Our Sponsor Sideshow Collectibles Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien
Do you enjoy the 100% volunteer, not for profit services of TheOneRing.net?
Consider a donation!

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
children of hurin chapter discussion: the death of beleg
First page Previous page 1 2 3 Next page Last page  View All

Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Jun 3 2014, 3:30pm

Post #1 of 61 (323 views)
Shortcut
children of hurin chapter discussion: the death of beleg Can't Post

 
this chapter, though brief, gives is a lot of insight into elves as real beings, with sufferings to which mortals can relate. i find it unusually refreshing in that regard, and it's a shame there is not more of this sort of thing in tolkien's work.

we have three individuals in the spotlight here: turin, beleg, and gwindor. turin we know well. and although the entire book revolves around turin, it's these secondary characters that i'm most interested in as i read this chapter.

beleg
beleg is probably my favorite elf. he's good, he has all those great elven qualities, but he seems a lot more real and accessible than a lot of the better-known names like galadriel, feanor, thingol, luthien, etc. he also seems to have a love of mortals, to see what is worthy in us, and a wish to welcome us (his greatest rival in this is finrod; but finrod is not quite as accessible).

beleg not only values us mortals, but has great love in his heart for turin, which is rather the opposite of what many (most) of us mortal readers have. a great many of us mortal readers seem to find turin too angsty, self-involved, self-destructive.

with beleg's unfailing loyalty love for turin, and for mortals, he may well be the embodiment of a great purpose set to elvenkind: to be nurturers and shepherds of mortals, to help us find our way in arda. beleg fulfills this mission with a warmer, steadier, unfailing heart than any other elf, unfettered by grandiose ambitions of reclaiming jewels or realm-building.

1. is beleg's love and support for turin, whom many mortal readers find hard to love, a mirror of our own mortal intolerance for our own faults? a lesson that we need to love one another more mindfully?

2. or is beleg's love for turin unrelateble? is his love for turin too much a dictate of author intent: "turin inspired love in all -- i must have a character who depicts this love?" is beleg tolkien's literary factorum?



gwindor

gwindor. poor gwindor. a being who suffered much. before the battle of the unnumbered tears, he was a lord whose wisdom was highly valued. he was deep in the counsels of the king.

he is captured, and endures torture, torment, suffering in angband. fellow elves help him escape, but not without an additional loss -- one of his hands. he is a broken soul when beleg finds him, but not perhaps beyond healing.

for me, gwindor is one of the most relateable and approachable elves. he was an elven lord, yes, but his suffering and physical and mental debilitation have very tangible consequences. unlike the more lofty, similarly one-handed maedhros and beren, the loss of his hand and his physical deterioration has a real impact on his existence. he does not bounce back to rule elves or come back from the dead to live happily ever after.

1. it is said in the texts that elves who escaped angband were moreoften never trusted again by other elves. was this because of their physical marring? their emotional marring? if elves are supposed to be great healers and full in wisdom, why is it that these escapees, who were so deserving of compassion and healing, were shunned?

2. did gwindor seem, after his ordeal, more mortal-like to other elves? he was ravaged and visibly changed. was he a reminder to his fellow elves of their ultimate fading?




turin
the scene in which the three of them share the stage -- gwindor, beleg, and turin -- is so sharply drawn in my mind. and there is a storm overhead. the work of morgoth? a bit of dramatic flair from the enemy to highlight turin's next, great, horrible dead (the slaying of beleg)?

part of me -- for this particular deed -- is very sympathetic with turin. morgoth's curse or no, being assaulted and tortured by orcs, in a fevered stupor, suddenly awakening... i can well imagine his instincts taking over. perhaps morgoth didn't even need the curse for this one

1. is the death of beleg just happenstance, or is this also the curse of morgoth at work?

2. contrast turin with gwindor. does turin, with his superlative physical and charismatic attributes, seem more the elf than gwindor, who cowers in the storm and quails at the orcs (albeit thoroughly understandably)? does gwindor seem more edain-like in that moment?




anglachel

i'm adding the notion of a fourth character here, because anglachel is such a conundrum. not sentient, surely, but tolkien toys with language that seems to give anglachel some sort of dim agency, the ability to react to stimuli, the ability to choose.

just as beleg is freeing turin, cutting his bonds with anglachel, anglachel slips / beleg slips, and cuts turin, causing him to wake, rise, and slay his rescuer.

anglachel was forged by eol, the infamous, murderous dark elf. its metal came from iron that fell to earth from the sky.

melian warned beleg against taking this particular sword, warning, "there is malice in this sword. the dark heart of the smith still dwells in it. it will not love the hand it serves, neither will it abide with you long."


