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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
The Last Battle
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Beorn's Bees
Rivendell


Jun 5 2014, 10:48pm

Post #1 of 27 (477 views)
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The Last Battle Can't Post

Tolkien has referenced various times of a great 'final battle' to determine the fate of Arda. In the Silmarillion, it is said that the dwarves believe that after the Last Battle, they will help rebuild the world. Does Tolkien ever reference this subject in detail? What are your thoughts on the subject?


Meneldor
Tol Eressea


Jun 6 2014, 12:07am

Post #2 of 27 (331 views)
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The Dagor Dagorlad [In reply to] Can't Post

Someone gathered all the scattered clues into one thread about the Last Battle not too long ago. Have you tried the forum search function?

I'm wracking my brains trying to remember who wrote that....


They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters; These see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep.


Watcher
Registered User


Jun 6 2014, 1:54am

Post #3 of 27 (317 views)
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Dagor Dagorath [In reply to] Can't Post

http://newboards.theonering.net/...orum.cgi?post=709457


Faramir5
Bree


Jun 6 2014, 1:57am

Post #4 of 27 (302 views)
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Biblical connection... [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah I've come across this as well...and I believe it is a connection to the Bible. In the Bible, it says that Jesus will return to the world and lead an army of angels and saints to defeat Satan. This will also be the end of the world.

The Silmarillion is filled with similarities with the Bible (purposeful since Tolkien was a Christian). So that's how I view "the last battle". Also it is mentioned that the Ainur will once again make music at the end of times.


CuriousG
Valinor


Jun 6 2014, 4:20am

Post #5 of 27 (282 views)
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Thanks, Watcher! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


emre43
Lorien

Jun 6 2014, 9:25am

Post #6 of 27 (286 views)
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It's more a reference to the Norse Ragnarok [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Beorn's Bees
Rivendell


Jun 6 2014, 10:54am

Post #7 of 27 (277 views)
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Thank you! [In reply to] Can't Post

That was very interesting. So Turin becomes one of the Valar? Is there any other accounts of men or elves becoming a Vala?


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jun 6 2014, 3:43pm

Post #8 of 27 (265 views)
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Indeed. [In reply to] Can't Post

Ragnarok was what first occured to me; although, as a Catholic, Tolkien might have also had the Biblical Apocalypse in mind.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell


Jun 6 2014, 8:05pm

Post #9 of 27 (245 views)
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I never really viewed the Last Battle as a biblical allegory [In reply to] Can't Post

Often times, I see people relate Tolkien's writings to his faith. However, I don't see much Christian allegory in his legendarium.


True, there is religious allegory there, but to say that the Last Battle is similar to the Bible is really to say the Bible is similar to other religious texts. In other words, "last battles" are found in many religions, not just Christianity. There are elements found in all religions/myths and the battle of "good vs. evil" is a standard boilerplate theme. Floods, fallen angels, reincarnation, resurrection... these are themes in all religions/myths, so to find them in Tolkien's legendarium is not out of the ordinary. It has more to do with myth-making than Christianity.


SaulComposer
Rohan


Jun 6 2014, 8:32pm

Post #10 of 27 (250 views)
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This is not so accurate [In reply to] Can't Post

Even though the idea of a last battle is found in many different faiths, this doesn't negate the fact that the inspiration was religious and not so much mythical...

I'm no preacher or a politician…



ElendilTheShort
Gondor


Jun 6 2014, 11:35pm

Post #11 of 27 (236 views)
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if we can temporarily put the issue of belief or faith to one side so as not to offend people [In reply to] Can't Post

the main difference between mythology and religon is that what was once considered religon if no longer practised is called mythology.

Tolkiens mythology (never practised as religon) has elements of several mythologies as well as Christianity.


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Jun 7 2014, 4:34am

Post #12 of 27 (228 views)
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He doesn't become a Vala [In reply to] Can't Post

He fights alongside one, Eönwë, but never does he become one. The whole conception of the Dagor Dagorath is sketchy. We get the rough draft of what is in the online wikis, but then you have the unresolved issues of Ar-Pharazon's trapped army, the souls in the Hall of Mandos, and the gathering of the Silmarils. The whole story is slightly sketched and in many forms, so we are doing much more guessing than anything else when we discuss it.

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Jun 7 2014, 5:44am

Post #13 of 27 (256 views)
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just to say... (respectfully) [In reply to] Can't Post

 
eonwe is not a vala, but an ainu.

cheers : )

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Jun 7 2014, 12:15pm

Post #14 of 27 (212 views)
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True!! [In reply to] Can't Post

That's what I get for posting after midnight. Thank-you for catching that!!

