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DaughterofLaketown
Gondor
May 27 2014, 3:25am
Post #1 of 34
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The Arwen thread on marriage traditions in eleven culture it was brought to light that children are had very early on. Any theories as to why? Also it seems a given in all of these stories in both the race of men and elves to have children at all. Thoughts?
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
May 27 2014, 4:04am
Post #2 of 34
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Legends and sagas aren't about childrearing.
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Heroes are out slaying dragons and confronting evil, both in traditional legends and contemporary fantasy. Readers are often advised of the heritage of their heroes, but these are basically action tales.
In fact, Tolkien told us much more about the family life of his Elves (and, to a lesser extent, Men) than many authors in this genre. Indeed, his essay "Laws and Customs of the Eldar" (Morgoth's Ring) goes into great detail about this topic. We know a lot more about Elven mating customs than, say, Beowulf. As far as when they have kids and how many, remember that they are immortal: if the old don't die, you really need not to produce too many children!
But literary heroes are usually solitary folk. Bilbo and Frodo are both single figures, and Arwen is a remote figure in most of Aragorn's life, as is true in most of the legendary sagas.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
May 27 2014, 3:07pm
Post #4 of 34
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Even though Elves are essentially immortal...
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The Arwen thread on marriage traditions in eleven culture it was brought to light that children are had very early on. Any theories as to why? Also it seems a given in all of these stories in both the race of men and elves to have children at all. Thoughts?
It is better for Elves to rear children sooner rather than later. Life is still uncertain and even the wisest can't be sure of what the future holds.
As to your second line of thought, many of the Men and Elves of the legendarium are rulers and must produce heirs. Thus, children.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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IdrilLalaith
Rivendell
May 27 2014, 6:33pm
Post #5 of 34
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In "Laws and Customs of the Eldar," it is said that Elves lose interesting in having children as they grow older. I believe it also says that to want children is to have children, as far as Elves are concerned.
I believe Fëanor was considered unusual in that he fathered seven sons. I don't believe that any other Elf is recorded to have as many children (five seems to be the max). If wanted children = having children, why would Fëanor (and let's not forget Nerdanel) have been considered unusual?
TolkienBlog.com
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
May 27 2014, 8:06pm
Post #6 of 34
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That also makes Arwen and her brothers unusual for waiting so long to wed (and, as far as we know, neither Elladan nor Elrohir ever did marry or sire children), although as Half-elves they may already be considered to be exceptions to the rule. It makes a certain sense for Elrond's children to wait until after they have chosen between Elven immortality and the doom of Men before starting families.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
May 27 2014, 8:54pm
Post #7 of 34
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Another wee point to consider...
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In Laws and Customs it is also said that the Elves would not marry during times of war. This is exemplified in the Athrabeth, when Aegnor cannot wed Andreth, even if he wished to.
Laws and Customs among the Eldar is found the HoME, Book X: Morgoth's Ring. I'd highly recommend it to anyone as the most useful of the series, as it contains:
"Annals of Aman" — Detailed chronology from the creation of the world through the end of the First Age.
"Laws and Customs among the Eldar" — Several essays and legends on the Eldar, particularly mating and naming customs, and Tolkien's conceptions of the soul and body.
"Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth" — A discussion between the Finrod and Andreth, a mortal woman, about the tragedy of death, immortality, and the pains and suffering of Elves and Men. It also contains a note about the healing of death, Resurrection ,and the Incarnation.
"Tale of Adanel" — The Middle-earth version of the tale of the Original Sin and the Fall of Men. Appended to the Athrabeth, it is a version of the story where it is told by Andreth to Finrod as a story about the past of Men.
"Myths Transformed" — Several fragments on Morgoth, Sauron, and the origin of the Orcs. This section is frequently cited in discussions, and claims to represent Tolkien later-evolved views on some central topics.
It can be hard (Not to mention expensive!!) to collect all twelve volumes, (And even harder to get a matching set. I am still hunting for a matching Volume I  ), but even if you get no other, I think the book will be useful to anyone who wants to go beyond the published works.
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Maciliel
Valinor
May 27 2014, 9:40pm
Post #8 of 34
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if elves do not marry in times of war, then there should not have been marriages for most of the time morgoth was around. certainly from the time the noldorian exiles landed on the shores of the mainland, there existed a time of war. so, no elves married? what of eol and aredhel? idril and tuor? elwing and earendil? luthien and beren? dior and nimloth? and so forth.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
May 27 2014, 9:47pm
Post #9 of 34
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That is why there were such long periods of peace while Morgoth was beseiged. 'War' in my interpretation would then be 'active military compaigns'.
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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CuriousG
Half-elven
May 27 2014, 9:51pm
Post #10 of 34
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"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of..."
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Never mind. I think it's confusing too.
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Maciliel
Valinor
May 27 2014, 10:01pm
Post #11 of 34
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so, was aegnor not completely honest with andreth?
it does bug me that these elf-edain marriages are all female elf-male edain.
cheers --
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Laineth
Lorien
May 27 2014, 10:14pm
Post #12 of 34
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The Law and Customs essay says, "In days of old, in times of trouble, in flight and exile and wandering, such marriages were often made."
In the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth Finrod says, "This is time of war, Andreth, and in such days the Elves do not wed or bear child;(21)" But Note 21 only says see Law and Customs about elves only having children in times of peace.
And while I know the Law and Customs essay says that elves marry and have children young, do we actually have any examples of this?
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IdrilLalaith
Rivendell
May 27 2014, 10:19pm
Post #13 of 34
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Elrond himself was unusual. He remained unmarried throughout the entirety of the Second Age. While I'm sure there were other Elves who did this, I don't believe it's been recorded.
