Noldor--oh, that list just went on. Finrod, more humble and from the more humble family of Finarfin, was more given to introspection and answering to a higher power (hence fulfilling his oath to Barahir, which he knew would go badly). Would he have listened to Ulmo? It's tempting to think so?
Would he have listened to Ulmo's messengers if Turin had showed up? Then I'm not so sure. Finrod and Orodreth were under the Curse of Mandos, and Turin dragged another curse through the door like some dang cat with a corpse from the yard, so put two curses together, and the sparks are doomed to fly.
And if I can interrupt this Narn for a moment, isn't it odd that Ulmo didn't warn Cirdan--of all people!--to evacuate the Falas cities before they were besieged? Hmm...
Back to the Narn: I find Gwindor pretty faultless and generous in this tale, so while it seems like he might have cursed Turin, I think he was prophesying with the eyes of death, as Tolkien characters often do. I'm not clear exactly what he had in mind with Finduilas' rescue (unless it was pure selfishness on his part, and he just wanted her saved, and he didn't think that had anything to do with Turin's curse), and I don't see how she could have repaired the existential miasma surrounding Turin, but I like Terazed's explanation.
Glaurung--look what else the cat dragged in! What is disturbing to me about him is that he mixes in just enough truth with his venomous words that they sink in pretty good. Did Tolkien have a mean streak to write this so convincingly, or was he just extra observant when people were mean to him? It strikes me like this: say a year ago you let down a friend somehow, and then because of other life events, they spiraled down into depression, possibly into suicide. You bear this guilt over that, and up pops up a dragon in your face, calling you "Destroyer of Friendships, Instigator of Suicide," and you've got a sore spot from your past guilt that gets blown out of proportion. It's not the same as the dragon calling you a coward, or stupid, or covered with warts. It's when someone finds a crack in your armor and wedges a knife in that you really get wounded. Glaurung is a real pro at this in a creepy way. (It's like complimenting Dexter for being an effective serial killer.)
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Mikah
Lorien
Jun 12 2014, 1:54am
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Terazed...this is most brilliant...
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Nothing like this ever crept into my mind any of the times that I have read this chapter. A most profound explanation and understanding of human behavior. Amazing.
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Terazed
Bree
Jun 12 2014, 4:38am
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n the sil i find finduilas practically a vapor. here she's got much more personality, and (as tolkien writes dialog), there's a mountain of talk between her and gwindor.
I will just make a quick comment tonight. When I talked about Finduilas as possibly being more of a representation of the anima then a fully developed character there was a particular reason which I have not brought up yet. There is another aspect to the developing of the anima in a male that has been discussed for milennia. The anima, according to the theory, is the source of artistry. Therefore for a poet or artist the anima is commonly represented as his muse. Examples of this are too many to count. Although it has been several years since I read it I remember Tolkien presenting an idealized representation of his own marriage along those line. That brings up a question that I will not get into tonight. Did Tolkien create Turin as a representation of himself when he looked at his own flaws?
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 12 2014, 11:52am
Post #16 of 24
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Does Tolkien = Beren, or Turin?
I wish I wasn't on a bus to work today, or I'd spend a few hours on that one!
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 12 2014, 12:45pm
Post #17 of 24
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i have always thought tolkien = aldarion and edith = erendis.
beren / luthien are the deep love, the first love, the struggles to be together, and the idealised love.
aldarion / erendis are the struggles to maintain a course together, diverging needs, conflicts that inevitably arise over the span of a marriage.
cheers --
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Jun 13 2014, 2:53am
Post #18 of 24
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There is pity akin to love,
There is pity akin to pride.
If anyone recalls the Athrabeth discussion, we discussed the difference.
Akin to love, we might call compassion and empathy; kinship recognised. This was showed when Turin saw himself, or his own hurts in others, and sought to prevent them in others. Mim lost his family, the farmer's daughter lost her way, and Sador lost his strength and glory.
Akin to pride, we might call sympathy; difference in position and stature-- I'm so lucky that I am not him/her. I see this in the way he treated Thingol and Melian, and others. He wanted to be different from them and Saeros, so he contrarily.
