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entmaiden
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Feb 12 2008, 1:04am
Post #26 of 342
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That doesn't terminate Zaentz's rights
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so I wonder what would happen if New Line's rights were terminated? They might not automatically revert to the Estate.......
Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.
`Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.
NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows
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grammaboodawg
Immortal
Feb 12 2008, 1:12am
Post #27 of 342
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It would stand to reason that New Line would have treated other contractual agreements the same as they did the director's. It seems to have been common practice for them when they were smaller and could possibly play hide and seek with others. But once they had this HUGE success and started dealing with people who expect them to make good their promise; well, you reap what you sow.
I'm just hoping beyond hope they've learned their lesson and just play nice.
What a mess.
 
Trust him... The Hobbit is coming!
"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."
TORn's Observations Lists
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Curious
Half-elven
Feb 12 2008, 1:18am
Post #28 of 342
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I don't see how this would stop The Hobbit.
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That seems like an empty threat to me. Any contractual disputes can be remedied with money damages, so how can proceeding with The Hobbit do the Tolkien Estate any harm?
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Feb 12 2008, 1:37am
Post #29 of 342
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Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea
Feb 12 2008, 1:46am
Post #30 of 342
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I don't think Tolkien Enterprise (Zaents' little shindig) sold the rights to make the Hobbit/LOTR directly *to* NL, and just "lent" it to them, or something like that. So if NL does go down the drain, wouldn't those rights just go back to Zaents, rather than the Estate?
My LJ
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Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea
Feb 12 2008, 1:49am
Post #31 of 342
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But like, Saruman. You know, once good and fair, but then got too greedy for power and dug his own grave?
Yea. NL is my Saruman. *nods* Though I wonder... does that make Warner Bros Sauron? ;P
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Tolkien Forever
Gondor
Feb 12 2008, 2:07am
Post #32 of 342
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Elven writes:
'They (The Tolkien Estate) seems fairly confident when they go into these things'
These things?
How many lawsuits are they involved in?
As I said when folks were freaking out over PJ & New Line's fight, "Money talks & BS walks"......
In other words, there's just too much $$$$ to be made in a Hobbit movie for either side to pull the plug, so rest easy.
If the report that The Tolkien Estate is owed 7.5% of $6 Billion is correct, then they should be looking for $450 Million, not $150 Million, so obviously not both reports are completely accurate.......
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Altaira
Superuser
Feb 12 2008, 2:16am
Post #33 of 342
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That was my first thought when I read that
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As I understand it, the rights to make The Hobbit would have reverted back to Zaentz had New Line let their option expire. And, didn't Zaentz say if and when he gets the rights back he'd go with PJ all the way? It would be a delay for sure, but it certainly wouldn't preclude it being made.
I'd love to know how much say the Tolkien Estate has (or doesn't have) in the making of The Hobbit, since the rights were origianlly sold to Zaentz. Perhaps there's some clause that would halt or delay production if there were any ongoing monetary or legal disputes.
The plot most definitely thickens! 
Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.
"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower
"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase
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ArathornJax
Lorien
Feb 12 2008, 2:25am
Post #34 of 342
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As reported on the OneRing.Net
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http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2006/11/23/24050-saul-zaentz-on-the-hobbit-2/
What is with the long anticipated Hobbit-adaption?
A: It will definitely be shot by Peter Jackson. The question is only when. He wants to shoot another movie first. Next year the Hobbit-rights will fall back to my company. I suppose that Peter will wait because he knows that he will make the best deal with us. And he is fed up with the studios: to get his profit share on the rings trilogy he had to sue New Line. With us in contrast he knows that he will be paid fairly and artistically supported without reservation.
I don't think that the Estate will get back the movie rights as I believe it is what they are after (along with some return from the movies). Zaentz owns the rights and will fight for it. Wouldn't that be a scene, in this corner Christopher R. Tolkien and in this corner Saul Zaentz. This fight is scheduled for 2 rounds at twenty seconds each due to the advance age of both participants. . .
