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Curious
Half-elven
Feb 12 2008, 9:06am
Post #51 of 342
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It's not powerful if there's no ammo.
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If NL is generally blowing them off, the threat to prevent a $1B project from happening would be a powerful weapon for the Estate ...
Actually, any attempt to halt filming on The Hobbit should be decided pretty quickly, so we will find out quickly if the threat is empty. And there's always the threat Jackson used so well -- the threat to force New Line to open their books, and perhaps the books of parent Time-Warner as well.
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Elven
Valinor
Feb 12 2008, 10:56am
Post #53 of 342
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The biggest gripe I think the Tolkien estate have is that they have already been blocked from getting audits of the 'last two films' ... so they have tried previously to do this ... and now that the Hobbit has been announced, I think there was really a no win situation for New Line - they were damned if they do, damned if they dont go ahead with the Hobbit ... because either way, the Tolkien estate were owed money from the last films and they have a pretty big draw card in their agreement for the next films, which would see NL needing to make some decisions pretty fast.
It would be very interesting to see if those books will ever open, and more suprising (actually I'd eat my hat) if anything they delivered was even a close estimate to the actual figures. Those true figures are long gone, and the way they have acted in response to many of the requests doesn't imply a company of integrity with professional conduct or standards ... it would be interesting though, if some of this has come about becasue of estimatations of New Lines value and worth, especially if they were thinking of selling it ... more interesting still, and yet quite sickening, if the books were opened to reveal that PJ's settlement was a rip off too ..
NL are dealing with an Estate which knows what they are doing, and I still dont get the idea that this is a bluff, I think its quite serious this time around.
Amy Winehouse acquires Shire retreat for Summer ...
Amy Winehouse sells Shire retreat in Autumn ...
Tolkien was a Capricorn!
The Hobbit!!
Its a Happening Thing!!
Russell Crowe for Beorn
Sauruman: "Do know how the fan girls/boys first came into being? ... they were Tolkien scholars once ... Taken by the Dark Director, tempted to hold moots & dress up like Hobbits, Elves, Dwarves and Wizards ... A ruined & terrible form of life, not to mentions bad grades ... and now perfected at TORN ...
Whom do you serve!"
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Sunflower
Valinor
Feb 12 2008, 11:20am
Post #54 of 342
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"Calling Bucky Underbelly!"
It seems we REALLY need his thoughts on this now......every time some great big business issue comes up, any commentary by our resident industry expert is welcome:)
(ya know, if he started charging quarters for his industry nuggets of wisdom, I wouldn't mind dropping a couple in his hat)  
(This post was edited by Sunflower on Feb 12 2008, 11:21am)
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fryguy34167
The Shire
Feb 12 2008, 12:04pm
Post #56 of 342
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Actually, the rights will eventually revert to Tolkien's estate. See the following link: http://www.copylaw.com/new_articles/copyterm.html
Copyrights are not sold, they are rather assigned/lent by the Author to someone else. They do not exist in perpetuity.
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Peredhil lover
Valinor
Feb 12 2008, 12:11pm
Post #57 of 342
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At the first look, it sounds as if that's their purpose. But where's Saul Zaentz in this matter? Thinking a bit further - it's expressed that *New Line* shouldn't be allowed to make the movies, but it isn't said that there has to be *no movie* at all. This new lawsuit could delay the movie long enough for the NL rights to expire anyway. Or the end of NL is quickened and PJ will have to do it with Warner ... *clutches to straw*
But I am worried, that much I have to admit 
I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.
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Peredhil lover
Valinor
Feb 12 2008, 12:21pm
Post #59 of 342
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The question is, are we talking about the 28 or 56 years? The latter one is a few years away yet. And the former would have been long ago - why didn't they act at once? It's said there having to "live" with a bad deal, and properly paid, the Estate must make a lot of money. The movies have reawakened the interest in the books, anyway, so even without the money from NL they got a lot from this deal. And if NL would pay them what's their due, then they couldn't insist on this - that's no bad deal at all. At least that's my first impression about this.
I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.
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Peredhil lover
Valinor
Feb 12 2008, 12:25pm
Post #60 of 342
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It's getting more and more confusing - as usual when lawyers are involved *sigh*
I fear we will have to wait a bit for more information before knowing for sure what that is meaning
I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.
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fryguy34167
The Shire
Feb 12 2008, 12:45pm
Post #61 of 342
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I have been looking into this for the past hour now and from what I have gleaned, it would seem that the deal signed by Tolkien which assigned the rights to make films based upon the LOTR trilogy and The Hobbit included a requirement that Tolkien (now his estate) receive 7.5% of the gross profits from any films made. It could be and likely will be argued that New Line, by failing to pay up, has violated terms of the agreement and thus are in breach. I would assume that this is the basis upon which the estate and Harper Collins are sueing. It is possible that such breach could result in both monetary damages AND loss of the rights to make films based upon Tolkien's works.
