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A few new map observations

boldog
Rohan


May 28 2014, 10:59am

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A few new map observations Can't Post

What is Himling? You know, that Island just west of Forlindon? Is it all that remains of the hill of himring, from the first age in beleriand? And what is the names of the forests on the western slopes of the Ered Luin? The ones in Forlindon and Harlindon? And are there any peoples living in that space of land west of the blue mountains before the sea?

I believe that Azog and Bolg are possibly the only two orcs who may be an exception to the typical evil nature of an orc. Azog had brought up his son, well enough that he actually acknowledges him as his own son. That is a first for any orc. And Bolg sets out to march upon Erebor in vengeance of his fathers death. How many orcs will Try and avenge another dead orc? Most will just forget about the dead one. This gives me hope that Orcs, have some traits of good in them, even if it is small aspects.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 28 2014, 2:29pm

Post #2 of 9 (416 views)
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Interesting questions. [In reply to] Can't Post

Your guess about Himling/Himring is as good an explanation as any. Comparing maps of Beleriand with maps of the north-western coast in the Second and Third Ages does suggest that the two sites correspond.

The forests of Forlindon and Harlindon do not seem to have specific names and appear to be mostly uninhabited. Still, some High Elves probably dwelt there as the forests likely provided timber for the ships built by Cirdan's folk in the Grey Havens. I doubt that many Men outside of a few Dunedain could be found in the remains of Lindon until after the end of the Third Age.

Here is another question about that region: Were the harbors of Forlond and Harlond (not to be confused with Harlond on the Anduin, south of Minas Tirith) still in use by the end of the Third Age? Or, were they abandoned as early as the Second Age?

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Elthir
Grey Havens

May 28 2014, 5:58pm

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*Tol Himring [In reply to] Can't Post


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What is Himling? You know, that Island just west of Forlindon? Is it all that remains of the hill of himring, from the first age in beleriand?



My answer is yes and no Smile

Yes: as Himling is just the older, rejected version of the name Himring [the hill was once named Himling in older versions of the text], only, as Tolkien had not revised it on an old map [for the Island], Christopher Tolkien kept the old version Himling for his map in Unfinished Tales.

No: as I'm not sure this was Tolkien's ultimate intention here. In other words, this detail, that the hill became an island, was never published by JRR Tolkien nor was added to the map Tolkien later made with Pauline Baynes [Tolkien himself did add new details to this map].

In any case, after Tolkien's passing the map from Unfinished Tales got copied into The Lord of the Rings, and the old spelling Himling thus became the name of the Isle instead of *Tol Himring. I can't yet find any indication that Tolkien intended this name-switch from an internal perspective however, nor that this Isle was supposed to have survided according to later ideas...

... considering too Treebeard's song that Dorthonion was under the waves, and the much larger Isle of [what was once] 'Dorthonion' on the same old map.


Elthir
Grey Havens

May 28 2014, 7:08pm

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by the way... [In reply to] Can't Post

... for better clarity perhaps: I don't know that *Tol Himring was ever intended as a name, I'm just using it as my own invention considering that Himling was changed to Himring as the name of the hill.

Also, my 'survided' should be 'survived' Crazy

Also also, the other [huge] isle I refer to is Tol Fuin. It was once part of Dorthonion. This Isle also appeared on Tolkien's 'old map' but along with 'Himling' wasn't published in any edition of The Lord of the Rings while Tolkien was alive, nor the Pauline Baynes map.

What survived of Beleriand is a very uncertain matter. Tol Morwen is at least attested in a post-Lord of the Rings text, while as I say, Treebeard's chant at least suggests that Dorthonion had sunk along with other lands. Of course one could argue with Treebeard, and ask how he could know about Tol Fuin or not, but still...

... as of yet I can't find any later references to Himling or Tol Fuin, and given that, for whatever reason, they did not appear in any edition while Tolkien was alive, I'm not sure if it's known if Tolkien himself did not abandon the idea. That is, even if they were left out of the original maps by mistake, Tolkien is then free to abandon the idea without ever noting it...

... or not. But still, why not add the details at some point, if they are 'true' that is. Or something.


Felagund
Rohan


Jun 1 2014, 2:41pm

Post #5 of 9 (348 views)
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Himling / Himring - CT's assessment, c. 1992 [In reply to] Can't Post

This question prompted me to revisit 'The Treason of Isengard' (The Two Towers draft). This work, and Unfinished Tales (already cited by you), draws together everything I can find that the Tolkien Estate has published on Himling / Himring.

