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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
'Thorin Lives' Rumors Are Persisting!
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Meneldor
Tol Eressea


Jun 7 2014, 1:47am

Post #26 of 75 (1176 views)
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He's not really dead, you know, [In reply to] Can't Post

as long as we remember him.


They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters; These see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep.


DaughterofLaketown
Gondor


Jun 7 2014, 1:58am

Post #27 of 75 (1171 views)
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Would love this [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Maybe we should start a petition to make sure Kili lives so he can live happily ever after with Tauriel.

Quote


(This post was edited by DaughterofLaketown on Jun 7 2014, 1:58am)


Mooseboy018
Grey Havens


Jun 7 2014, 2:17am

Post #28 of 75 (1164 views)
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everyone lives! [In reply to] Can't Post

And maybe then they can shoot new scenes for the next blu-ray release with Sean Bean so Boromir doesn't actually die. And they can digitally insert a big fluffy pillow for Theoden to land on after the Witch King throws him.Wink


Darkstone
Immortal


Jun 7 2014, 7:24am

Post #29 of 75 (1130 views)
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Just pinin' for the fjords. / [In reply to] Can't Post

 

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.Ē


ElendilTheShort
Gondor


Jun 7 2014, 10:38am

Post #30 of 75 (1129 views)
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thorin should die otherwise it is too much of a deviation and the movie would be too separated from the book, which in many ways it already is but why make it worse [In reply to] Can't Post

i do not think thorins death and speech were his only redemption and he like boromir is widely misunderstood imo. i would be aggrieved too if armed people showed up at my house forcefully laying claim to what laid within if i had just managed to secure it all again after almost a lifetime of being dispossesed after the murder of countless relatives, friends and subjects that i had a responsibility for. as far as the theft of the a.stone is concerned he was well within his right to kill bilbo within the context of the situation as he had stated his policy re the a.stone to his co. including bilbo. as a comparism remember aragorns words re anduril at the doors of meduseld, he was going to kill any man that touched the sword, and noone thought ill of that. thorin was going to compensate laketown but not under threat of arms, and i agree with what others have implied that the elven kings actions were well out of order. why were they and the laketowners electing to wage war on thorin and co, for wealth that is why, they could have gone back to laketown without war, the elves could have aided the men to ensure their wellbeing and left the dwarves to it. thorin is not unreasonably greedy but quite rightly p.o.'d with the attention everyone is giving his home and possesions. they all flocked around erebor quicker than a sackville baggins to an empty hobbit hole.


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jun 7 2014, 10:41am

Post #31 of 75 (1107 views)
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Hi there! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jun 7 2014, 10:47am

Post #32 of 75 (1120 views)
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While I cry my eyes out every time I read his death scene in the book [In reply to] Can't Post

and while it's so nice to think about AU scenarios where he lives... Had that happened in the canon, I wouldn't love him as much as a character. These tragic characters whose stories end in death (on panel, after the book ends there's this life to live, and that life inevitably comes to death at some point) just remain with me in a whole different way than the characters that got a happy ending. Boromor, Maedhros, Beleg... had they lived, I would have been happy for them, closed the book and not really thought about them as much afterwards.

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


Eleniel
Tol Eressea


Jun 7 2014, 1:12pm

Post #33 of 75 (1099 views)
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But not all the gold was Thorin's... [In reply to] Can't Post

Bard was asking for the share of gold stolen during the sack of Dale which belonged to his ancestors, to help rebuild Lake-town. it was not greed on his part at all...
As for the Arkenstone, in the book, yes, the stone is discussed before Bilbo finds it, but simply listed among the things "that Thorin and Balin remembered." (along with King Bladorthin's spears, and Girion's necklace of 500 emeralds, etc.) The "Heart of the Mountain, the Arkenstone of Thrain" is described in detail, and the memory of it has Thorin "half-dreaming with chin upon his knees." At this point, however, he does not lay claim to it personally, or emphasize any symbolic importance that is only in the movie-verse. So when Bilbo finds it he justifies him keeping it himself as being his fourteenth share, which they said he could choose anything he liked....all the same, he deep down knew that it probably didn't include the Arkenstone, even though it had not been spelt out as such.,