1. is anglachel imprinted with eol's dark, nasty, thoughts, which leads it to somehow purposefully cut turin, leading to beleg's death, slaying its master?

2. is anglachel imprinted with some dark force that was not eol's? was this sky-fallen iron a dark gift from morgoth? did this iron help to darken eol's heart (not the other way around)? if so, is anglachel doing morgoth's will, fulfilling the curse, with the injury of turin that leads to beleg's death?




some things to think about... what say you?


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Jun 3 2014, 3:35pm)


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Jun 3 2014, 4:23pm

Post #2 of 61 (170 views)
Shortcut
A few thoughts... [In reply to] Can't Post

First, I see it as a bit strange that the orcs kept Turin alive. What is Morgoth's plan? Is it to further torture Hurin? To capture Turin so that he can imprison him and claim credit for the effectiveness of his Curse? What is he thinking? He seems to always be there, but as a background character, so what are his goals? BTW, how does Morgoth cover the fact that Turin escapes? I can imagine him gloating, 'Your son will join us soon.'

To me, it seems that he takes a perverse pleasure in ruining the good in others. He couldn't make anything beautiful, so he began to twist anything good that anyone else made. 'If I can't be the best, no one can!'

When Beleg catches up to Turin, a storm comes 'out of the West'. Capital 'W'. Who'd be helping Beleg, or Turin? Or is this supposed to be torment of Morgoth, punishment from the Valar?

Eru, or the Valar collective, sent the storm to Numenor, and I see a parallel.

When the knife slips, 'fate' is credited as the cause of misfortune. Whose? Then, after Turin slays Beleg, he does not move nor cry. Channelling Morwen? Is Turin irredeemable here, or can this tragedy be the catalyst for breaking the Curse? It is said that grief was engraved on Turin's face. This is similar to the toils and cares on Aragorn's. Could the grief fall away for Turin as for Aragorn?

They come to the waters of Ivrin, and it heals Turin. Ulmo at work? Turin now hears of the Curse, and confirms it. Is this real acceptance, or bitter musing?

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?

(This post was edited by Rembrethil on Jun 3 2014, 4:25pm)


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Jun 3 2014, 4:41pm

Post #3 of 61 (165 views)
Shortcut
Answers [In reply to] Can't Post

Beleg:

I love Beleg too! He is in my top 5 favourite list for Elves. Interesting that you mention the purpose of the Elves: to instruct and guide Men. I think he fills that role perfectly, but maybe too much so, to his detriment. I think he saw the best in people-- an admirable trait--, but maybe he carried it too far, or Turun failed in some way.

Gwindor:

The disgraced Elf who contributed to the loss at the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. Is this his redemption? He seems to recover from his terror quickly, but is this the tenacity of the Elvish spirit? It is said that they had enormous power to heal. I think Beleg and the lembas played a large part in this restoration. He isn't perfectly restored, though, and I get the sense that he was never fully trusted later. I think it was Falaevrin who kept him around, but I'm getting ahead. I do think it strange for Elves to shun their own, but perhaps that was the terror of Morgoth's eyes. You couldn't be sure how daunted you were. Look at Maeglin and the other thrills who were completely cowed. Terrible risk indeed to let one such person back into your counsels.

Turin:

I think he's a bit broken. He's no longer the blind hubristic boy. He has experienced defeat, and he's in total despair. At this point he kills his best friend. Heavy stuff! I see a change in him. From now on, he has experience on his side, maybe confirming in his mind the truth if his perceptions. He has reason to think he is right, even when he isn't. Dangerous.

Anglachel:

Another ambiguous force. Much like the Ring, it has a legacy from an dark spirit, and seems to exert limited agency. I'm not sure how much, as we have less evidence of action than the Ring,( Though it seems to pick its moments to act up. It never have any inkling of problems until now.) but I think they come from a similar inspiration. It gives Turin fame later, flicking men to his side, but proves to be as dangerous in confronting a Dark Lord as the Ring would have been.

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Jun 3 2014, 4:59pm

Post #4 of 61 (156 views)
Shortcut
Norse sword and a link to Anglachel? [In reply to] Can't Post

King Högni's dwarf-made sword Dáinsleif. It could not be sheathed until it had drawn blood or taken life.

Tyrfing. Another dwarf-forged sword, it was cursed so that it would kill a man every time it was drawn.

Inspiration? Did the sword feel slighted at doing a common knife's work? Come to think of it. Why use a sword to cut Turin's bonds? Were they mancles?

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Jun 3 2014, 5:09pm

Post #5 of 61 (155 views)
Shortcut
anglachel -- legacy from a dark spirit -- but which? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
anglachel had a legacy from a dark spirit... but which? from eol or from morgoth?