In short, the cataclysm at the end of the First Age left behind Tol Fuin and Himling (and other unnamed islands, leftover from Beleriandic mountain chains). Himling was the original name, but Christopher Tolkien is in no doubt that Himling and Himring are the same place. The main additional bit of knowledge that The Treason of Isengard brings, is that when he produced Unfinished Tales, CT wasn't aware of a manuscript that explicitly spelled out Himling's survival as an island into the Second and Third Ages.

As for why these islands didn't appear on the Pauline Baynes map - no idea! Looking at the NW corner of that map, a picture of Cerin Amroth (of all places!) takes up the space where Himling and Tol Fuin would normally be. Re-reading CT's discussion in The Treason of Isengard, both islands featured on JRR Tolkien's 'First Map', and CT's earliest (1943) draft.

As you say, it's hard to say what JRR Tolkien's final intent was. However, I'm pretty comfortable with CT's reinstatement of Himling in the Unfinished Tales map and subsequent LotR edition. He was, for all intents and purposes, his father's cartographer, so I see the return of Himling as an appropriate 'restoration'. I'd extend the same courtesy to Tol Fuin.

And whilst we're on matters insular... The 'First Map' I referred to above has several small islands in and around the Havens of Umbar - none of which made the 'final' version as we know it. A quick word on Tolfalas too. The Treason of Isengard makes one of only two mentions anywhere to this lonely little island in the Bay of Belfalas. In this draft of the Two Towers, Tolfalas was captured by the Haradrim. The other reference is picked up in The Peoples of Middle-earth, essentially the draft of the LotR Appendices. There, Tolfalas is mentioned as being "almost destroyed" by the upheaval caused by the destruction of Númenor.

And finally, Karen Wynn Fonstad's 'Atlas of Middle-earth' has as good a depiction as I've seen of how Tol Fuin, Himling / Himring and Tol Morwen relate to Middle-earth and the Third Age. Non-canon, but she was an awesome cartographer of fantasy worlds.

Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk


Elthir
Grey Havens

Jun 2 2014, 2:11am

Post #6 of 9 (336 views)
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author published material [In reply to] Can't Post


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In short, the cataclysm at the end of the First Age left behind Tol Fuin and Himling (and other unnamed islands, leftover from Beleriandic mountain chains). Himling was the original name, but Christopher Tolkien is in no doubt that Himling and Himring are the same place. The main additional bit of knowledge that The Treason of Isengard brings, is that when he produced Unfinished Tales, CT wasn't aware of a manuscript that explicitly spelled out Himling's survival as an island into the Second and Third Ages.



Right, but to add to that, this text you refer to is an early draft text. I have no doubt that Tolkien -- at one point in his life -- imagined these Islands as surviving, but I'm not sure he did later.



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As for why these islands didn't appear on the Pauline Baynes map - no idea! Looking at the NW corner of that map, a picture of Cerin Amroth (of all places!) takes up the space where Himling and Tol Fuin would normally be. Re-reading CT's discussion in The Treason of Isengard, both islands featured on JRR Tolkien's 'First Map', and CT's earliest (1943) draft.




I have a guess: Tolkien didn't add it Wink

No one that I'm yet aware of [including Christopher Tolkien] has yet to explain why these Islands do not appear in any map published by Tolkien himself. And the First Edition of The Lord of the Rings came with a fold out too -- that is, there was plenty of room for these Islands in the fold out map [no pictures by Pauline Baynes here of course].

And just to add the quote about the later map: 'She [Pauline Baynes] consulted with Tolkien, who sent her a marked photocopy of the general map, as well as additional names to include and advice on a few points of topography and nomenclature...' Hammond And Scull RC


Quote
As you say, it's hard to say what JRR Tolkien's final intent was. However, I'm pretty comfortable with CT's reinstatement of Himling in the Unfinished Tales map and subsequent LotR edition. He was, for all intents and purposes, his father's cartographer, so I see the return of Himling as an appropriate 'restoration'. I'd extend the same courtesy to Tol Fuin.



With respect to restoration, I think we need some proof from Tolkien -- even if the Islands got left out accidentally from both the first and second editions [although this hardly seems likely, twice] -- that he still intended the idea to be true. Compare, for example, the mid to later 1930s Quenta Silmarillion being turned down for publication. Not an accident of course, but since it never appeared in print, Tolken was very free to change a number of things in his Silmarillion, in later years.

For all we know [so far] JRRT rejected the idea*. As noted, according to Treeeard's chant Dorthonion lay beneath the waves, thus [arguably] no Tol Fuin at least. Also, Tolkien's Unfinished Index to The Lord of the Rings makes no mention of the Isle of 'Himling': Beleriand -- The 'lost land of [the] Elder Days (of which Lindon was all that remained in the Third Age)' Quote from Hammond And Scull's Reader's Companion.