The ownership could revert to the Tolkien estate or to Zaentz. Not sure how this one will turn out without more information but it is possible that Tolkien's estate could recover their film rights. The question here is does New Line's breach of contract also constitute a breach of contract by Zaentz against the estate? I would think that argument actually might carry some weight. Should that happen the movie will not likely be made for a long time as Tolkien's son Christopher has long held the view that film was not an effective medium for his father's material and zealously protected the integrity of his father's works.
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Curious
Half-elven
Feb 12 2008, 1:20pm
Post #62 of 342
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Sure, the suit is serious. But
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I don't see how filming The Hobbit harms the Tolkien Estate in a way that can't ultimately be remedied with money.
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Sunflower
Valinor
Feb 12 2008, 1:21pm
Post #63 of 342
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See my "....Zaentz" post above.
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Now that the lawsuit is formally named, not "The Tolkien Estate" or "Descendants Of" or anything like that, but good ol' Christopher T. vs New Line, my suspicions are confirmed.
My sentiments from my previous post remain intact.
Would it be too soon to start flooding them with (polite) letters?
Only half j/k at this point....
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fryguy34167
The Shire
Feb 12 2008, 1:33pm
Post #64 of 342
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Actually there are several members of the tolkien family listed in addition to harper collins.
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Sunflower
Valinor
Feb 12 2008, 1:39pm
Post #65 of 342
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See my "Zaentz" post above.
With his name on it, it all comes together now. Curious, this isn't about money for Christopher T. This is about his still-seething anger that LOTR was desecrated, and he is in this mostly for the means to prevent further defiling of his father's work. He's like a Crusader marching on Jerusalem at this point.
Hate to say it, but if this is the case I only hope there's split in the family, like the split in the family that (reportedly) allowed the Wall Street Journal to go to Citizen Murdoch. An ugly thought, but there you go.
I just hope he knows how bitter, angry, and heartbroken he will make many,many millions of fans of his father's works around the world, if he persists in his desire to kill the films. Knowledge that the films were coming is the only bright spot in a world full of darkness right now, and getting darker every day. WHY can't he understand that these films mean so much to people, and make us love the books all the more?
Does anyone find it suspicious that if this really WAS triggered by the news that NL was going to be dissolved, he could have filed the suit last week or 2 weeks ago? NL news has been around a few days now. But NO, he waits until the very DAY that we have irrefutable proof that the writer's strike was finally over, and an official green-lighting of the project, a christening with a director's announcement, which could have come within 2 weeks....
(This post was edited by Sunflower on Feb 12 2008, 1:43pm)
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Sunflower
Valinor
Feb 12 2008, 1:47pm
Post #66 of 342
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Yes, but why does it have the title it is listed with?
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They may be listed, but the title of the suit is not "Tje Tolkien Trust", it's "Christopher Rauel T vs"
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entmaiden
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Feb 12 2008, 1:56pm
Post #67 of 342
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You're wrong about Christopher Tolkien
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He has never said anything about the movies that Peter Jackson made. I don't think it's fair to attribute so much venom to him.
Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.
`Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.
NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows
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fryguy34167
The Shire
Feb 12 2008, 2:01pm
Post #68 of 342
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You need to look up the actual court case. Chirstopher Tolkien et al vs. New Line Cinema Corp. Listed plaintiffs against New Line include (listed in order):
GEORGE ALLEN & UNWIN (PUBLISHERS) LTD. - Plaintiff/Petitioner
HARPERCOLLINS PUBLISHERS LTD. - Plaintiff/Petitioner
POULTER ALAN GRAHAM - Plaintiff/Petitioner
TOLKIEN BAILLIE JEAN - Plaintiff/Petitioner
TOLKIEN CHRISTOPHER REUEL - Plaintiff/Petitioner
TOLKIEN JOAN ANNE REUEL - Plaintiff/Petitioner
TOLKIEN MICHAEL GEORGE REUEL - Plaintiff/Petitioner
TOLKIEN PRISCILLA MARY ANNE REUEL - Plaintiff/Petitioner
TOLKIEN SIMON MARIO REUEL - Plaintiff/Petitioner
UNWIN HYMAN LTD. - Plaintiff/Petitioner
I must say I am more than a bit taken aback by your stance against Christopher Tolkien attempting to regain what was essentially stolen from his family back in the late 1960's. It was bought for a song and not sold willingly. I have always been a firm supporter of artists being able to retain the copyrights for their created works. So many film, recording and publishing companies have taken advantage of artists over the years leaving them destitute while these companies reaped tremendous profits. Christopher Tolkien has been a god-send to all of his late father's fans by publishing so many of his father's works posthumously that I would think as a fan of Tolkien he deserves your support, not your vehemence.