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Jun 3 2014, 5:35pm

Post #6 of 61 (153 views)
Shortcut
agree with much you say, rem [In reply to] Can't Post

 
re morgoth's desire to capture turin.... he couldn't quite break hurin, so perhaps it would be delicious to him to capture his son, and break his son's will right before his eyes? and perhaps release him to do more mischief?

morgoth is +exactly+ the chap who, not feeling adequate with his own creations (despite his eru-given power and artistry), topples the works of others. he indulged himself quite a bit in this way when the valar were creating arda... spilling ulmo's seas, creating volcanic pile-ups out of yavanna's savannahs (i was going to go with yavanna's valleys, but that sounds just as comical), toppling manwe's mountains, and so forth. he'd be quite the child, if he weren't so imbued with power and knowledge. for being the mightiest, he is the smallest, no?

yes, i had forgotten, the orcs quailed at the storm. perhaps the storm was sent out of the west by an ainu... but not any of the regular valar, i think. perhaps ulmo... lord of waters playing around with precipitation? perhaps not. then there'd be two ulmo interventions in this tale (the pool, also). sometimes a storm is just a storm, even if it's a dramatic and precipitously timed one.

i also wondered about cutting the ropes with a sword. that could +not+ have been easy. if you grab the sword by the hilt, there's all the long length of the blade to get in the way. if you try to grab it towards the end, it's difficult, because you're grabbing the blade. beleg was wood-crafty. i cannot imagine him going about, especially on this little trek, without a knife. that always seemed odd to me.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Jun 3 2014, 5:37pm

Post #7 of 61 (143 views)
Shortcut
i definitely think [In reply to] Can't Post

 
i definitely think tolkien was drawing on these saga-type swords.

i'm not sure anglachel has agency, really. but i am quite sure tolkien liked the poetic notion of a sword having a role in fate and talking with the hero (anti-hero? tragic hero?). i think this is one of those artistic fancies that appealed to tolkien, and about which he never quite nailed down all the details and consistencies.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


CuriousG
Valinor


Jun 4 2014, 12:17am

Post #8 of 61 (140 views)
Shortcut
Morgoth's machinations [In reply to] Can't Post

Morgoth's motivation is given in the preceding chapter:

Quote
Yet he began to fear that Túrin would grow to such a power that the curse that he had laid upon him would become void, and he would escape the doom that had been designed for him, or else that he might retreat to Doriath and be lost to his sight again. Now therefore he had a mind to seize Túrin and afflict him even as his father, to torment him and enslave him.


Which conjures up questions again about the mechanics of the curse--Morgoth feared Turin could overpower it? Or that he could hide behind Melian's Girdle? But we saw that he wasn't curse-free in Doriath, and she didn't think he was either. I can forgive Turin for not understanding the curse upon him when none of the magical mortals around him seemed to either.

I agree with you (and the Orcs; I always agree with Orcs) that the storm was sent by Manwe. It would have made good their escape, if only Anglachel hadn't betrayed them.

Re: knives. The story says there were knives embedded in the tree that the Orcs had been throwing at Turin (a circus act gone wrong?), so couldn't the Elves have used one of those spares? Or were the bonds on Turin so great that you needed a heavy duty sword to cut through them and a mere knife wouldn't suffice? That's my conclusion.

What I don't understand about Ivrin is that "guarded from defilement by Ulmo, Lord of Waters," yet when Glaurung shows up to defile it, there's no contest. So a Vala can be bested by a dragon???


CuriousG
Valinor


Jun 4 2014, 12:21am

Post #9 of 61 (131 views)
Shortcut
Swords: can't live with 'em, can't kill without 'em [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the references. I think it adds spice to the story that Anglachel is a sort of double agent, or free agent, preserving the residue of Eol's malice, and then oddly at the end it has remorse for being used to kill unjustly. A hypocritical sword--Who would have guess that was possible?


CuriousG
Valinor


Jun 4 2014, 12:36am

Post #10 of 61 (148 views)
Shortcut
Elves: can't live with 'em, can't--oh, never mind [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for leading this chapter, Mac!!

Beleg and Mablung are proletarian heroes vs all the aristocratic and royal ones we otherwise get. There's something about them that makes me think there could be a separate book of short stories just about all their adventures, and it says something that they were so brave and devoted to the higher cause of Elfdom that they were the only ones from Doriath to go off to the Nirnaeth.

Beleg's death is the saddest part of this whole story for me, the one where I grab my armchair while reading and want to reverse what happened somehow. It's like having Sam get killed in LOTR, for Pete's sake! You don't kill the loyal sidekick. OK, Hollywood does that all the time, but this is Beleriand, not Hollywood.