Let us then be up and doing
With a heart for any fate;
Still achieving, still pursuing,
Learn to labor and to wait.
H.W. Longfellow
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Feb 12 2008, 2:30am
Post #35 of 342
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That seems like an empty threat to me. Any contractual disputes can be remedied with money damages, so how can proceeding with The Hobbit do the Tolkien Estate any harm?
I am really having a hard time figuring out upon what basis they are asking for that kind of injunctive relief. Unfortunately the only way to find out would be to look at the Complaint, and the Los Angeles Superior Court apparently charges to view recently filed documents (and I don't want to know that badly). Hopefully someone will post a copy of the Complaint somewhere.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
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Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea
Feb 12 2008, 2:32am
Post #36 of 342
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I blame you for this, diedye. Wasted a whole 20 minutes of my life ;)
BS = Bob Shaye
ML = Michael Lynne
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Altaira
Superuser
Feb 12 2008, 2:35am
Post #37 of 342
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Thanks for digging that up, AJ!
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Oh to be a fly on the wall during any conversations between Zaentz and the Tolkien Estate right about now, huh?
It will be interesting to see what, if any, legs the Tolkien Estate has to stand on to back up that kind of threat.
Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.
"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower
"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase
TORn Calendar
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Tolkien Forever
Gondor
Feb 12 2008, 3:34am
Post #38 of 342
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It's all so pointless....
The Hobbit will be made - remember last year when there was never going to be a Hobbit film because PJ & New Line were at each other's throats?
Tolkien's Family doesn't even own the rights to the movie & hasn't since the 70's.
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Sunflower
Valinor
Feb 12 2008, 5:14am
Post #39 of 342
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ROFL! On second thought, I mean....Zeantz?
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I don't know whether to laugh, cry, throw up my hands, curse ALL PARTIES out, scream, stock up the popcorn, or keep my fingernails permanently cut to the bone so I won't be able to bite them anymore.
Leave it to you, ArathornJax, to put a humorous face on what is to me a situation growing uglier by the day.
Yes, that was my first ugly thought.....Christopher T. rubbing his hands in glee, saying, "NOW I finally have the way to keep my father's works from being further desecrated!" He still hates the fact that LOTR was ever made put on film. And now he figures that God has given him a way to stop the "blasphemers" in their tracks. Payback, as it were.
I hope Adam Tolkien does not have the same close-mindedness. I hope his father has not successfully "indoctrinated" him. You know, they're his family, and I respect them, and yes, these ARE Tolkien's stories and it IS their decision to do what they please. We are incredibly lucky to have the LOTR films, IMO.
But this "holier than thou" attitude can only go so far. I HOPE the attitude here is not, "Well, we can kill two birds with one stone. Once we get our $150 million or whatever it is, that'll be enough money to keep The Estate in shop for a pretty long while, so that we won';t NEED any income from further film adaptations in a decade or generation or so." That may be true, for now, but it's a very narrow-minded view of the world. Certainly more narrow-minded than Tolkien himself had or would have had today.
In this post-literary age, there is no guarantee that a generation or 50 yrs from now a bored and fickle public (who DO NOT read for leisure) would keep enough books flying out of stores to sustain a large income forever. And if they think that they can put a kibosh on future adaptations, that would be an EXTREMELY unwise move.
Most successful novels get adapted into films sooner or later. Heck, make that ALL. Starting with every 19th-century classic ever written. It would be STUPID of them to think that they are so special, that they can avoid this fate. Is Tolkien greater than Dickens? Or Victor Hugo? Or Lewis Carroll or any other Literary Great? Or Joyce, Hemingway, Adlous Huxley or George Orwell? All those great books have been adapted to film. And all the better for the books! And IMO, they should consider themselves DARNED LUCKY that their adaptations have been so great, faithful to the spirit, if not the letter, of the books...., and that artistically, things look just as good for The Hobbit. For many, even better this time around. WHY can't he get it through his head that there are those of us who love his father's works ALL THE MORE for having had such great film adaptations?
