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Annael
Immortal
Feb 12 2008, 4:10pm
Post #76 of 342
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.We do not see things as they are, we see them as we are.
- Anais Nin
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
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Peredhil lover
Valinor
Feb 12 2008, 4:15pm
Post #77 of 342
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What have changes PJ made to the movies to do with New Line's bad habit of not paying people the share of profit they're entitled to? If we don't get any Hobbit film, then you can thank NL and not Peter. Remember, the lawsuit is not about changing the story, but about money New Line owns the Tolkien Estate!
I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.
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fryguy34167
The Shire
Feb 12 2008, 4:29pm
Post #78 of 342
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Well actually it may be about some of the changes PJ made to the story. Christopher Tolkien has religiously guarded his father's creations and the lack of creative control over his father's stories being adapted to film may in fact play much more of a role in this suit than the money. I highly doubt the Tolkien family is hurting for cash as they have the best selling books of the 20th century providing them with royalties. They don't really need the money from the films.
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Peredhil lover
Valinor
Feb 12 2008, 4:37pm
Post #79 of 342
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In this case they'd not need to sue about so much money. I can understand that they don't want NL to make even more money after not paying them for so long - that's reason enough. The amount NL owns them is nothing to sneeze at.
And even CT should be aware that you can't put a book into a movie 1:1. So the part with the rights may be a side effect, but I can't believe it to be the main reason.
I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.
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Peredhil lover
Valinor
Feb 12 2008, 4:42pm
Post #80 of 342
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If the only purpose was to get the rights back, why would CT have waited for years? The LotR movies have been out for years, after all. He could have done it much earlier.
I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.
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Tolkien Forever
Gondor
Feb 12 2008, 4:45pm
Post #81 of 342
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Did you read all the posts before mine?
I did & must agree that the timing of the lawsuit with the end of the screenwriter's strike & New Line's precarious finacial position, where a delay could sink the project, et all sure seems to cast an intersting light on whether this is about simple money or protecting the 'artistic integrity' of Tolkien's work, which both JRRT & CT have been so well documented & vocal about.
The fact also remains:
The Tolkien Estate supposedly is entitled to 7.5% of $600 Billion, right?
That's $450 million.
So, why are they suing for $150 million?
Makes no sense........
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Peredhil lover
Valinor
Feb 12 2008, 4:51pm
Post #82 of 342
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When you were right, then the whole lawsuit would be in my opinion a big deception and my opinion of CT would sink considerably.
I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.
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fryguy34167
The Shire
Feb 12 2008, 4:54pm
Post #83 of 342
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I still believe his motives were about getting back artistic control more than money. As to why he waited, he needed an opportunity. New Line committing breach gave him the opportunity he wanted and he took it. Again, this is simply speculation. I do wish to reiterate that CT has done more than any other author's son or daughter to deliver new content for fans of a deceased author's works. We should be supporting him rather than getting down on him. He and his family should have control over his father's work. Were it not for his father we would not have this wonderful tale that means so much to all of us. I am a bit disgusted by the negativity I have seen directed towards him (CT) on this board.
(This post was edited by fryguy34167 on Feb 12 2008, 5:03pm)
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Peredhil lover
Valinor
Feb 12 2008, 5:00pm
Post #84 of 342
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To sue New Line to keep PJ or someone other from making another movie - no, that wouldn't be my way. And he may have done a lot for the fans, but not everyone is much into Silmarillion and Children of Hurin, while the Hobbit is much more loved. Now he's going to disappoint millions of fans. That evens the score more than enough.
Okay, we'll have to agree to disagree - I don't want to get into an argument about that. Everyone is entitled to his or her own opinions.
I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.
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fryguy34167
The Shire
Feb 12 2008, 5:09pm
Post #85 of 342
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I am fine with our disagreeing about the effect of the outcome of the legal action and its worth. One thing I must say though is that Tolkien's family deserves our understanding if not our support. I know you have been a big fan of the films and I feel your pain as to the delay of getting more of what you want. I just do not feel that you are justified in taking out your disappointment solely on Christopher Tolkien.
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Voorhas
Lorien
Feb 12 2008, 5:21pm
Post #86 of 342
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...I know that Zaentz used to operate under the name "Tolkien Enterprises," so I'm assuming the rights are held by a corporation.
"They who dream by day are cognizant of many things which escape those who dream only by night." -- E.A. Poe
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Tolkien Forever
Gondor
Feb 12 2008, 5:53pm
Post #87 of 342
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Fryguy:
Be warned that you are on dangerous ground around here if you say anything bad about Peter Jackson or his movies.....
It almost seems at times that PJ is put on as high a pedistal as JRR Tolkien himself.
Tolkien spent 55 years of his life creating Middle-Earth; Christopher Tolkien made the maps for his father & spent 30 years collecting & editing the mess of papers his father left upon his death in 1972.
