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Ziggy Stardust
Gondor
Jun 4 2014, 2:53am
Post #1 of 36
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Were the Blue Wizards Twins?
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I've always wondered about this. I know Alatar and Pallando are shrouded in mystery. Considering they are both named the Blue Wizards, I have to ask: were they possibly twins? Or siblings of some sort?
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DaughterofLaketown
Gondor
Jun 4 2014, 3:34am
Post #2 of 36
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I know nothing about them but will be eagerly waiting to see what others will weigh in.
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(This post was edited by DaughterofLaketown on Jun 4 2014, 3:35am)
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jun 4 2014, 3:34am
Post #3 of 36
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They (like Gandalf, Saruman, and Radagast) were "maia" spirits, or lesser angels, who were sent to Middle Earth on assignment. As far as we know, maiar (plural of maia) did not have family relationships in the sense that Elves, Men, and Dwarves did.
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Jun 4 2014, 1:17pm
Post #4 of 36
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I would also add that, in my opinion, it's not a given that the wizards were actually blue. I think this text [the Blue Wizard text] is just more well known than the later letter in which Tolkien says that he doubts thay had distinctive colours.
I made the word 'later' blue for irony 
Of course then one gets into that pesky subjective 'canon' issue: text versus a letter for example, earlier text versus later letterian text, more detailed text versus less detailed letterian text, Tolkien's memory.
It's easy to call them the Blue Wizards, for reference... but so far I can't find Tolkien calling them this after the letter. He refers to them in late texts as the other two.
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Arannir
Valinor
Jun 4 2014, 1:21pm
Post #5 of 36
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I guess they were brothers in thought... approaching their "mission" in a similar way and therefore chosing the same colour and potentially a similar "human" shape.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 4 2014, 1:34pm
Post #6 of 36
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yes, were they twins?
did they like to play pranks?
did they open a joke shop?
i suspect much.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jun 4 2014, 1:55pm
Post #7 of 36
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I'm betting sesquizygotic twins. /
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******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Jun 4 2014, 1:57pm)
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Meneldor
Valinor
Jun 4 2014, 3:27pm
Post #8 of 36
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Ah yes, sesquizygotism! Fascinating theory, DS.
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...and my dictionary fails me again.
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters; These see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep.
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Ziggy Stardust
Gondor
Jun 5 2014, 2:58am
Post #9 of 36
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Like Fred and George Weasley. I guess it's possible, although according to Unfinished Tales, they might have started a cult.  They certainly are mysterious.
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Ziggy Stardust
Gondor
Jun 5 2014, 3:02am
Post #10 of 36
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This sounds like a good theory, but
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what does sesquizygotic mean? 
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QuackingTroll
Valinor
Jun 5 2014, 7:54am
Post #12 of 36
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Why not? There's got to be SOMEONE in Middle-earth that way inclined. Why not these guys?
Expanding on that thought, there are an awful lot of celibate men in M-E and yet all the women wind up getting married. I suppose this stems from Tolkien's Christian values which then suggests that maybe no-one in Middle-earth is gay?
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Escapist
Gondor
Jun 5 2014, 8:08am
Post #13 of 36
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until they end up dead in a tragic way (well about half of them, it seems).
I get the feeling that available females may have been a little bit scarce. This could make sense given the hostile nature of the world of Middle Earth much of the time and the fact that women do not seem generally encouraged to learn how to defend themselves. It adds up.
We do only see the nobility (for the most part). Even among hobbits we get to see things through fabulously rich and famous (infamous?) Bilbo Baggins and his heir (and hi heir's servant and relatives from the rich and famous Tooks and Brandybucks). We also don't really see them at home, most of the time. We see them on the road and facing great peril. We don't even get an idea what exactly Bilbo and Frodo have as a profession. I always suspected there could be some kind of religious element involved since I remember something about Tolkien removing such material. I also have strangely imagined the Bagginses as accountants - but that is probably just a wild yarn with no credibility to it. Or maybe he literally was a burglar by profession and Tolkien kind of white-washed that a bit? The point is that if we don't have clarity on something like this, then it leaves a lot of grey area open, in my opinion.
The point is that I don't think it is easy to draw too many conclusions about sexuality across Middle Earth. Even the epic love story of Aragorn and Arwen is relegated to an appendix. How easily could any other romances of any kind be just sitting under the surface in a similar way? Just by reading the main story without the appendices, you could almost miss Aragorn + Arwen!
If all the world's a stage then who's writing the script?
(This post was edited by Escapist on Jun 5 2014, 8:17am)
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Kalimac
Bree
Jun 5 2014, 12:36pm
Post #15 of 36
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I think you could certainly make a pretty good argument for this. I'm pretty sure that both Alatar and Pallando were servants of Orome, so it's likely that they were of a similar disposition.
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Ziggy Stardust
Gondor
Jun 5 2014, 8:09pm
Post #16 of 36
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I think you have a point. Just cause someone is gay, doesn't mean they're bad people. All human beings (and wizards) are capable of morals and values. Look at Saruman and Gandalf. They could be asexual (nothing wrong with that) and both ended up differently. Gandalf being kind and wise, guiding Frodo and the Fellowship, and Saruman who became corrupt, obsessed with power, and basically sided with Sauron. It's what's on the inside that counts.
As for the women getting married, and men remaining celibate in ME, I'd never really noticed. I'm not sure it has to do with Christian values (cause in come Christian values, the women are celibate). If anything, I think it's referring to historical society. If you look back in history, there are more celibate male historical figures then there are female.