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Į Victoria Monfort


ShireHorse
Rohan

Jun 7 2014, 2:04pm

Post #34 of 75 (1084 views)
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The Battle of Maldon, [In reply to] Can't Post

Avendel, brings back memories. I chose to specialise in Anglo-Saxon and Old Norse for my English degree years ago which was just before I came across LotR. When our group translated The Battle of Maldon, there were tears, let me tell you, because it was such a moving scenario. And, although it is based on an historical battle, it happened so long ago (991 AD) that it might as well be fiction - which brings me to your other post about being upset by the deaths of fictional characters: "What's Hecuba to him or he to Hecuba/That he should weep for her?" (Hamlet)

But TBoM is a wonderful epic poem that uplifts in spite of the defeat described. A party of Vikings have beached their ships on an island just off the Essex coast near Maldon, and the only way ashore is via a narrow causeway. The Anglo-Saxons have raised an army of local warriors and refuse to let them cross. I think this would be our obvious response too, LOL. But, then the Vikings taunt them and ask to be let across safely so that they can fight each other, man to man. And this is where modern tacticians roll their eyes because the Saxons, although obviously outgunned, let them come over!!!

Can we really put our minds back a thousand years and understand the way the Saxons thought about this? Byrhtnoth, the formidable Saxon leader (Thorin?), is described by the poet as having 'ofermod'. Tolkien translates this as the sin of pride but he was a Christian and a Catholic, so he would, wouldn't he? Boastful pride was a thing approved of by the pagan cultures and the Anglo-Saxons were only just becoming Christian at this point. The word could be translated as meaning one who behaves recklessly through having too much heart. Again, I think of Thorin or of Theoden at the Pelennor Fields or of Eomer who charges into the thick of battle because an 'ofermod' falls upon him after he thinks that Eowyn is dead.

The Saxons put up a terrific fight but are eventually overwhelmed and make a Last Stand. This is where you see that the most important thing to them is to stand shoulder to shoulder around their leader and their lord - their 'ring-giver' - protecting him with their bodies and their swords. Within the comitatus, they owe him everything; and the poet curses forever one who rides away as a coward, especially since the lord has given him horses in the past.

When I read LotR a couple of years later, my heart caught in my throat when I got to Rohan and read the descriptions of the horse-lords and the subsequent battles in the story because it took me right back to those Anglo-Saxon translation classes and the heroic nature of the verse:

"Mind must be the stronger, heart the bolder, courage the greater, as our might lessens."


glor
Rohan

Jun 7 2014, 2:09pm

Post #35 of 75 (1089 views)
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History is open to interpretation [In reply to] Can't Post

There were many men Like my Great Grandfather and his brother, whom I spent many hours with as a child, who felt that many senior members of the British army sat in their offices behind the lines whilst they saw their comrades slaughtered in pointless attempts to push the borders of the trenches in the Somme. There is an interpretation of WWI history, that sees the Generals as using 19th century colonial warfare in a 20th Century conflict, and failed their soldiers as a result. World War I in terms of history is considered to be a mess, a dreadful war in which Generals sent soldiers their certain deaths, knowing full well in many cases that nothing would be achieved except the deaths of hundreds. I understand the rationale of what you are saying but it isn't as clear cut as that.

British history is embedded with a myth, that leaders, head the assault, that Kings and generals should lead their armies into battle and not sit safely behind the lines whilst they counted the slaughter. To men raised on such myths, the actions of the higher ranks of the British army in WWI would have seemed dishonourable.