Now, let us keep in perspective that Peter Jackson made one very long movie cut into 3 parts that was based on someone else's finished work, however much you like it.
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fryguy34167
The Shire
Feb 12 2008, 6:03pm
Post #88 of 342
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haha, point taken. nice to see at least someone else here shares my point of view.
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Sunflower
Valinor
Feb 12 2008, 7:15pm
Post #89 of 342
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Well, that was a bit of an exaggeration. It was VERY late last night and when I'm tired I go for the metaphors. I'm a bit embarrassed at what I wrote last night.
I was just thinking in terms of the national and world headlines and how for some people, like me, knowledge that these films were going forward, that there was finally some concrete news, was going to be a welcome distraction from all of that.When we came on this site every day. And besides, for me, it wouldn''t be the only existential "bright spot". That would include a U2 album and tour next year!
As for Christopher Tolkien...I TRIED to make it very clear in my posts above that I DON'T hate him. (While I've said very equivocally that I hate Bob Shaye.) I guess I was just reacting in frustration at this news,. Just as we were FINALLY, after so many months, going to get the ball rolling, the suit throws a MASSIVE monkey wrench in the works. I didn't care much about The Hobbit last year, to tell you the truth....I really didn't start to care for it until this fall. I thought I was patient, but the patience is starting to crack.
And yes, I appreciate what a treasure we have in the films, etc etc, ad nauseum. But the TIMING of this is really eating my craw. He's had 4 yrs to sue, and I will not deny that this has my suspicions up. I DON'T hate him. I'm just shocked and sad. Throwing back the production at even 6 months at this point might mean the end for Del Toro on this project (and PJ like he said would not be able to direct for yrs), and the possible death of Christopher Lee too early. After 85, you slow down REALLY FAST from what I have read. And for Harry Potter fans, ..who was it who said we don;t want a Dumbledore situation ruining this?
As I said in my post above, yes, these are his father's works etc etc, but if he didn't want any more movies made, he coildhave just come out of the woodwork a yr ago and told us. This news would have been a lot easier to bear in 2006. If we're not going to get any more films, I'd be able to bear it if people were more honest, instead of all this prolonged monkeying around. Am I selfish? Maybe. But no more than millions who have been led on to beleive, by everyone this year--and with their silence, the Estate most of all--that they gave grudging approval of this.
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Zmulady
Rohan
Feb 12 2008, 7:25pm
Post #90 of 342
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I think it's ok what you said, it's ok what everyone has said.....Isn't that what these boards are for? besides I think we are all a little worked up over the news. It's frustrating!!!!
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Sunflower
Valinor
Feb 12 2008, 7:29pm
Post #91 of 342
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As for artistic integrity of the films....
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I can't understand by now why Christopher apparently thinks that ANY film adaptation will strictly adhere to the books. NO adaptation of a classic does. I've watched just about all of Hollywood's adaptations of classics. Even great films like "The Grapes Of Wrath" have major changes. (I could run down a dozen Hollywood Classics adaptation from the '30s, the Golden Age of Hollywood, and name scads of changes.Starting with The Wizard OF Oz. For those of you who have read the book, even the thought of song and dance musical is blasphemy.) Whoever makes a Tolkien adaptation is to tweak things, however slightly.that MOVIES are MOVIES and BOOKS are Books. Not knocking the purists of course But take the first Harry Potter film. It was faithful to the letter, and artistically, it's the worst of the lot.
Of course, some errors are greater than others (and I am not an out and out PJ worshipper) but what would make CT think that someone like even Del Toro will film the book page by page? The only way he is to be assured of literary perfection is to have a minder from The Estate on the set every day, like a tourist guide in China or Soviet Union, with a copy of the book open to the scene they are filming, standing ten feet away from the director, and making all the cast and crew sign artistic agreements so there will be no script changes under the actor's door. ....so NOTHING goes wrong. Absolute faithfulness, without changes being made, is impossible. Hey, if they employ a substitute for The Professor, fine with me! I'm all for literary despotism! . But not even Jo Rowling herself colkd stop massive changes from being made to HP.
But then, I'm just opening up the ancient can of worms:)
It's time to let us fans know out and out: is he doing this to stop the films from being made or not? Honesty is what I appreciate here.
(This post was edited by Sunflower on Feb 12 2008, 7:39pm)
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Sunflower
Valinor
Feb 12 2008, 7:31pm
Post #92 of 342
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Forgot to post in Threaded. See my "Well, Okay" post below:)
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Feb 12 2008, 7:58pm
Post #93 of 342
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Christopher Tolkien doesn't hate the films.
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This is not a reply to JRR, but a general response to several comments in the thread that mention Christopher Tolkien. He doesn't hate the films -- see the quote that Darkstone recently posted.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Feb. 11-17 for "The Ring Goes South".