You are right though about several female characters in ME being married. But there are two female characters that come to mind who were not married: Nellas the Elf, and Haleth.
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Ziggy Stardust
Gondor
Jun 5 2014, 8:10pm
Post #17 of 36
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It could be possible that Allatar and Pallando were associated with water, sky and or winds, especially if they were servants of Orome.
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Ziggy Stardust
Gondor
Jun 5 2014, 8:13pm
Post #18 of 36
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Interesting picture as accountants
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This gives me an idea for another post. Oddly enough, I've always pictured Frodo at least, as a sort of troubadour. He spent alot of time outside, often was writing poems (maybe songs?) and it was said he had a good singing voice.
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jun 5 2014, 9:22pm
Post #19 of 36
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Let's see: Aragorn, Faramir, Éomer, and Sam all married. Elrond, Denethor, and Théoden were previously married, and Treebeard mourned the loss of his Entwife. We don't know about Merry and Pippin, Legolas, Gimli, or the Dúnedain, although most of the Dúnedain probably married, since their line survives.
So that leaves Frodo and Bilbo as known perennial bachelors. Anyone else?
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Escapist
Gondor
Jun 5 2014, 9:27pm
Post #20 of 36
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And after writing that post, it occurred to me that maybe in Middle Earth people didn't specialize so narrowly.
I suppose that a person in Middle Earth who was lettered, well traveled, and friends with important people like elves and men could find many ways to be useful to others. I suppose that the accounting thing came around from working with dwarves and an assumption that being well lettered could lead naturally to being ready to arrange some basic numbers for other people. But mostly it was just weird and I realize this. I think a troubadour / writer / historian would fit more.
If all the world's a stage then who's writing the script?
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Na Vedui
Rohan
Jun 5 2014, 11:49pm
Post #21 of 36
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weren't married when they went away with Frodo & Sam. But they did marry later (I think it's in the Appendices to LOTR - family trees etc). Pippin married Diamond of Long Cleeve (& one of his sons was named after Faramir) and Merry married Estella Bolger, sister of Fatty Bolger. So that's two accounted for.
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jun 5 2014, 11:58pm
Post #22 of 36
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So that leaves really only Gimli and Legolas, who apparently did remain bachelors as long as we know (and keep the slash crowd entertained). Not so many celibate males, after all.
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Jun 6 2014, 12:00am)
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Na Vedui
Rohan
Jun 6 2014, 12:51am
Post #23 of 36
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have a profession. It's pretty clear to me from the way they are presented that they are gentlemen of leisure, with a private income from inherited family wealth. Think Jane Austen sort of people - the minor gentry rather than Darcy, who is at the much higher end of the wealth spectrum. (The Shire is very like 18-19th century England minus most of the Industrial Revolution). Often such people did as Bilbo & Frodo do, and occupied themselves with study and creative activities - history, poetry and so on.
Bilbo's mother Belladonna Took certainly had considerable money (some of it was used in building Bag End, a very des. res.).
The impression I have is that the Tooks and the Brandybucks are more "upper class/old money" with long-established wealth (they have a long history of being dominant families in the Shire and Buckland respectively & have old-established homes where a lot of the family live together in a clannish sort of way); but that the Bagginsess are more "middle-class" that have moved up the social scale fairly recently, so they are likely to have been rich farmers or successful tradesmen or had some kind of well-paid profession before that. Perhaps Bilbo's father still did. And their relations the Sackville-Bagginsess were still making their money by growing tobacco..
So Bilbo almost certainly inherited money from both parents; at any rate he doesn't need to work, nor does Frodo, since Bilbo adopted him. It's clear that they (and Merry and Pippin ) can just push off into the blue without leaving behind any kind of occupational havoc.
Sam is different. He's "working-class" and definitely has a job, as gardener and odd-jobs man at Bag End.
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Escapist
Gondor
Jun 6 2014, 1:24am
Post #24 of 36
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I have never read Jane Austen.
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There is a lot that we really don't know for sure which makes something like this fun to speculate on a bit.
Did Bilbo's wealth (including Bag End) have something possibly to do with the fabulous Belladonna Took who may have even had adventures of her own? It is hard to know for certain.
I couldn't find the reference for the S.B. profession in tobacco. It wouldn't be hard for me to miss, though.
I don't mind tossing ideas about, but I am careful to admit my lack of confidence in many of them, actually.
I would think that if a lettered and numbered gentry man were offered some money to help pen a letter or check over some sums, they may oblige if they felt in the mood? Certainly, if a gentleman of leisure took a shining towards any kind of profession, who could tell them they couldn't do it?
We do see evidence for the writing and attention to history for certain. Perhaps that is all they busied themselves with entirely, perhaps not. I do still think that if you go deeply enough down the rabbit (er hobbit) hole, you will find some questions about it. Maybe I just need to read more ... Jane Austen?
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Ruxendil_Thoorg
Tol Eressea
Jun 6 2014, 1:45am
Post #25 of 36
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then, being the Maiar they are, they would be siblings in the thought of Iluvatar, in the way that some of the Valar were siblings of each other.
Here's an OT thought inspired by this thread...could the Blue Wizards have been female? discuss.
Things overheard during games of chess in Middle-earth:
Galadriel (any and every time she advances her pawn to the last row): "In its place you would have a QUEEN!!!!" (thunder booms)
http://newboards.theonering.net/...forum_view_expanded;
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