They seem to think they can win this lawsuit, b/c it's like the vultures picking over the carcass of a dying animal at this point. NL is Persona Non Grata these days. And the other suits have been pretty successful. They seem confident that they'll get back the rights. But what if NL goes bankrupt, the company is dissolved, Zaentz is still alive and kicking, and he tunrs the rights over to Warner's to avoid having the Tolkien Estate get them?
I think a modest income, yes, but after reading this, Methinks even Christopher has been lured by the power of the R...I mean, the Silmaril...I mean, ...well, they sure DO care about money now. Peculiar, ain't it?
A question: If Zaentz passes away before all this is settled, does "his estate" keep the rights? Does he have an heir designated? Or with his death, would the rights revert back to the Estate? It;s my one great fear. And if they succeed, I hope the elder generation realizes that there are those in the family who approve very much of the films, not just b/c of their artistic merit, but how much they have raised the Estate's profile..and, oh yes, that little word.....profits. I'd hate to see a split develop in the family in any way.
I hope Kristen Thompson is taking notes....at this rate, we could be writing a novel about the pre-production!
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ArathornJax
Lorien
Feb 12 2008, 5:21am
Post #40 of 342
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Money talks and in the end, I will be that Time Warner settles with the Tolkien Estate. As far as rights to the movie, that won't happen as they are owned by Saul Zaentz through his company Tolkien Enterprises.
J.R.R. wrote to his son Christopher about making movies in Sept. 1957 that " In a letter Tolkien wrote to his son Christopher in September 1957, he said he had been approached by several people to make a movie based on The Lord of the Rings. " Stanley U(nwin) and I have agreed on our policy: Art or Cash," he said."
As the movie never materialized, Tolkien sold the movie rights to United Artists in the 1960's for $10,000 I believe to pay off a tax debt. Eventually Saul Zaentz purchased the movie rights in the 1970's from MGM and has had them ever since. Zaentz has a deal with New Line and MGM for a specific period of time and when that time runs out, based on his comments that I posted earlier, it looks like the rights to the movie revert back to Saul Zaentz.
The legal point here is that J.R.R. Tolkien sold the rights back in 1966 (might be 1969, but 1966 sounds right to me). As such Saul Zaentz holds the rights and has paid for them legally. As such if the estate has an issue with profits, that issue is with the distributor of the LOTR films, which is New Line. Are they owed money? I don't know without seeing the document, and as has been mentioned, I'm not paying to see it (the wife will kill me). Do I think they are owed money? Probably. Will it get paid? Yep, and quick. Time Warner is going to do some merging with New Line and absorb some of their films (and I would guess they will do this with The Hobbit and the sequel) and I will be in 6 months to a year you'll see a settlement. Will that stop production. It may delay it, but I don't think it will stop it. It could mean though that Del Torro is not available or that PJ becomes available. I do think this is the death toll for Shaye and company at New Line though.
Bottom line is money talks in our society and in our world, even with the estate, or why the law suit(to some point; the estate has really tried to preserve the artistic legacy of their father/grandfather)? J.R.R. took the "cash" over "art" and the estate has earned millions off the trilogy PJ put out in new book sales and by bringing in new fans to the base (a good conversation would be would The Children of Hurin 1. have been published without the resurgence from PJ's movies and 2. even if it was published would it have sold as well without the trilogy?). The estate will get a legal settlement (and more money), the two movies will eventually be made, and everyone will move on to the next project with more money in either their corporate pockets or in the estate's pockets.
As far as Zaentz goes (he turns 87 on the 28th of this very month) I don't know his will but I would assume that when J.R.R. sold to pay his tax debt, he sold the rights forever. So whoever is in line to be Zaentz's heir, will receive those rights. If it is an individual, his family or a corporation that is not known as far as I have been able to find. I would assume, it would go to one of his heirs, but I haven't found if he even has a family.
Let us then be up and doing
With a heart for any fate;
Still achieving, still pursuing,
Learn to labor and to wait.