Whilst, I am not overly familiar with the military history of WWI, I am with the social history of Britain surrounding that war and, the social changes, and attitudes that resulted from WWI are quite marked; deference based on class and birth is severely eroded because many of those working class men that did return felt betrayed by their commanding 'betters' and the subsequent rise of the Labour movement that came from that change of attitudes.. Perhaps as a sociologist, I am coming at this from a different perspective, which looks at attitudes and perception, and how that creates discourses that activate social change. I know from my readings, that my Great grandfather was not the only soldier who returned from WWI with feelings of betrayal, and considered the actions of those higher up in the British army as dishonourable.

My great Grandfather always taught me never to defer to my betters, never to take orders without question, he never talked about the details, just the lessons he learnt from his experiences.

Although he did learn to read in the trenches of the Somme, he was taught by an officer, that's all I know and I have always wondered whether, well...you know.


(This post was edited by glor on Jun 7 2014, 2:10pm)


Avandel
Valinor

Jun 7 2014, 3:15pm

Post #36 of 75 (1072 views)
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True - and in the movie that's a lot of gold but ElendiltheShort makes great points IMO [In reply to] Can't Post

And whether any of that eye-popping treasure horde in the film belonged to the Laketowners or not, I'd hate to think Thorin, even a member of a clannish, secretive race, is so unkind that - if not dragon sick - he wouldn't have helped the Laketowners. For long term economics and security if nothing else "this was the center of all trade in the North".

Thorin is obviously a good king "you have built a new life for us in the Blue Mountains, a life of peace, and plenty" and you don't do that with a huge group of exiles without being able to trade and deal with other races for supplies and goods. Plus we saw in AUJ dwarves, men all content and happy in the Dale market, obviously co-existing.

But: " i do not think thorins death and speech were his only redemption and he like boromir is widely misunderstood imo. i would be aggrieved too if armed people showed up at my house forcefully laying claim to what laid within if i had just managed to secure it all again after almost a lifetime of being dispossesed after the murder of countless relatives, friends and subjects that i had a responsibility for."

Well said! ElendiltheShort in a single post summed up a lot of the things that have always troubled me about the Hobbit and Thorin's arc, there's Thorin's behavior and madness - but there's also the behavior - or lack of better behavior, or just not doing anything at all, from everyone else. Think it will be easy in the film to see (I assume) Bard's justifiable anger if he looks around and sees starving, cold, burnt Laketowners, especially when his relationship with Thorin is strained already.

But since we never saw it depicted, really, we never SAW a scenario where Thorin, perhaps, looks around and sees starving, ragged, dwarves, never see him tell a dwarf mother there is no more food, never see him pick up a shovel, possibly, and bury the fallen during their wanderings. Tho he alludes to this w. Thranduil and so I think it's easy to forget what Thorin has been through.

At least in the movie there's a I think a better treatment of why Bilbo takes the stone, e.g. to protect Thorin evidently, where in the book I think the reasons he initially takes it aren't really explained. But it's troubling anyway, for me - partly because not sure with the deep history, clannishness, pride of the dwarf race and their values, that Bilbo really understands what he's done, from a dwarf perspective - that these aren't hobbits he is dealing with. And partly wrong or right, I think - in the movie anyway - that Thorin loves Bilbo, as much as the rest of the company - that Bilbo being freely willing to give his life really won Thorin over and so the betrayal is truly horrific from Thorin's standpoint.

And of course tho re Thorin - he's NOT himself. Bard's probably "not himself" either if he is angry e.g. a poor choice to be dealing with Thorin and someone once posted on another board "the monumental stupidity of allying with an elf, and particularly the elf being Thranduil". And too, and I don't understand this - is it the gold that drives the gold sickness? The Arkenstone? that seemed to get kind of confusing. But if it's the stone driving Thorin mad, why ever give it back at all?

But I don't blame Thorin "I will not negotiate with an army at my gates". I can't even blame him for bringing Dain in and trying to get out of the situation, once he saw it was Thranduil and the elves that "had turned their back" outside his walls.