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entmaiden
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Feb 12 2008, 8:26pm
Post #94 of 342
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then the rights stay within the corporation even if Zaentz dies. The corporation is a legal person, and survives the death of a shareholder.
Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.
`Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.
NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows
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bettybalin
The Shire
Feb 12 2008, 8:49pm
Post #95 of 342
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Well, I have to admit I’m a bit of a cynic about the whole thing. But then, I deal with contract law.
Like all here, I haven’t seen the particular document that sold the film rights (However, I have little sympathy for the Tolkien estate here, in that they are upset with how the rights are currently held. Tolkien himself sold the rights, as a competent adult. The terms, the amount, they were all approved by him. It’s a well known fact that if an artist wants to permanently control his works, he shouldn’t sell them. Yes, the films made an obscene money in comparison with the 10K the rights were sold for, but 10K was a lot of money in the 60’s for a author. Either he was desperate for cash or didn’t care about control, but regardless, that’s hardly the purchasers fault. They paid for the rights in good faith and have the ability to use it as they see fit. The author, much less his son who has personally profited from his father’s decisions, does not really have the right for take-back-ies.)
In regards to this newest lawsuit, the timing isn’t terribly surprising. They are striking when NL is the most vulnerable. The rights revert to Zaentz if NL doesn’t start production this year. They know that NL is over a barrel and will attempt to settle as quickly as possible.
However, I find it REALLY hard to believe that the Tolkien estate, if it is truly entitled to funds, hadn’t breathed a word publicly of this until now if it hadn’t received a penny. It just seems very fishy. It’s so easy to jump on the “big-bad-NL bandwagon.” NL is definitely playing expected, industry standard, Hollywood money game of tweaking the books, but I doubt even they would try just not paying someone a penny that was legally entitled to it. Especially an entity as litigious as the Tolkien Estate. There is obviously something more going on here…
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orcbane
Gondor
Feb 12 2008, 9:08pm
Post #96 of 342
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I want Ronalds left shinbone as a relic
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and then maybe many Tolkien fans will make a pilgrimage to my home and visit me while admirring my Ronald shinbone. Bring exotic coffees to leave at the shrine. 
I'm in the 'smells fishy' camp at the moment. I don't mean our camp smells fishy I, mean the Tolkien Estate suit and timing smells fishy.
Why didn't they bring this forward before ?
It looks like a spoilage attempt on the new films, or just as bettybalin mentioned a plain old viking plundering raid. New Line is like the modern Lindesfarn (can I have a spell check). I would guess Mr C doesn't like the 2nd film of connective tissue. Too close to his baby, which for some reason he does not want to see made into a film. I wish he would get over it already. Its 2008 C. Thats MMVIII. Why deny the cinema world exposure to these works ?
An Ent juggling spikey things ?
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bettybalin
The Shire
Feb 12 2008, 9:10pm
Post #97 of 342
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NL is definitely playing expected, industry standard, Hollywood money game of tweaking the books, but I doubt even they would try just not paying someone a penny that was legally entitled to it. Especially an entity as litigious as the Tolkien Estate.
I’m of course speaking of someone entitled to gross profits. Net profits? There never are any in Hollywood accounting.
I know how Hollywood works seems foreign to most of us, but its predatory practices continue because of the never-ending threat of blacklist. You complain, you don’t get work. End of story. Shaye tried that with PJ and was probably shocked when he told him to stuff it (politely, of course). Hollywood is used to capitulation. Hollywood is not used to outsiders with more money than god AND principles.
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Peredhil lover
Valinor
Feb 12 2008, 10:43pm
Post #98 of 342
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I don't think I was able to make clear what I meant.
If I blame anyone, than it is New Line. I was not so much angry about the lawsuit itself (though the timing *is* suspect), as I think if NL truly didn't pay all this money, Tolkien Estate has every right to sue them. You could take that from my earlier posts in this discussion.
What I was objecting to is the opinion they - or CT - are telling everyone they sue NL because of the money, but in truth only want to get their rights back. To me, this seems a bit underhanded, and I am not sure CT would revert to such means. That has nothing whatsoever to do with taking out my disappointment on CT, but with the expectation of honesty, even if that may be rather odd in this business. From him I expect better than that, simply.
Anyway, this may delay the whole movie so much that NL loses the rights anyway; courts aren't famous for speed. And can they take the rights from Zaentz because NL betrayed them? This is going to be a long and confusing playground for lawyers, I fear.
I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.
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Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea
Feb 12 2008, 10:55pm
Post #99 of 342
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I say this as an artist and a Tolkien fan. And I greatly want to see the film made.
My LJ
My art site
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Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea
Feb 12 2008, 11:00pm
Post #100 of 342
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It's ridiculous bringing up the "PJ ruined some things/all things in LOTR" when this argument is concerning *New Line* and the Tolkien Estate. PJ, from what I recall, is not an employee of NL. 
My LJ
My art site
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