Gwindor is odd to me because I want to blame the whole Nirnaeth on him, even if that's wrong of me to want to, but I find him noble and pitiable in his broken state, so I can't really work up a good dose of blame, or wanting the wolves to eat him. It is sad that escapees from Angband are shunned, but when many of them were in fact still in thrall to Morgoth, I can't blame the Elves for doing the shunning out of self-preservation. It says a lot for Gwindor that he takes so readily to Turin, though if I think about it, doesn't he take to him TOO readily? What exactly is the story for Gwindor here? He escapes from Angband, is found and succored by Beleg, whom he might know by fame, might not, participates in the rescue of some Man he knows nothing about, and watches that man go crazy and kill Beleg. So, does Gwindor say, "Okay, Man, I've set you free, and now we're parting ways because you're crazy and dangerous?"

No, he takes the crazy stranger off to Ivrin to be healed. Isn't that a wonderfully Elven thing to do? Would all Elves do that? Would Thingol or Caranthir or Feanor do that? No. So Gwindor is pretty special, but I suspect it's more of a tribute to Beleg, knowing that the latter risked his life to save Crazy Man, and figuring there must therefore be something worthwhile in Crazy Man.

If the Curse killed Beleg (I think it did), did it also soften up Gwindor to take Crazy Man to Nargothrond? I'm half-suspect that, but not entirely. The eventual destruction of Nargothrond might just have been fated anyway, so the details didn't matter.


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Jun 4 2014, 1:34am

Post #11 of 61 (129 views)
Shortcut
I'd tentatively say... [In reply to] Can't Post

Eöl, but only because he is the closest in proximity. We can also say Morgoth, because it was never decided one way or another, but my knee-jerk reaction is Eöl. Melian said it, so I give it credence.

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Jun 4 2014, 1:41am

Post #12 of 61 (123 views)
Shortcut
Very much agreed. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think this was a notion that would have been further developed. The idea of a sentient sword, very cool! Seeing the precedents, and the problems that came from them, I think he thought they would fit very well into this tale. I'm not sure 'agency' was the right word. Maybe 'agenda' or 'legacy'.

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Jun 4 2014, 1:47am

Post #13 of 61 (127 views)
Shortcut
Angrist, a failing blade [In reply to] Can't Post

In the case of Angrist snapping and pricking Morgoth, it was understandable-- it was a hunting knife of a proper size. Were these crafting errors? Or were these blades failures akin to each other?

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Jun 4 2014, 1:51am

Post #14 of 61 (125 views)
Shortcut
yes, she said it, but... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
yes, melian referenced "the smith," but i'm differentiating between

1. eol's dark soul imprinting on anglachel

2. morgoth sending flaming, tainted iron to arda, eol picking it up, and getting radioactive burns, in the metaphysical, soul-sense -- and then imprinting his injuries onto anglachel

eol was pretty dark. from whence did that darkness come?

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Jun 4 2014, 1:52am)


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Jun 4 2014, 1:54am

Post #15 of 61 (127 views)
Shortcut
Why's [In reply to] Can't Post

Their were lots of knives around, so why use a long sword? I've handled them. Not so good for fine work, better for sticking the other guy. I must then assume they were manacles and chains.

About Ivrin. I see Ulmo as a behind-the-scenes guy. After all, Gondolin was dedicated to him. I don't think he could exactly fight openly. Even to Tuor he said his power was withdrawing before Morgoth's defilement.

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Jun 4 2014, 1:58am

Post #16 of 61 (121 views)
Shortcut
Could be either... [In reply to] Can't Post

Whichever strikes your fancy. I'm not one to create elaborate fan-fiction, but neither an I one to cast aspersions on anyone's theories. Have fun! I don't have an opinion on this. Though, I do wonder where the inspiration of the falling metal star came from... Anyone know?

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Jun 4 2014, 2:08am

Post #17 of 61 (119 views)
Shortcut
Crocodile tears? [In reply to] Can't Post

Really, I am so sceptic as to not buy into all the tears and remorse of evil characters who die unredeemed. How do we know Anglachel was sorry? Was it really an 'Oh snap! I killed this guy out in the middle of no where. How will I get out of this?' I'm being harsh, but nothing makes me think Anglachel had a conscience.

Perhaps this is a case of transference? Anglachel had witnessed the nobility and heroism of Beleg and Turin, something it did not have with Eöl, and maybe some of that rubbed off on it. Maybe it was beginning to be purged of malice, but the transformation was incomplete? In this case, perhaps it didn't feel anything, but it sensed that something was wrong, based on the morality of others, like a sociopath becoming aware of their mistake by the reactions of others. Maybe this sword just needed a psychiatrist to work out its issues.