Avandel
Valinor

Jun 7 2014, 3:26pm

Post #37 of 75 (1068 views)
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Loved your post [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you, you laid out many of the same things that trouble me - and I DO have empathy for Boromir - and I do think the movie treats Boromir with dignity and respect.

IMO if anyone is to blame for what happens to Boromir, it's his father.

"the elves could have aided the men to ensure their wellbeing and left the dwarves to it. thorin is not unreasonably greedy but quite rightly p.o.'d with the attention everyone is giving his home and possesions. they all flocked around erebor quicker than a sackville baggins to an empty hobbit hole." SlySlySly

Right on point IMO - something that troubled me in the book from the first. I suppose Tolkien meant for sympathy for the Laketowners but I remember even as a kid being taken aback, getting a picture in my head of a rabble of Frankenstein movie villagers with pitchforks surrounding the castle -e.g. as I kid I thought the Laketowners were greedy, because you don't just show up and demand gold, you ask nicely (OK, I was a kid, you get fuzzy images in your head).

And WHY DON'T THE ELVES HELP? They are obviously well off - just look at Thranduil's cellars and clothes - and already have a trading relationship w. Laketown. Plus, they could ask for help from other elves in Lothlorien and Rivendell.


Avandel
Valinor

Jun 7 2014, 5:25pm

Post #38 of 75 (1037 views)
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Lovely, lovely post Shirehorse - thank you for sharing that [In reply to] Can't Post

Your post helped a lot re my coping!Evil Thank you!" "What's Hecuba to him or he to Hecuba/That he should weep for her?" (Hamlet)"

(I could write pages about why I would weep for Thorin, or would have crawled to Erebor if he asked. But that would get pretty personal! The shorter version I think being what a professor described as seeing something "outside self" e.g. where a film character, another person, an event, an animal, a book, art, both evokes "things that were" and possibly things that could be, and above all is deeply moving and inspirational).

Love this!Heart
"Can we really put our minds back a thousand years and understand the way the Saxons thought about this? Byrhtnoth, the formidable Saxon leader (Thorin?), is described by the poet as having 'ofermod'. Tolkien translates this as the sin of pride but he was a Christian and a Catholic, so he would, wouldn't he? Boastful pride was a thing approved of by the pagan cultures and the Anglo-Saxons were only just becoming Christian at this point. The word could be translated as meaning one who behaves recklessly through having too much heart. Again, I think of Thorin or of Theoden at the Pelennor Fields or of Eomer who charges into the thick of battle because an 'ofermod' falls upon him after he thinks that Eowyn is dead."

This also dovetails with the suggestion from another poster last summer that I read about the Viking mentality (some of which is being presented in the TV series) and also what I have read re the fierce Celts, in that to my mind they scarcely seemed to distinguish between life and death, viewing death as another plane of existence (which I think even within the Two Towers is alluded to "he will find his way to the halls of his fathers" and Theoden's comments of meeting his ancestors without shame - e.g. death with honor)

The concept of 'ofermad' I found interesting, in that in the back of my mind I have thought that the movie Thorin at least - and possibly all the dwarves - tend to have what the Greeks termed "battle madness". Certainly the term 'ofermad' could be ascribed to Thorin. I myself called it "fire/heart" and it's one of the things I love about the character - e.g. it's already, poor comfort or not, something I've told myself - if Thorin weren't fiery, even to the point of recklessly suicidal at times, would this be a character I cared about, in that this is inherently who he IS? Would this character have the same "charisma", be a "true dwarf" even - Gimli himself would throw himself at multiple enemies.
For me admirable, "a king I could follow" but realistically a being that could die because of it, and seems willing to do so.

"and the poet curses forever one who rides away as a coward, especially since the lord has given him horses in the past."- *cough* just as, for instance, society has "cursed" the recent episodes of ship captains saving themselves.