TolkienBlog.com
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IdrilLalaith
Rivendell
May 27 2014, 10:21pm
Post #14 of 34
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The Finweans, at least, seem to have married and reproduced fairly quickly. Of course, the actual years are a little fuzzy, so I'm not sure exactly how quickly it happened. Finwë for sure was eager to have kids, which is why he asked permission to remarry.
TolkienBlog.com
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IdrilLalaith
Rivendell
May 28 2014, 12:18am
Post #16 of 34
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I'm not sure if anyone else has different thoughts
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I've always interpreted this to mean that Elves don't struggle with infertility. If Elves want to have children, there's nothing stopping them from a physical/internal standpoint. Everything always works the way it should. 
TolkienBlog.com
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DaughterofLaketown
Gondor
May 28 2014, 12:25am
Post #17 of 34
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Thanks for that. I guess I have to have things spelt out.  
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Laineth
Lorien
May 28 2014, 1:16am
Post #18 of 34
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That's true, as they can't get sick/diseases/etc. but also there is no "unplanned" pregnancy - they have to consciously put energy into creating a child during lovemaking. Laws and Customs says,
As for the begetting and bearing of children: a year passes between the begetting and the birth of an elf-child, so that the days of both are the same or nearly so, and it is the day of begetting that is remembered year by year.
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Also the Eldar say that in the begetting, and still more in the bearing of children, greater share and strength of their being, in mind and in body, goes forth than in the making of mortal children.
So the child's fëa is present from conception, as well, for them to celebrate begetting as the beginning of life.
Also, due to how completely exceptional Míriel's situation was, I don't think birth can weary an elf out to the point of death - Fëanor is made out to be a 'once in the lifetime of arda' situation.
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DaughterofLaketown
Gondor
May 28 2014, 3:29am
Post #19 of 34
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Yeah. No hate on the professor but I just didnt buy her dying because of his birth
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squire
Half-elven
May 28 2014, 4:10am
Post #20 of 34
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I don't think Tolkien had much thought about Miriel for her own sake
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As far as I can tell, he really, really wanted to do a story about jealous half-brothers and royal stepmothers, in the grand legendary tradition. I'm not sure when he realized that plot didn't make as much sense with an immortal race, which doesn't believe in divorce and never suffers widowhood. So Miriel had to go for some extraordinary reason and the whole "Feanor was a flame too bright for her soul" thing got added. Just as you "don't buy" that kind of thing, neither did the Valar (as seen in their rather extraordinary dialogue about whether Finwe can remarry, that anchors the entire "Laws and Customs of the Eldar" section in HoME X).
On the other hand, it may not have been the Elven thing at all that does Miriel in; he very often has his mortal heroes' Mom characters lie down to die in a pile of leaves somewhere, and Miriel could simply be an immortal outlier in that tradition.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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DaughterofLaketown
Gondor
May 28 2014, 4:21am
Post #21 of 34
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Lol I never bought the whole lie down in flowers thing either
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On the other hand, it may not have been the Elven thing at all that does Miriel in; he very often has his mortal heroes' Mom characters lie down to die in a pile of leaves somewhere, and Miriel could simply be an immortal outlier in that tradition.
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IdrilLalaith
Rivendell
May 28 2014, 5:52pm
Post #22 of 34
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When did the idea of Míriel's death first appear in the mythos? I'm trying to remember if it was an early idea or not. I'll have to poke around in Lost Tales to see.
TolkienBlog.com
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Elthir
Grey Havens
May 28 2014, 6:43pm
Post #23 of 34
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If I recall correctly, I think it was a late-ish idea. Later 1950s maybe?
Don't quote me on that! I'll say I never said it, if wrong... and I'm probably unright 
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Elthir
Grey Havens
May 29 2014, 5:54pm
Post #24 of 34
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Looks like I was wrong about probably being unright. Or at least I was right-ish. Hammond and Scull note [based on the details given in The History of Middle-Earth series]...
'A major new element now introduced is that the children of Finwe, the ruler of the Noldor, do not have the same mother. Tolkien inserts into the old text of the Quenta Silmarillion a rider with the new story of the 'death' of Feanor's mother, Miriel, after his birth, and the refusal of her spirit to return to her body; Finwe's second marriage to Indis of the Vanyar; and Feanor's resentment of his half-brothers.'
This they date as: '?Late 1958 --?mid-1960', from Hammond and Scull, Chronology, JRR Tolkien Companion and Guide
See also Morgoth's Ring. Also, Miriel's 'death' is mentioned in the draft continuation for letter 211, thus letter 212 -- with letter 211 dated as October 1958.
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Maciliel
Valinor
May 30 2014, 12:51am
Post #25 of 34
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yes, this is said by tolkien clearly
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... that -- for elves -- to want children is to have them. which makes for no infertility, but also some interesting things to consider.
so, galadriel and celeborn apparently were happy to stop at one. that strike me as very interesting.
eol and aredhel -- one. also interesting.
why only one? if one of the gifts of eru in arda was to populate it, many elves -- who are by nature tied to arda -- did not feel the need to do so. or perhaps, like in the case of aredhel, a small family may imply marital discord.
it has also been stated (by tolkien) that as the ages wore on, the elves gave birth to fewer and fewer children. i always got the feeling that was tied to their physical waning / fading, but is this also reflective of elves as a race, not wanting to continue? was having children too much change for them (it has been stated that they are resistant to change)?
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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So glad to see you are here with us again Elizabeth
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