Our Sponsor Sideshow Collectibles Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien
Do you enjoy the 100% volunteer, not for profit services of TheOneRing.net?
Consider a donation!

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Off Topic: Off Topic:
"Best Books" list can provide fodder for interesting discussion

demnation
Rohan

Jun 5 2014, 1:41am

Post #1 of 21 (284 views)
Shortcut
"Best Books" list can provide fodder for interesting discussion Can't Post

The full list and the whys:

http://www.irishexaminer.com/...oks-ever-270217.html

And an analysis of who reads what

http://www.irishexaminer.com/...oks-poll-270210.html

Harry Potter (No. 1) beats The Lord of the Rings, but only by a whisker. The most interesting thing about the list for me is that we actually hear from the people who helped form it. It's actually a little refreshing to hear why people love a book rather than them just listing their favorite books. Another interesting thing is who reads what in what age group. Harry Potter is obviously more popular with the younger crowd while others trend a bit older. The Lord of the Rings and To Kill a Mockingbird seem to have the broadest appeal. Anyway, what books do you love (besides the obvious) and most importantly, why?

"It is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till. What weather they shall have is not ours to rule." Gandalf, "The Last Debate."


Dame Ioreth
Grey Havens


Jun 5 2014, 6:10pm

Post #2 of 21 (181 views)
Shortcut
Another interesting aspect of this list... [In reply to] Can't Post

... is how many of those books have been challenged or banned or outright burned. You can find a fairly comprehensive list here on the ALA website.

Good books make us think and that's dangerous.

Where there's life there's hope, and need of vittles.
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings






(This post was edited by Dame Ioreth on Jun 5 2014, 6:12pm)


Darkstone
Immortal


Jun 5 2014, 6:12pm

Post #3 of 21 (179 views)
Shortcut
Always a good selling point with me. [In reply to] Can't Post

I've read many a book just because other people didn't want me to.

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”


Aunt Dora Baggins
Half-elven


Jun 5 2014, 6:29pm

Post #4 of 21 (179 views)
Shortcut
A lot of my favorites are in that list [In reply to] Can't Post

like Little Women, which shaped my attitudes about fashion and feminism at a young age, and had some great advice that has helped my marriage through the decades.

And Wuthering Heights, which is like watching a train wreck with the same gorgeous moorland scenery I fell in love with when I read The Secret Garden (one I would add to the list.)

Others they included were TKAM, which is so moving and funny, sometimes at the same time. And Slaughterhouse Five, with the same comment.

One that didn't make the list, and which doesn't seem to be very well known, is The Face in the Frost, which is hilarious and terrifying at the same time. Also some of James Thurber's fairy tales, like The Thirteen Clocks. No one can write like Thurber.

And my lifetime favorite, The Wizard of Oz, along with some of the sequels, in particular The Land of Oz and The Emerald City of Oz and The Patchwork Girl of Oz, which were the ones I grew up with, though I have them all now.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



CuriousG
Valinor


Jun 6 2014, 5:18am

Post #5 of 21 (166 views)
Shortcut
To Kill a Mockingbird--ouch [In reply to] Can't Post

That's one of my favorite books, and just this week I've been re-reading it. It's really painful to read how casually she uses the n-word, and it's not just the racists in the book who use it. I'm not one for banning books, but I sorta wish someone would white out the casual n-word usage in my copy and hand it back to me.


Cirashala
Grey Havens


Jun 6 2014, 5:45am

Post #6 of 21 (164 views)
Shortcut
you can do that [In reply to] Can't Post

I read a book once that had extremely offensive curse words used as exclamations, and I simply took a pen and scribbled them out (I would not advise using marker- it bleeds through the paper onto the other side). Now that there's white out tape, which isn't as messy and you can cut down to size, you could easily white out those words then feel free to enjoy the book sans offense Smile



Aunt Dora Baggins
Half-elven


Jun 6 2014, 11:09am

Post #7 of 21 (161 views)
Shortcut
I remember when my kids were young [In reply to] Can't Post

I read "Huckleberry Finn" out loud to them. I had been raised all my life to feel like the n-word was the worst bad word a person could say, so it was really hard to wrap my tongue around it. But I explained to my kids that this book was written in a different time, and that some words that were once used commonly were considered extremely offensive today, but that we were going to read the book the way it was written, and not use that word ourselves. And they were able to hear the book and enjoy it, and never used that word outside of that reading.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Annael
Half-elven


Jun 6 2014, 6:39pm

Post #8 of 21 (152 views)
Shortcut
makes me wonder [In reply to] Can't Post

what words we use without thinking now that might cause future generations to shudder? The f-word that some people seem incapable of omitting from both spoken and written speech? The use of feminine terms to insult men? Ageist terms?