I AM grateful that yourself, and others, took the time to post their thoughts and views, and knowledge, as while I DO understand what the OP was saying, I think where Thorin is concerned the word "begging" hit me quite the wrong way, and a fairly common concept of Thorin as a symbol of greed (book and movie) always will, even if that is what Tolkien intended (with his vast store of knowledge I am not sure, and it's even more difficult in that this was developed for children without the details of LOTR)

So for me it's been helpful (and a learning experience as well as realizing all the things I might want to read up on - always a good thing to add to the book list). I mean to mark this whole thread and some other wise commentary, which I think will be helpful for those of us who are troubled as BOFA approaches. It's easy to forget wise views when the probably inevitable squabbles erupt over Thorin's (probably) difficult-to-watch behavior re Bilbo in particular, which RA has alluded to. For myself, if as RA says the dwarf company preparations truly are akin to the LOTR lighting of the beacons, I may well be sorrowful but uplifted at the same time "if this is to end in fire, then we will all burn together".

And I quite like the (hope) idea of the wonderful Lee Pace as the haughty, ageless Thranduil at the end, with Thorin - to have the respect of that enemy, a great king and warrior in his own right, who had seen so many ages pass and so many warriors fall.

Thanks again, I'm actually feeling a bit better about BOFA - as these posts helped me re-frame things to some extent - tho a lot, of course, is going to depend on PJ's execution on film. But I have faith that PJ will take good care of Bilbo, and the Heirs of Durin - especially since Evil like so many of us one of the screenwriters seems to care for the character as well e.g. Thorin DOES get some wonderful lines.


"Looking back on Bag End, it's...it's like we're just so innocent. We were all so happy...in that place, about to start this journey" - Richard Armitage, The Hobbit Appendices.

"If this is to end in fire, then we will all burn together" - Thorin, The Desolation of Smaug.




dormouse
Half-elven


Jun 7 2014, 5:47pm

Post #39 of 75 (1040 views)
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Yes - the attitudes you're describing developed after the War.... [In reply to] Can't Post

.. for the most part, in the late 20s and into the 30s, when many of the men who had served in the front line returned to find that the world had moved on at home. There was no work for a lot of them and, more generally, people at home wanted to forget the horrors and struggles they had never experienced at first hand. Then old soldiers started to feel betrayed. But there is another side to the picture - it isn't as clear-cut as you're suggesting. At the time of his death, for example, Field Marshal Haig who commanded the British army after the Battle of Loos was genuinely popular with his former soldiers, of all ranks, as evidenced by their response to his funeral. Academic history has moved away in recent years from the view of the War you put forward in your original post.

Sorry, don't mean to go on at you and I don't know where you are in the world, but there is no truth in the idea that the British people or the British army thought their senior officers dishonourable. I've been researching all this in some depth for a book of my own, completed a few weeks ago, so it's very much on my mind at the moment. The officer who taught your great-grandfather to read was far more typical of the front-line officer (it's the sort of thing Tolkien himself might have done.) Looking after the men was part of their code, written down in Army regulations.


ElendilTheShort
Gondor


Jun 7 2014, 7:34pm

Post #40 of 75 (1036 views)
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and i said as much and read that part of the hobbit book as if [In reply to] Can't Post

thorin was willing to give up what was owed historically to the heir of girion but not under threat of arms especially the elven presence. but the a.stone he did say was his alone and deep down bilbo knew taking it was wrong so he bought thorins wrath on himself


Noria
Rohan

Jun 7 2014, 8:57pm

Post #41 of 75 (1018 views)
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IMO, itís pretty clear why book Bilbo takes the Arkenstone. [In reply to] Can't Post

Itís beautiful and he wants it. He knows that itís wrong to take it, that the Arkenstone could never be part of his share, he knows that trouble will come from concealing it but he takes it and hides it anyway. I suppose he falls under its spell. All that is muted a bit in the book because we see everything from Bilboís POV and heís deluding himself. He knows very well how much Thorin wants the Arkenstone, which is why he knows that his plan to avert a war by giving it to Thorinís enemies will work.