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Jun 4 2014, 2:18am

Post #18 of 61 (120 views)
Shortcut
Gwindor, an Elven Turin [In reply to] Can't Post

He is an odd character, isn't he? I very much disliked him for the Nirnaeth, as well, but I've softened a bit. If this was the end of his story, I might be confused, as I was with Voronwë the singularly chatty Elf (Who was it that gave him a slide projector last Sil read-through?), but it doesn't. We will see how he develops in the later chapters.

He seems right now to be a very twisted and confused Elf. He's seem horrors, escaped bondage, but still has a part to play. I am reminded if Turin, I don't know why. Maybe it is the messed up tragedy that is his backstory. Is his grief what binds him to Turin? They have both suffered greatly. Or us it his natural Elven goodness that had been undimmed by his thralldom? He seems to recover so quickly, but Elves aren't Men, they seem to have a strong will to live so....

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


CuriousG
Valinor


Jun 4 2014, 2:38am

Post #19 of 61 (117 views)
Shortcut
Dark Elves [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not sure all darkness gets to go back to Melkor. Feanor and his sons were nudged along by Melkor, but the houses of Fingolfin and Finarfin were not so corrupt, so it's not like Melkor had a uniformly evil effect on Elves, did he? Hence Feanor & Sons had their own evil beginnings independent of Melkor, as I believe Eol did, and any other dark-hearted Elf. For that matter, I don't find Thingol all that kind-hearted despite being showered in the presence of a nice Ainu. Outside influences only go so far.


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Jun 4 2014, 2:44am

Post #20 of 61 (115 views)
Shortcut
showered in the presence of a nice ainu? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
showered in the presence of a nice ainu? are you meaning to say that all the sponge baths melain gave thingol didn't entirely wash him clean?

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Mikah
Lorien

Jun 4 2014, 2:48am

Post #21 of 61 (115 views)
Shortcut
Eol's metal... [In reply to] Can't Post

I do not know where Tolkien's inspiration came from. But, from my understanding when a shooting star hits the Earth it is called a meteorite. Meteorites are typically made up of silicon and nickel. I am willing to bet that Tolkien knew this as well. Do you remember, he talks about Eol creating a very strong armor, yet it was pliable. Perhaps this is where Tolkien got his idea?? Just a thought.


CuriousG
Valinor


Jun 4 2014, 2:53am

Post #22 of 61 (113 views)
Shortcut
Maybe it was her pet birds that made him cranky. [In reply to] Can't Post

"Nightingales went always with her." Can you imagine being married to someone for eternity, and their doggone birds are always cluttering up the castle? Perched on the TV, using the toilet as a bird bath, singing at 3 am, and leaving droppings all over the carpet? Being married to a goddess has its dark side. It's no wonder Thingol was in a bad mood most of the time.


Mikah
Lorien

Jun 4 2014, 3:09am

Post #23 of 61 (112 views)
Shortcut
The curse at work. [In reply to] Can't Post

Curious George I laughed myself silly reading your analysis of the relationship between Turin (aka crazy man) and Gwindor. I can honestly say I had not seen this part of the story this way in the past. However, I get where you are coming from! I would like to add to your list and say that I do not believe that Fingolfin, Maedhros, or Fingon would have helped Turin in this matter either. Come to think of it, I can not think of many who would. Self preservation is a strong instinct.

I am in agreement with you CG. I believe that the curse killed Beleg too. In my perspective, the curse is so strong at this part of the story, that it seems to spell doom either one way or the other. Had Turin been taken to Angband he would have undoubtedly been used to torment Hurin. To see your son tortured in front of your very eyes is quite a different matter than seeing events unfold through indistinct perception.

On the other hand, Turin's escape proved a doom for a whole realm, which was also an ambition of Morgoths. Either way it seems as though Turin is kind of hosed here.

Anyway, I will be back to address the other questions later!


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Jun 4 2014, 3:10am

Post #24 of 61 (110 views)
Shortcut
"why do birds... suddenly appear... every time.... you are near?" [In reply to] Can't Post

 
just like me
they long to be....


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Jun 4 2014, 3:23am

Post #25 of 61 (104 views)
Shortcut
hallo! : ) [In reply to] Can't Post

 
i'm not advocating a theory at this point, rem... but the thought occurred to me, it seemed an interesting one, so i wanted to proffer it to the group.

cheers : )

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

First page Previous page 1 2 3 Next page Last page  View All
 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.