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Jun 7 2014, 12:52pm

Post #15 of 27 (212 views)
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welll.... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
well...

at least you didn't let the cat out of the bag and say +you+ were a vala -- ooooops -- did i type that out loud? sorry for blowing you cover, rem!

cheers --


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


squire
Valinor


Jun 7 2014, 12:58pm

Post #16 of 27 (225 views)
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He's sort of a Maia [In reply to] Can't Post

At least, he is in the published Silmarillion:
Chief among the Maiar of Valinor whose names are remembered in the histories of the Elder Days are Ilmarë, the handmaid of Varda, and Eönwë, the banner-bearer and herald of Manwë, whose might in arms is surpassed by none in Arda. ("Valaquenta", Silmarillion, 30)

I have to admire that compilation of texts that speak of the Dagor Dagorath. It's fan fiction taken to the level of scholarship. My only quibble is that such a text may take off and acquire a kind of authority among Tolkien readers that isn't justified; as the compiler notes, Christopher Tolkien would blanch at the idea of writing up the Last Battle as if it "happened" in his father's legendarium.

CT himself was so uncertain about how to work with the unworkable device of the "recorder" of the Quenta Silmarillion (the lost English mariner Eriol aka Aelfwine who found the Elvish land and learned its "Lost Tales"), that he left the poor guy entirely out of the published Silmarillion. Eriol had a heck of a lot more provenance in those legends than the Last Battle did, but he's gone -- because JRRT could never figure out what exactly he meant in relation to such a tangled textual tradition. So the ephemeral Last Battle should be even more gone, so to speak, but now it apparently has risen from the dead and is being fought once more on the internet! Readers and fans, enjoy this clever and skillfully-assembled text if such things appeal to you, but beware of ascribing it to the unwitting and unwilling ghost of "J. R. R. Tolkien" despite it being compiled from the author's quotes!



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Jun 7 2014, 10:14pm

Post #17 of 27 (205 views)
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What!! *Thunder booms and lightning flashes*... [In reply to] Can't Post

*cough* *storm dissipates*

I don't know what you are talking about...Cool Sure, my name might mean silver-mesh, but that has NO connexion to Ulmo...Uh...Ulmo...I mean...Who's he? Blush

*incognito*

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


CuriousG
Valinor


Jun 7 2014, 10:46pm

Post #18 of 27 (190 views)
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He's not a Vala, he's really a dragon. [In reply to] Can't Post

Smaug, to be precise, and he likes to snack on ponies. Hmm, whose avatar includes ponies and should be a little bit worried about becoming snack food?


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Jun 7 2014, 11:06pm

Post #19 of 27 (180 views)
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your avatar [In reply to] Can't Post

 
just to say, your avatar looks like what my avatar eats.

hmmmmm.....?

cheers : )


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


CuriousG
Valinor


Jun 7 2014, 11:12pm

Post #20 of 27 (189 views)
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It's the circle of life. My forest ate Smaug. [In reply to] Can't Post

Just don't ask me how. (It's a Huorn-like thing.)


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Jun 7 2014, 11:15pm

Post #21 of 27 (185 views)
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i saw your subject header... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
...and i thought.,.."how?".....


what a silly question. . but it probably explains your golden color.


cheers- -

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 7 2014, 11:27pm

Post #22 of 27 (174 views)
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Third-age recycling???? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
It's the circle of life. My forest ate Smaug


Its all fun and games until Fealoki shows up anyway. At which point I'm going to act like a tree, and avoid any hints of BBQ sauce. (I suppose I could act like a tree and leave....but I'd hate to miss the fun.) Laugh

The next TORn Amateur Symposium is a special edition: the Jubilee TAS to celebrate 60 years of FOTR! If you have an LOTR idea you would like to write about, we'd love to see your writing featured there!








CuriousG
Valinor


Jun 7 2014, 11:38pm

Post #23 of 27 (175 views)
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Eats ponies and leaves [In reply to] Can't Post

I hate to be draggin' puns into our erudite halls, but I would like to assure you that you're not in any great danger: a Huorn's bark is worse than its bite.


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Jun 8 2014, 2:58am

Post #24 of 27 (160 views)
Shortcut
fealoki!!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

 
feaoloki!!! i love fealoki!

what wisdom and wit come from that dragon!

cheers!

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jun 9 2014, 2:49am

Post #25 of 27 (153 views)
Shortcut
*urg* [In reply to] Can't Post

Now, do you mean "Eats: ponies and leaves" or "Eats ponies, and leaves"?


Angelic


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I desired dragons with a profound desire"





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