They seem to be making movie Bilboís motives more complex and it will be interesting to see how that plays out.

Though Iím a little more of a Bilbo fan than a fan of Thorin, I really like both characters a lot, especially movie Thorin over his book counterpart. But there is no use in deluding myself about either of them, and I take the bad with the good. Thereís a lot of blame to go around for the siege of Erebor and Thorin has as at least much as share of it as anyone else.


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jun 7 2014, 10:28pm

Post #42 of 75 (1000 views)
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The Wood-elves and the Lake-towners [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
"the elves could have aided the men to ensure their wellbeing and left the dwarves to it. thorin is not unreasonably greedy but quite rightly p.o.'d with the attention everyone is giving his home and possesions. they all flocked around erebor quicker than a sackville baggins to an empty hobbit hole." SlySlySly

Right on point IMO - something that troubled me in the book from the first. I suppose Tolkien meant for sympathy for the Laketowners but I remember even as a kid being taken aback, getting a picture in my head of a rabble of Frankenstein movie villagers with pitchforks surrounding the castle -e.g. as I kid I thought the Laketowners were greedy, because you don't just show up and demand gold, you ask nicely (OK, I was a kid, you get fuzzy images in your head).

And WHY DON'T THE ELVES HELP? They are obviously well off - just look at Thranduil's cellars and clothes - and already have a trading relationship w. Laketown. Plus, they could ask for help from other elves in Lothlorien and Rivendell.



Well, we don't know exactly what happens in the third movie yet, but in the book the Elves do aid the folk of Lake-town. Roughly half of Thranduil's host remains at Long Lake to aid the survivors, incidentally freeing up any Men who are still fit to march to Erebor with Bard.

But, as for asking aid from other Elven communities: The isolationism of the Mirkwood-elves and their king had cut them off even from other Elves--Tolkien even has Legolas remark on this in LotR. Also, Rivendell would be too far away to ask for such aid, especially since Thranduil would have been unaware yet that the passes would be relatively safe because the goblins were gathering themselves to march on the Mountain.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


ElendilTheShort
Gondor


Jun 7 2014, 10:41pm

Post #43 of 75 (1003 views)
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funny how all the free people of laketown and the forest [In reply to] Can't Post

were free to assail the mountain when the dragon was in residence but chose not too. although laketown alone suffered from the dragons attack at the time of the story and imo is due aid from erebor, why didn't the heir of girion and the remnants of any people of dale who essentially displaced to laketown after smaugs initial invasion, take any action against smaug of their own volition prior to thorin and co's actions. if they weren't willing to take the risk, why are they due the reward. thorin is the least to blame for the seige. if we were to hypothetically remove the goblins, wargs and bats from this event, dwarves would have died at the hands of elves and men due to the invasion of the dwarves home, it would have been a one sided massacre as it was 513 dwarves vs thousands of men, elves, a maia and a hobbit.

thorins death speech shouldn't be seen as only his redemption but a lesson to all involved, not least bard and thranduil. furthermore gandalf as an istari sent by the valar to unite the free people against sauron failed at this point. he should have been working very hard to get bard and thranduil to withdraw peacefully, instead like a jerk he chastises thorin with no harsh words for the other leaders present. he should have instead exhibited considerable empathy towards thorin for his plight. i realise that as of the time of writing TH gandalf was not fully realised in his later role, but if we are to treat the mythology as a whole the point stands, and at the least he did have the wise counsellor role in TH.

to reiterate thorins position,
he witnessed the destruction of his home at a young age, including the death of many of his people.
he spent the best part of his life in exile burdened with returning to his home, not self imposed as others have said but being in receipt of both map and key as well as being asked by gandalf, for the express purpose of being used to destroy the dragon......not take back erebor, but to destroy the dragon was gandalfs only concern.
during exile the best part of the remaining displaced dwarves as well as others from other homes were destroyed at Anazulibicantspellit, something that would not have happened if they still had erebor.
after a long arduous quest of being captured by trolls, goblins, spiders and elves, then almost being killed by a dragon, his home is finally free of the dragon then next thing.....bam people are at his doorstep including some of those who previously imprisoned him, with an army, demanding....not asking, but demanding compensation under threat of violence. of course thorin is going to be angry and want everyone to cool their heels before any of the hoard gets divided up. poor thorin is easily the most hard done by character in the story.