I realize silence doesn't prove rejection [and that if we stress 'all' in this index entry we still have Tol Morwen to deal with in any case], but to my mind neither does it prove that the idea was still being countenanced by JRRT [not that you said it did]. And I believe it is in The Lost Road And Other Writings where Christopher Tolkien stated [something like] that 'what survived of Beleriand' was a fluid matter [pun intended]...

... and never clarified by his father, and I would add Himling and Tol Fuin in with that caution. Arguable 'creation' when it comes to the constructed Silmarillion is one thing, but this is text published by the author himself, and I think we need more solid ground than 'old' maps and draft texts to go adding something to The Lord of the Rings.

__________

*could the theoretical 'rejection' make the survival of Tol Morwen more unique? That is, removing explicit mentions of Tol Fuin and 'Himling' (or simply not mentiong them again, as they had not been published anyway) could give Tol Morwen a more unique place in the legendarium.

'For this there can be no simple explanation, but it seems to me that an important element was the centrality that my father accorded to the story of Húrin and Morwen and their children (...) This became for him, I believe, the dominant and absorbing story of the end of the Elder Days, in which complexity of motive and character, trapped in the mysterious workings of Morgoth's curse, sets it altogether apart.' Christopher Tolkien Foreword The War of the Jewels

Thus

'... nor ever thrown down, not though the Sea should drown all the land. As indeed after befell, and still the Tol Morwen stands alone in the water beyond the new coasts that were made in the days of the wrath of the Valar. But Húrin does not lie there, for his doom drove him on, ...' JRRT The Wanderings of Húrin

Perhaps I'm reaching here, but I feel if Tol Morwen were truly more 'alone' (more than merely being lonely or 'alone' in the place where it stood), the surviving Isle becoming more singular surrounds it with more mythic importance.


(This post was edited by Elthir on Jun 2 2014, 2:21am)


Elthir
Grey Havens

Jun 4 2014, 6:14pm

Post #7 of 9 (319 views)
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More on the Himling text, and the later Tol Morwen [In reply to] Can't Post


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The main additional bit of knowledge that The Treason of Isengard brings, is that when he produced Unfinished Tales, CT wasn't aware of a manuscript that explicitly spelled out Himling's survival as an island into the Second and Third Ages.




What's interesting about this Himling text is that, according to Christopher Tolkien, it 'seems clear' that it preceded account III, which refers to a revised ending of The Fall of Numenor. So it came before a text which states that while Beleriand was broken, it was not drowned until the Fall of Numenor -- when the 'sea covered all that was left save some of the mountains that remained as Islands' and Lindon.

This account was struck through in any case, but again, the text in question came before this description [and before the First Map]. The Himling-text has the Great Battle being the cause of the drowning: 'Taur na Fuin became an Island. The mountains of Eredwethion &c. became small isles (so also Himling).' So according to this text we have a rather huge Island Tol Fuin, Himling, and even Isles made from the Ered Wethrin (the later form of the name)

... but next we have the conception that the sinking of Beleriand occurred at the Fall of Numenor, in a text where no Tol Fuin nor Himling are named specifically, but of course we have general 'mountains that remained as Islands, even up to the feet of Eredlindon' plus Lindon.

This early text references [G]Ondor so The Lord of the Rings was begun, although still a long way from completion. This text was struck through, along with the note that said Beleriand was all sunk 'except for a few islands = mountains'

Chronological order: the First Map must precede Christopher Tolkien's copy of 1943, and the Himling text precedes the First Map and the Fall of Numenor revision [or 'FN' ultimately struck through], but I don't know if we have: Himling-text, FN ending [struck out], First Map; or Himling text, First Map, FN ending [struck out].

In any case my point is: this is not only early stuff, but early enough to come before a notably changed idea of what caused the sinking of Beleriand. The idea seems fluid even at this point. In the Quenta Silmarillion of the mid to later 1930s, the western world was rent asunder, and the sea roared in through many chasms, and [The Lost Road]: 'Then Men, such as had not perished in the ruin of those days, fled far away, and it was long ere any came back over Eredlindon to the places where Beleriand had been.' And after the Great Battle there was a great building of ships upon the shores of the Western Sea '... and escepecially upon the great isles which, in the disruption of the northern world, were fashioned of ancient Beleriand.'

What were these isles, especially that Men might return to? Tolkien will then refer to lingering Elves in the West and North 'and especially in the western isles and in the Land of Leithian' [Quenta Silmarillion] What was the land of Leithian?

In earlier conceptions, at least, Leithian had been England [!] an Isle formed from the destruction of Beleriand. I'm not saying it still was 'England', but that this is yet another questionable element, from yet another early text.