H.W. Longfellow
(This post was edited by ArathornJax on Feb 12 2008, 5:30am)
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Sunflower
Valinor
Feb 12 2008, 5:24am
Post #41 of 342
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On Pg. 21 of "The Frodo Franchise", Kristen Thompson has a detailed chart of LOTR's cinematic origions. I'm wondering what the Hobbit's chart will look like! Probably like the geneology of the Numenorean Kings in the parody "Bored Of The Rings"...
I think I may have to start keeping a chart....
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Sunflower
Valinor
Feb 12 2008, 5:38am
Post #42 of 342
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Sure, when Christopher Lee is gone (and even if Del Toro were announced tomorrow and casting begun, that is my great fear--the 2nd film will be eviscerated without him) , when Del Toro has been forced to move on to other things, when Ian McKellan is approaching the current age of Lee, ditto Howard Shore--he is at the peak of his powers now; there' s no guarantee that may last-- and PJ's schedule makes it impossible to shoot until 2014.
I'm a pretty patient person, we fans have all been patient, but with the artistic stars aligning up so perfectly now, we are in a period where the constellations may not ever be so right again.
My patience is starting to really crack, and I fear that even Gramma's mail-shirt of Optimism may have to be newly forged with mithril, to get us through this.
(This post was edited by Sunflower on Feb 12 2008, 5:39am)
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Sunflower
Valinor
Feb 12 2008, 5:46am
Post #44 of 342
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I hope "The Tolkien Estate" *cough* understands this fact....
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That at this point, if they think they can keep the films from being made, a LOT of fans worldwide would be P.O', too....even those who respect them....
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Peredhil lover
Valinor
Feb 12 2008, 6:09am
Post #45 of 342
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Completely forgot that Zaentz holds the rights and that they'd revert back to him if NL doesn't make the movies very soon. Yes, he didn't sell them forever, only for a certain time. Serves me right for posting in the wee hours of the morning - I woke up in the middle of the night and couldn't go back to sleep, so I went to my laptop. But 1:00 am or so isn't my best time for logical thinking 
Anyway, that seems to weaken the claim of Tolkien Estate. Hm ... I'm not sure what to think just now, but one thing is clear - this will be quite an exciting time. My only fear is that this new complication will delay filming so much that Ian McKellen and Christopher Lee aren't able to resume their roles. They don't get any younger, after all.
I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.
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Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea
Feb 12 2008, 7:11am
Post #46 of 342
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That both are very, very healthy- I don't want a Dumbledore for either of them.
And, of course, I don't want them to die because they are wickedly cool people. *nod*
Though honestly, I don't mind them pushing the date back for the Hobbit release for a couple more years. More of a chance for me to save up the money needed for a trip to NZ during the premiere ;)
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Feb 12 2008, 7:35am
Post #47 of 342
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The idea of the date being pushed back is terifying to me
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For we who have waited long with a desperate desire. . . this is a horrid cloud. But I hold out hope. TW stands to make an easy 1 to two billion, more probably, when inflation is considered, so I think they will settle up that 150 and quick. If it means getting the films made on track, I would be happy to support an online campaign for fans, internationally, to donate small amounts to SEND to WB to help cover the fees. WHatever, just make the movies, and get them right!
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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Peredhil lover
Valinor
Feb 12 2008, 7:53am
Post #48 of 342
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If not for Ian and Christopher, I could wait, too. Better a bit longer and the perfect movie than a rushed one with too much mistakes. But I can't imagine Gandalf and Saruman played by other actors; they were both perfect, and it would not be the same. We'll have to wish for them at least Dumbledore's age, if not movie-Dumbledore's fate
Though I can so understand why you wouldn't mind a bit of delay. It would be great to be in NZ in this time, and I wish you the best of luck for that!
I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.
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Peredhil lover
Valinor
Feb 12 2008, 7:56am
Post #49 of 342
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Why should we donate money for a company who's making billions with the Harry Potter movies and merchandise? They man now try to cut off some not so profitable parts of their imperium, but that doesn't mean that they are wallowing in poverty, believe me.
I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.
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