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DaughterofLaketown
Gondor
May 27 2014, 10:39pm
Post #1 of 34
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A thread on an often ignored character
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Honestly I am embarrassed to say I didn't even know he existed until today. But apparently Dol Amroth had a son. So Faramir had a cousin!?!!?!
 Comments?
(This post was edited by DaughterofLaketown on May 27 2014, 10:39pm)
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
May 27 2014, 11:18pm
Post #2 of 34
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Do you tease DaughterofLaketown?
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Dol Amroth translates as (S.) 'Hill of Amroth', or "Amroth's Hill", located in Belfalas.
Amroth was an Elven-king who built the Port of Dol Amroth, and he was the lover of Nimrodel.
No Faramir connection that I know of...(?)
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DaughterofLaketown
Gondor
May 28 2014, 12:21am
Post #3 of 34
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http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Elphir
His name is elphir. He was one of many children of dol Amroth. Dol Amroth was the uncle of Faramir so this would be his cousin.
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DaughterofLaketown
Gondor
May 28 2014, 12:23am
Post #4 of 34
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There seems to be a family resemblance.
(And oversized picture that had to be removed - Ataahua.)
(This post was edited by Ataahua on May 31 2014, 10:35pm)
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
May 28 2014, 12:52am
Post #5 of 34
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Imrahil was Prince of Dol Amroth.
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It is often customary to call a noble by his title, so some may have called him Dol Amroth. He was the brother of Denethor's wife, and therefore Faramir's uncle.
Tolkien wrote some confusing stuff about this family. According to one account, the line was founded by Imrazôr the Númenórean and the Elven-lady Mithrellas, one of Nimrodel's Silvan companions, in Belfalas around T.A. 2000. They had two children: a boy Galador and a girl Gilmith. Shortly thereafter Mithrellas is said to have vanished in the night. Galador, according to this tradition, became the first Lord of Dol Amroth.
All this accounts for the "elvish" strain Legolas identified in Imrahil.
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squire
Half-elven
May 28 2014, 12:56am
Post #6 of 34
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I'd put it as "always ignored".
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Or at least, I would have until you posted a fan-art picture of him (if that's who that is supposed to be)!
HoME XII is one of the dustiest steamer trunks in the entire series, being largely about the evolution of the famous LotR Appendices. Tolkien complained that he had had to edit the apparatus severely to fit his publisher's constraints as volume 3 of the LotR was being prepared. This family tree of the Princes of Dol Amroth is one of the items finally deemed not ready for prime time. I admit I never knew of this one until today -- thanks for bringing it to our attention!
That said, I found the story of the actual marriage that introduced elven blood into the Princes' mortal line more interesting than the plain list of Faramir's cousins (except that it includes a sister, a rarity in Tolkien's accessory genealogies). Evidently the lady Elf delivered two children to her husband, and then disappeared into the night, never to be seen again. I found that both sad, obviously, but also remarkable as not being in keeping with all the other Elf-Mortal unions that he chronicles in his legends.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
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DaughterofLaketown
Gondor
May 28 2014, 2:28am
Post #7 of 34
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I did not know of his existence before today. He was never mentioned in anywhere that I found. I actually discovered this picture of all places on pinterest. A place not usually full of Lotr fans so big they would know something this obscure. It made me curious so I thought to post it here.
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DaughterofLaketown
Gondor
May 28 2014, 2:28am
Post #8 of 34
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The picture above is a fan art rendering which I think is rather well done.
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I thought it would help if you guys had a visual image.
(This post was edited by DaughterofLaketown on May 28 2014, 2:29am)
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Laineth
Lorien
May 28 2014, 3:11am
Post #9 of 34
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"Prince of Dol Amroth" is the title, Faramir's uncle is named Imrahil.
There is a lot of fanfic out there about this family. While Elphir is never mentioned in LotR, his baby sister Lothíriel is. In Appendix A: The House of Eorl it says, In the last year of the Third Age [Éomer] wedded Lothíriel, daughter of Imrahil. Their son Elfwine the Fair ruled after him.
In the appendix to The Disaster of the Gladden Fields (UT book) it says,
His kinship with Éomer of Rohan, though distant, was recognized by Imrahil, and great friendship grew between them. Éomer wedded Imrahil's daughter [Lothíriel], and their son, Elfwine the Fair, had a striking likeness to his mother's father.
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DaughterofLaketown
Gondor
May 28 2014, 3:21am
Post #10 of 34
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I did not realize his sister married into the house of Rohan! Cool.
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Morthoron
Gondor
May 28 2014, 3:26am
Post #11 of 34
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Yes, but "Fairy Brides" of this manner...
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....are a well-known folklore motif, particularly vanishing fairy brides in Irish and Welsh folklore. The usual story is that a fairy maid is captured by a mortal man who then weds her.
Usually, there is some type of prohibition (or geas) that the man breaks and the fairy bride disappears forever, leaving behind any children with the man. The prohibitions may be the fairy finding her skin (if she is a selkie or water fairy of some sort), or if the man strikes the maid a "causeless blow" (as happens in the Welsh "Lady of the Lake").
Evidently, Tolkien did not expand or expound upon the reasons why Mithrellas suddenly left, which to me always seemed to leave the tale unfinished or rushed. But she was a silvan elf, and as such was more fey than the high elves usually depicted in Elf-Mortal unions.
Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.
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DaughterofLaketown
Gondor
May 28 2014, 3:31am
Post #12 of 34
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I am very familiar with celtic legends and the archetype of "the fairy bride".
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
May 28 2014, 1:03pm
Post #13 of 34
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For straightening me out on this veiled piece of Tolkienia.
I had no idea that Boromir had an uncle named Dol Amroth . . .
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BlackFox
Half-elven
May 28 2014, 2:29pm
Post #14 of 34
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Give the girl a break. 
"Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake." - Henry David Thoreau
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
May 28 2014, 4:20pm
Post #15 of 34
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As I have taken a good hammering on this post I thought a little sarcasm might be acceptable.
To quote Elizabeth:
“It is often customary to call a noble by his title, so some may have called him Dol Amroth.”
Indicating that Princes and Kings would have a secondary name, I was going to make a list of these ‘minor’ names, such as Imrahil would be called “Dol Amroth” (Not “Imrahil OF Dol Amroth” (?)). And as Dol Amroth was a place we could say that:
Theoden might be called “Edoras”.
Thranduil might be called “Woodland Realm”.
Finrod might be called “Nargothrond”.
Thingol might be called “Doriath”.
Turgon might be called “Gondolin”.
Elessar might be called “Minas Tirith”.
Faramir might be called “Ithilien” (FO).
But this list would be too extensive and ludicrous - so I won’t, I won’t.
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Morthoron
Gondor
May 28 2014, 4:41pm
Post #16 of 34
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I would direct you to Shakespeare's historical plays...
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...or English history in general. Most of the upper nobility was not referred to by name, but by their seat of power; hence Buckingham, Essex, Gloucester, etc.
Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.
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DaughterofLaketown
Gondor
May 28 2014, 4:59pm
Post #17 of 34
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Okay everyone I didn't want to start a war!
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I meant Imrahil. I am just used to calling him that in my head. I just use his title more than his name. I thought everyone would get who I meant.
(This post was edited by DaughterofLaketown on May 28 2014, 5:00pm)
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IdrilLalaith
Rivendell
May 28 2014, 5:58pm
Post #18 of 34
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Were Silvan Elves really more fey?
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From what I've read, Tolkien never really gave them much personality, as a culture, aside from running and hiding a lot. Mithrellas running away from her mortal family seems pretty consistent with this, too.
TolkienBlog.com
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HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell
May 28 2014, 6:06pm
Post #19 of 34
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Why is Imrahil left ouf of the pantheon of Elvish Maiden-Man unions?
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I always wondered why Tolkien never went into more detail on the supposed Elvish blood of Imrahil I would normally discount this as a "tale" within a tale, or in other words the tales told within Tolkien's legendarium, such as Bilbo's mention of wild were-worms of the East. But that fact that Legolas recognized Elvish blood in his line should not be discarded so lightly.
So if it is the case that Imrahil had Elvish blood, wouldn't this contradict with the three Man-Elvish unions? Or maybe the major three only counted because the female Elf was of a higher lineage? Maybe there were frequent, though not common, unions between men and "lower" elves, such as the Avari.
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
May 28 2014, 6:08pm
Post #20 of 34
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English history must have been perplexing . . .
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Most of the upper nobility was not referred to by name, but by their seat of power; hence Buckingham, Essex, Gloucester, etc. And how very confusing it must have been.
“I’m going to visit Buckingham” (A place/person?)
“I’m going to punch Buckingham in the eye” (A person.)
Of course this would all depend on the context of the conversation taking place.
But much much more straightforward would be “I’m going to visit Buckingham.”
Or, “I’m going to punch King James in the eye.”
We (or they) would never substitute “Edoras” for “Theoden”; no reason, no sense.
DaughterofLaketown: Please don’t take this as a “war”, just a friendly (I hope) discussion. This has been an interesting posting and I have learned from it. Thank you. BG 
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IdrilLalaith
Rivendell
May 28 2014, 6:16pm
Post #21 of 34
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I think it was always related to title
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I think you would only call a noble by his seat of power if that was part of his title. So you would never refer to Mr. Darcy from Pride and Prejudice as Pemberly (the name of his home), because he didn't have a title.
I spent some time poking around Wikipedia trying to find examples, but I don't know enough about the correct terms. Can anyone more knowledgeable than me shed any light on this?
TolkienBlog.com
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Elthir
Grey Havens
May 28 2014, 6:17pm
Post #22 of 34
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... the three unions concerned the Eldar, so even if the legend be true then Mithrellas need not be an Elda. And technically most of the Elves of Lorien were East-elves and not Eldar according to [emphasis on 'according to'] The Lord of the Rings.
Although 'technically' again, for example, Arwen was one of the Pereldar and still counted
(This post was edited by Elthir on May 28 2014, 6:19pm)
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HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell
May 28 2014, 6:27pm
Post #23 of 34
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There might have been quite a few unions between men and Avari. However, would such offspring have a choice between mortality and immortality. And would Avari males be take female humans for wives? It seems always the Man taking an Elf maiden in Tolkien's world.
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Elthir
Grey Havens
May 28 2014, 6:39pm
Post #24 of 34
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I think Elf Man unions were very rare, based on some statements made by Tolkien in his letters.
Thus I go with the noted unions, plus the possibility of the 'Imrahil legend' being tue. Can Legolas be wrong here?
You decide 
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