ElendilTheShort
Gondor


Jun 7 2014, 10:45pm

Post #44 of 75 (991 views)
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by elves i simply meant the woodland realm [In reply to] Can't Post

even if it was a stretch they could have provided the surviving laketowners with the essentials for survival, ther was absolutely no way the invasion of erebor was going to immediately help laketown. the elven king had plenty of treasure he could have used at need to purchase anything he couldn't materially provide to laketown to ensure the survivors were sheltered and fed. also gandalf the great mover of the free people was not far removed and soon present. he could have rallied help from lorien and the woodmen


(This post was edited by ElendilTheShort on Jun 7 2014, 10:50pm)


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jun 7 2014, 10:54pm

Post #45 of 75 (986 views)
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My post was a reply to Avandel. [In reply to] Can't Post

Poster Avandel specifically mentioned Rivendell and Lothlorien.

We don't know when Gandalf joined up with Bard and Thranduil. He may have bypassed Lake-town altogether, or missed them there and caught up with them at the Mountain. In any case, the Wizard had found out about the gathering Orcs and knew that Lorien and Rivendell were too far away to provide timely assistance.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


ElendilTheShort
Gondor


Jun 7 2014, 11:36pm

Post #46 of 75 (978 views)
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aid in what? [In reply to] Can't Post

the long term benefit of laketown survivors or the claim on erebor?

they were too far away for the assault but certainly not too far away to send supply trains for providing essentials to the suvivors.

my argument is based on the fact that the elves and men did not go to erebor to fight goblins and wargs, they went there to enter an unguarded mountain and claim the massive treasure within as they thought the dwarves were dead. the point being if only the pure motive of providing for laketowns survivors was the concern of men and elves, they should have stayed away from erebor, but their claim based in no small part in greed drove them north instead of looking south for aid. and for their troubles many failed to return home.


(This post was edited by ElendilTheShort on Jun 7 2014, 11:46pm)


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jun 7 2014, 11:41pm

Post #47 of 75 (978 views)
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Possibly both. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the original reference was to rebuilding Esgaroth and seeing to the needs of the survivors in the mean time. However, the town would be effectively dead if all of its adtult men (with the exception of the elderly) were killed by Orcs at Lonely Mountain.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Avandel
Valinor

Jun 8 2014, 2:17am

Post #48 of 75 (981 views)
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That's one of the things that threw me in the book [In reply to] Can't Post

"He knows that itís wrong to take it, that the Arkenstone could never be part of his share, he knows that trouble will come from concealing it but he takes it and hides it anyway. I suppose he falls under its spell. All that is muted a bit in the book..."

Muted is a good word - I remember thinking unpleasantly AND confused re the book Bilbo, and not liking him much for that, also because although Bilbo's "pluckiness" is very often charming to me in the book, to me he seemed to be getting perilously close to getting above himself, akin to Samwise when wearing the Ring - tho I think some folks would offer that that, itself, is part of the point, the simple straightforward values of a hobbit presented to "the great", offering a solution.

Love Martin Freeman's Bilbo tho - love the look on his face when he delivers the "conkers" line, that still makes me laugh. I'm quite happy with the film Bilbo and what I think some of his motivation is, from DOS. His trust in Thorin I find very touching e.g. telling Smaug "your're lying".

"But there is no use in deluding myself about either of them, and I take the bad with the good. Thereís a lot of blame to go around for the siege of Erebor and Thorin has as at least much as share of it as anyone else."