To be sane we must recognize our beliefs as fictions.

- James Hillman, Healing Fiction

* * * * * * * * * *

NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967


squire
Valinor


Jun 6 2014, 10:23pm

Post #9 of 21 (143 views)
Shortcut
That's the approach I take [In reply to] Can't Post

I teach Huckleberry Finn and To Kill A Mockingbird that way, and my students nervously go along. But then, they get upset when I have them listen to Martin Luther King describing himself as a Negro. Once or twice I've been accused of racism for using the English word 'black' in my classroom, in whatever context (the other students quickly came to my defense).

As others have noted, our generation may well be speaking in terms that future generations will find curious, if not outright offensive or even obscene.

Certainly one shouldn't have to read a book that one finds offensive, though maybe chancing the consequences like failing the college course the book is taught in. But I get nervous when a request is made to 'clean up' a book so it 'can be read' today. That's too anti-historical to me; I think it's important to deal with the past as it was, not as we wish it had been.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


Aunt Dora Baggins
Half-elven


Jun 7 2014, 5:19am

Post #10 of 21 (135 views)
Shortcut
I often wonder what things we do [In reply to] Can't Post

that will feel as incomprehensible to future generations as things like slavery do to us. How could good, ordinary people participate in that? What do we do now that will elicit the same response? Eating meat? Burning oil? I really don't know.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Dame Ioreth
Grey Havens


Jun 7 2014, 3:15pm

Post #11 of 21 (118 views)
Shortcut
Yes, we do this too. [In reply to] Can't Post

I want my kids to know why things are offensive and why they affect people. That means they need to be exposed to the word, phrase, etc., and then given the reasons for not using it. I'm more uncomfortable around folks who skirt an issue or cover it up but I have found that my way of thinking makes more people uncomfortable so I end up self-censoring my non-censorship in order to rub along (which means I keep my mouth shut so my kids still have friends to play with).

The thought of censoring a book is something I can't contemplate. It is akin to putting a fig leaf on Michelangelo's David. At what point do we stop covering up? At what point do we say it should be banned? Words are an author's palette. Should we remove certain colors from paintings because they are too bright, too green too... offensive? I'm not saying I am never offended by an author/artist. I find some art work offensive but mine is not the only opinion and having a daughter in art school has given me a small bit of insight into the artist mind. Now I can try to understand even if it makes me uncomfortable, even if I don't like it.

Where there's life there's hope, and need of vittles.
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings






Annael
Half-elven


Jun 7 2014, 3:52pm

Post #12 of 21 (112 views)
Shortcut
the way we treat the environment [In reply to] Can't Post

as if there's no tomorrow . . . I'm pretty sure the people who live in "tomorrow" will have opinions about us re that.

To be sane we must recognize our beliefs as fictions.

- James Hillman, Healing Fiction

* * * * * * * * * *

NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967


Old Toby
Gondor


Jun 7 2014, 4:54pm

Post #13 of 21 (113 views)
Shortcut
Benedict Cumberbatch reads a letter from Kurt Vonnegut [In reply to] Can't Post

I decided to share this little gem with you all since the discussion in this thread talks about censorship of books etc. This was at a literary fair in the U.K. recently where Benedict read a letter written by Kurt Vonnegut in the '70's to a high school in North Dakota that had burned copies of his book Slaughterhouse Five. Mr. Vonnegut's letter is a real pleasure to hear...especially coming out of the mouth of Mr. Cumberbatch.

Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikSkfCusXRA

"Age is always advancing and I'm fairly sure it's up to no good." Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher)

(This post was edited by Old Toby on Jun 7 2014, 4:58pm)


Dame Ioreth
Grey Havens


Jun 7 2014, 7:07pm

Post #14 of 21 (102 views)
Shortcut
Wonderful! [In reply to] Can't Post

I have passed that on to my daughter. Her Senior Thesis for her BFA in Illustration was a collection of book covers for banned books. Add BC and Kurt Vonnegut to that and it makes gold for her!