Tol Morwen and The Lord of the Rings.

I'm repeating myself a bit here, but for the sake of a fuller argument in this post: Treebeard began to chant of various lands in Beleriand, including:

'(...) To the pine-trees upon the Highland of Dothonion I climbed in the
Winter.
Ah! the wind and the whiteness and the black branches of Winter
upon Orod-na-Thon!
My voice went up and sang in the sky.
And now all those lands lie under the wave,...'

In his Unfinished Index [according to Hammond and Scull, Tolkien seemingly worked on this in 1953 or 1954, to early 1955] Tolkien noted: 'Dothonion, land of pines, a highland on north borders of Beleriand' and 'Orod-na-Thon 'the pine mountain' a mountain in Dorthonion, north of Beleriand, in the Elder Days', dor 'land'. This would seem to indicate high lands that yet did not survive the Sea, and given that Dorthonion became Taur-na-Fuin, in general at least, this might indicate that Tol Fuin was later an abandoned concept.

And I'll repeat what's noted in the Unfinished Index for Beleriand -- The 'lost land of [the] Elder Days (of which Lindon was all that remained in the Third Age)' I assume this too is from the 'unfinished index' of the early 1950s, and Hammond and Scull just write 'index' here but do not note [as in other places], a much later index. And also this is a place-name, which agrees with the type of terms found in the unfinished index. Anyway this seems to agree with:

'... before they crossed the Blue Mountains into Beleriand, of which Lindon is all that now remains.' Appendix A

Earlier I said that perhaps we cannot push Tolkien here about his choice of 'all that remained', in part due to Tol Morwen; and here he repeats this -- but Tol Morwen appears to have arrived in the later 1950s, thus after these two descriptions in any case. To Morwen is found in The Wanderings of Hurin:

'And a seer and harp-player of Brethil, Glirhuin, made a song saying the Stone of the Hapless should not be defiled by Morgoth nor ever thrown down, not though the Seas should drown all the land. As after indeed befell, and still Tol Morwen stands alone in the water beyond the new coasts that were made in the days of the wrath of the Valar.'

Again, how much more singular is this if the isles of Ered Wethrin, Tol Fuin, and Himling, had long since been rejected?


Sooo I think what we have is: possibly a full decade between the Himling-text and the writing of, or ultimate publication of, these things from The Lord of the Rings [or its unfinished index], and then more years until Tol Morwen appears as a conception -- which could explain the seemingly sweeping statements back in the early 1950s that implies only Lindon remained.

That said, I admit even Tolkien could claim: 'generally speaking' in both examples. But still...

... there's plenty of time for changed conceptions here [again, especially considering the arguably confused state of the survival of Beleriand in the late 1930s or early 1940s], in addition to the lack of any of these islands appearing on the first and second edition maps, and the Pauline Baynes map, which Tolkien helped construct; and thus any maps published while JRRT was alive.

Well, that I'm aware of anyway Smile


Felagund
Rohan


Jun 8 2014, 12:16pm

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Great post; deserves more attention [In reply to] Can't Post

A very nice study of the texts, their chronology and implications for post-Beleriandic islands.

As a Middle-earth geography freak, I must confess that I've an in-built bias towards an expanded map, as long as additions have a JRR Tolkien source. That probably explains why I favour Christopher Tolkien's 'restorations', and love for the Pauline Baynes map and the additional info it communicates. None of this is to say that I reject any part of your excellent analysis though.

Anyway, perhaps we could revisit this, as part of a wider-ranging chat about the interplay between the 'First Map', the 1943 map, the 1969 Baynes map, and the post-1980 maps. I hope to post something shortly!

Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk


Elthir
Grey Havens

Jun 9 2014, 12:22am

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Thanks [In reply to] Can't Post

And I have to admit, once Hammond and Scull's The Lord of the Rings A Reader's Companion came out, and there was a section on the maps, I thought there was going to be something about why these Islands were left out of all 'three' maps published in Tolkien's lifetime: printer error? Something.

However they basically repeat what Christopher Tolkien said in Unfinished Tales, which is fine, except that there Christopher Tolkien doesn't really explain this either, but implies, by restoring it, that it should be restored -- but there are plenty of things pre-1943 that didn't make it into the 'final' text of The Lord of the Rings.

Plus, why not at least change the name to the Isle of Himring? Since Himling [earlier] became the name Himring [later] for the hill, and this was taken up into the 1977 Silmarillion -- as now it gives the impression that the name actually changed within the tale [like Minas Ithil to Minas Morgul for example] -- and the seeming internal change from Himring to Himling is the opposite of the actual scenario, as Himling becomes the later name as far as the internal history is concerned.

I'm confused so far Smile

 
 

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