*Smile* - interesting! I use the phrase "a lot of blame to go around" also re the Hobbit.
Yes, I'm not so loyal/besotted/blind that I don't know there is ALWAYS a choice e.g. the Balin-Thorin scene, and thanks to a complex performance, feel the movie Thorin knows on some level there ARE choices, no matter how bound or tortured/driven he may feel by being a dwarf or his heritage/duty - it's STILL a choice. And Thorin chooses. I know that, no matter how I view the failings of other characters - and they make choices as well.

*Sigh* as Gandalf says, "your pride will be the death of you."Unsure





Avandel
Valinor

Jun 8 2014, 2:34am

Post #49 of 75 (972 views)
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And true enough [In reply to] Can't Post

I've tripped over the "actual" distances of Middle Earth before - looking at a map image, and then it will be pointed out to me that these are vast distances (similar as from the film it's hard to FEEL just how long the Company was in Mirkwood).

Thank you (again) for pointing out the actual book details. For me how things play out with Thranduil will be fascinating in the film, on the one hand re the movie, he offers Thorin "help" which I assume would be an entire army of elves, perhaps. But Thranduil at that point must know (unless he has some magic planned) there's an inherent danger of an angry dragon, e.g. Laketown doesn't even come up.

But this is the same being who says "Long wil I tarry, ere I begin this war for gold." and I'm sure they are going to keep such an iconic line from the book.

And Thranduil being who he is, assumed he could reach Lothlorien or Rivendell by an animal messenger if need be - that he could if he truly thought "his kin" were needed. Frustratingly in the film so much of what Thranduil is capable of at need isn't fleshed out (at least, it is frustrating for me who is fascinated by this character). At least not yet tho perhaps there will be more in the EE.


Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor


Jun 8 2014, 3:58am

Post #50 of 75 (970 views)
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Wow, I've missed an interesting sub-thread! [In reply to] Can't Post

Great points made. Just a few quick thoughts:
1) imo, I don't think Thorin intended to compensate Laketown, under duress or otherwise. To me, he deemed Smaug's horde as his. What lays in Erebor stays in Erebor and so on.
2) Bard and Thranduil may not have right of ownership to all of Smaug's horde, but I wager their partial claims have legitimacy. But regardless of that, it would be foolish of any leader to not want to go grab some. For one, it gives quick boasts to the treasury (Mirkwood does not seem to have much in terms of going economic concerns, and Laketown depends on Mirkwood for trade... vicious cycle right there) with no visible downside except the labour needed to do the work and the need to move quickly and pre-empt other claims. Secondly, politically, who would sit tight on the high chair of morality and allow the neighbours to gain in any way, monetary or military, at his expense, even if they are the best of neighbours? And the reality is, if they don't go grab it, the team batting for the other side's gonna profit at their expense. Threat and deterrence is probably top of the concern list for any leader, especially Bard and Thranduil, living in such dangerous times in a dangerous place. Altruism is great on paper, but realities of living does strange warps on the best psyches. But to their credit, both have tried to negotiate with Thorin when they realise the company lives. It's not as if they went all Putin on Thorin's Company.
3) Thorin's death is written, as was Boromir's. That's how the prof wrote it, and that's how it's going to stay Smile



Quote
And Thranduil being who he is, assumed he could reach Lothlorien or Rivendell by an animal messenger if need be - that he could if he truly thought "his kin" were needed.

Avandel, you know my thoughts on Thranduil, so I'll leave off the dittos and high-fives on your points here Smile But regarding sending for help - Thranduil would probably rather eat his fabulous drape robe before he requests Lothlorien's assistance (unless the situation was truly DREAR), and Elrond's too far away. Nope, Mirkwood's going solo on this one.




Fan of both books and movies. Oh, and it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.

Appreciating Thranduil, thread by thread: I, II, III, IV, V

"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBofTA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies

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