Where there's life there's hope, and need of vittles.
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings






Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Jun 7 2014, 9:53pm

Post #15 of 21 (99 views)
Shortcut
I've read several 18-19th century books with such words... [In reply to] Can't Post

But I never connected them with the pejorative sense--thanks to my Webster's 1828 dictionary-- until much later. I have never had to read that specific word aloud though, except in the adverbial sense, which means miserly. In many cases, I saw that the correct, and spacial-temporally appropriate, use discouraged the perverted one. Reading about burning or collecting bundles of sticks, saw a decrease in the use of an unfounded and juvenile derogatory term. Similarly the correct use of the archaic terminology for a donkey, saw a decrease in the harassment of the women around me. However, I do understand your reticence to read that specific word. I'd never want to do it, myself!!

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jun 7 2014, 10:37pm

Post #16 of 21 (97 views)
Shortcut
N-words [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
But I never connected them with the pejorative sense--thanks to my Webster's 1828 dictionary-- until much later. I have never had to read that specific word aloud though, except in the adverbial sense, which means miserly.



The term that translates as miserly is a different word with a different spelling. It's just that it is pronounced so similarly that it is not safe to use in mixed company in this day and age. It is completely unrelated to the offensive N-word.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


CuriousG
Valinor


Jun 7 2014, 11:02pm

Post #17 of 21 (88 views)
Shortcut
Yeah, Tolkien uses "niggard" in LOTR [In reply to] Can't Post

which isn't offensive. The offensive n-word derived from "Negro" and has a different ending. As Otaku says, the two words sound too similar to use "niggard" in speech without it being confused.


Quote
‘No niggard are you, Éomer,’ said Aragorn, ‘to give thus to Gondor the fairest thing in your realm!’


Tolkien, J.R.R. (2012-02-15). The Lord of the Rings: One Volume (Kindle Locations 19527-19528). Houghton Mifflin Harcourt. Kindle Edition.


squire
Valinor


Jun 8 2014, 12:55am

Post #18 of 21 (92 views)
Shortcut
The Old Norse verb nigla = "to fuss about small matters" [In reply to] Can't Post

The coincidence of pronunciation has made niggard the nigger of the modern English dictionary. Not only is it spelled differently, its etymology derives from the Germanic language family not the Latin one. Not for the first time, our English language is at war with itself between its quite separate southern and northern European roots.

Thus, as in the subject line, niggard and niggardly come from nigla -- which has also given us the related word niggle (which Tolkien also famously favored, as in his short story about an overly-fussy and small-minded artist named Niggle).

Meanwhile nigger, like its more respectable cousin Negro, derives (via Spanish/Portuguese/French) from the Latin word niger=black.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


Eledhwen
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jun 8 2014, 11:23am

Post #19 of 21 (66 views)
Shortcut
Ian Fleming's "Live and Let Die" is another good example [In reply to] Can't Post

It's a story, after all, where the villain is a black gangster affiliated with the Russians (!) and it's incredibly of its time in the way it deals with Mr Big and his gang culture and black people in general. It's hard to read through the lens of the liberal 21st century, where we accept and celebrate difference and diversity., But for an English writer in the 50s, he was merely expressing what many people thought.

I'm glad that views have matured since then.

Storm clouds


squire
Valinor


Jun 8 2014, 11:11pm

Post #20 of 21 (47 views)
Shortcut
That book is oddly open-minded and closed-minded at once. [In reply to] Can't Post

Given that Fleming's villains were typically aristocratic Europeans, I've always wondered if he thought he was being 'liberal' to include a black American gangster in the pantheon of the Queen's enemies that Bond had to combat! (The same could be said for the Eurasian Dr. No, I suppose...)

Of course, given the racism that comes through in the actual writing, it's hard to say whether American and British Caribbean blacks really appreciated the honor, if any, that Fleming was according them. As to the unlikelihood of Mr. Big's SMERSH connections, I remember that many conservative whites suspected the Civil Rights movement of being tied to Soviet Communism, because of the divisions and disruptions that it seemingly was inflicting on America, and the rest of the West.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


Darkstone
Immortal


Jun 9 2014, 3:04pm

Post #21 of 21 (38 views)
Shortcut
And the opposite [In reply to] Can't Post

What will the future think of how we found certain words so objectionable?

(As with 19th century polite society substituting limb for leg, continuences for trousers, conveniences for underwear, physique for body, and glow for sweat.)

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”

 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.