PS. We had a discussion on the original meaning of 'outlaw'. It didn't necessitate crimes like robbery or killing, just that one was placed in a state unprotected by the law, thus open to all sorts of impudent attacks.
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Jun 13 2014, 2:57am
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He'd slap everyone with a big fish until they saw sense!!
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Finrod-fish slapper
Remember this?
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Mikah
Lorien
Jun 13 2014, 3:12am
Post #20 of 24
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Of course! I remember you guys had me laughing myself silly!
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 13 2014, 11:31am
Post #21 of 24
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What if Turin was JRR before Edith?
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Idle speculation on my part. I agree with you (dang, twice in one week! I'm going soft) that Aldarion/Erendis seems like it was written from an insider's perspective; i.e., Tolkien was voicing some disillusionment on marriage after the blissful Beren & Lu initial stage, which is par for the course.
What if Turin was Tolkien before he officially hitched up Edith?
I don't think all writing is autobiographical, and Turin could be easily based on some hot-headed bloke(s) that JRR knew. But his tale was 1st written when Tolkien himself was in that phase of life.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 13 2014, 11:37am
Post #22 of 24
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Spare the fish-slap and spoil the child
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What Turin needed was some good old-fashioned spanking and to be sent to bed without dinner. Lack of discipline breeds anarchy in those young-uns, I tells ya! And while we're at it, anyone else notice he never went to school? He was a truant, and kids wandering the streets always turn out bad. Bah!
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Mikah
Lorien
Jun 13 2014, 10:44pm
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CG...maybe Turin was home schooled???
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Just a thought!
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sador
Half-elven
Jun 19 2014, 8:41am
Post #24 of 24
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RL got in the way... pretty much as expected, but this has become the standard excuse for me recently.
So without further ado, I'll make a few comments.
Finally, the most obvious question, why on earth would Orodreth reject the counsel of Ulmo in favor of the counsel of a very flawed mortal? Perhaps it is simply what Orodreth wanted to hear.
I love this suggestion!
In the early Lay of the Children of Hurin, Orodreth was portrayed as a proud and grim leader, who scolds Flinding (Gwindor) and is about to arrest Turin until Finduilas interferes, and softens his heart. The Lay was abandoned before the rise of Turin to prominence in Nargothrond, and it is difficult to imagine how that would come about; but Christopher Tolkien commented there about the reduction of Orodreth's role and stature in the subsequent versions.
On the other hand, if you look in the tale of Beren and Luthien - it appears that even if Orodreth did not have his brother's personal clout, Finrod himself was overshadowed by the resident Celegorm and Curufin, but after the news of his death had arrived Orodreth found his feet and actually expelled the sons of Feanor.
So I am actually very glad of your view of Orodreth, which makes him so much more than the lightweight wimp, as many have perceived_him.
It is also possible that part of his rejection of the policy of secrecy was because it was inspired by Curufin's speech. Having Ulmo say the same as Curufin? Troubling indeed, but his knee-jerk reaction would be to reject such counsel.
I have often wondered if this is prophecy on the part of Gwindor or is it a curse of some sort?
It seems to be a prophecy.
And it also comes of knowledge: it is Gwindor who said that the curse is in Turin's personality rather than his name. And if Turin would turn aside from his tendency to run away from the last place in which his curse found him to some new shelter (Dor-lomin, Brethil), but rather assume responsibility for the result of his actions - this might be a way to avoid his doom.
Why do you believe that Glaurung was so insistent that Turin not look for Finduilas?
If nothing else, for the sheer fun.
So we come to the end of the fall of Nargothrond, one of the last of the strongholds to stand against Morgoth... Is there any possibility that the realm would have stood longer under the leadership of Finrod?
Highly unlikely. Considering how he blithely went to seek a Silmaril, just because of his oath to Barahir (which surely did not extend to such missions)... he was a Noldo like all the rest, only nicer. Like the others, he was doomed from the beginning.
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Yes, Maciliel was up for
[