Would I like to see a movie of the Hobbit made someday? Yes I would. But I would like to see it made with the blessing and cooperation of Tolkien's heirs rather than with none of their input and over their objections.
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orcbane
Gondor
Feb 12 2008, 2:45pm
Post #69 of 342
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The backstory to this is fascinating in a way, but I am tempted to say 'morbidly'. Others have already hinted at or mentioned the idea of a story being made out of this legal/monetary wrangling over the remaining writings of JRRT. But who would own the rights to such a story ? Maybe it could be a fantasy and include Ronald coming back to life at some point and hitting the talk-show rounds. Maybe he could bring some other famous lawyers with him from the other side. Perhaps Honest Abe and Gu Fang Ho (Gengis Khan's top legal advisor).
The Lotr films were such a delight in how they surprised me & turned out so well. And they had a quaintly pleasing element in how the makers, crew and cast all worked together so well.
What a change in the environment the success has brought. What a farce it is.
I tend to blame PJ ultimately. It was that scene with Legolas skateboarding down the steps at Helm's Deep. It was the queer moment I believe, that all the susequent queerness comes from. But he did not do it maliciously. Just one step to far. Too bad!
 
An Ent juggling spikey things ?
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deej
Tol Eressea
Feb 12 2008, 3:13pm
Post #70 of 342
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The cast has sued New Line to get their fair share from merchandise and dvd sales; PJ has sued them because they wouldn't open their books. Now the Tolkien estate is suing. So either the studio has some REALLY bad accountants working for them, or they are greedy b*****ds. I'm leaning toward the latter answer.
(This post was edited by deej on Feb 12 2008, 3:14pm)
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Peredhil lover
Valinor
Feb 12 2008, 3:57pm
Post #71 of 342
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Just looked it up at Wikipedia - there they say what I seem to remember - Zaentz sued New Line, too, about his share in profits. And wasn't there the news some time ago here on TORn that some of the minor actors were suing, too, about their share on action figures or something along this line? With all respect to their initial merits in making the movies possible, all these lawsuits are making New Line look pretty suspect, IMO.
I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.
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Tolkien Forever
Gondor
Feb 12 2008, 4:02pm
Post #72 of 342
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In a world full of darkness?
Well come on now, this is just a fantasy movie, that's all........ I earestly pray it won't really be the case in any of our lives - there's so much else beyond Middle-Earth out there, & I've been studying Tolkien's works longer than some of you have been alive (not a haughty statement, just a fact).
The person who posted about Tolkien selling the rights for $10,000 in the 60's was spot-on. 'Cash' was JRRT's motive.
It's a riot reading Tolkien's Letter # 210 on that cartoon movie that was planned as he tears apart every change that the writer made from the book. One can imagine his commentary on Peter Jackson:
'The Balrog, to begin with, was not 25 to 30 feet tall, but, like Sauron, of Man size but greater. Secondly, 'J' seems to have somehow gotten the idea that a creature that was entombed in rock for nearly 55 centuries before being dug out by the Dwarves in their search for Mithril has suddenly developed the ability to break through stone at will.'
If you think I'm exagerating, read the Letter, it's quite entertaining.
Tolkien, in fact, takes a rather negative view on any chages in his work, from translations that change slight wordings, to pictures on the cover that don't make sense to commentaries about him & his work that are inaccurate & feels the need to say so at all times.
It appears his son Christopher has inherited this trait. And while I enjoyed TLOR films & eagerly await The Hobbit movie (plural, though I don't really get why 2 films are needed except the big $$$ reason), the fact is that PJ did take serious liberties with the 'essence' of many characters in TLOR & I can see how this upset many 'purists' & CT in particular.As
i've been through those various specifics before, I won't bother now, but, PJ may be reaping what he has sown, plain & simple . Had he kept the character's personalities truer to the book, perhaps there'd be no problems now.
However, maybe it is all just money.
Finally, though I'd like to see Ian & Christopher return, i think in time we'd get used to another actor in place. Look at Dumbledore, although 'Harry Potter' is poor fare compared to Tolkien's work........
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deej
Tol Eressea
Feb 12 2008, 4:09pm
Post #73 of 342
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I think I may sue New Line as well.
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Just because.
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Annael
Immortal
Feb 12 2008, 4:09pm
Post #74 of 342
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We loved Bob Shaye back in the day for being the one who said "clearly there should be three films, not two."
.We do not see things as they are, we see them as we are.
- Anais Nin
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
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Peredhil lover
Valinor
Feb 12 2008, 4:10pm
Post #75 of 342
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Yes, for depriving us of the Hobbit 
I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.
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