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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Will BOFTA be the greatest cinematic battle of all time?
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NateGate
Rivendell

May 26 2014, 8:24pm

Post #1 of 47 (2272 views)
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Will BOFTA be the greatest cinematic battle of all time? Can't Post

According to PJ, its going to be, but idk. This is the first time the success of a movie is really going to be completely pitted on the battle, its in the title.
Will PJ be able to put the Return of the King and/or Narnia battles to shame? What do you think?


Xanaseb
Tol Eressea


May 26 2014, 8:41pm

Post #2 of 47 (924 views)
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Let's really hope so, haha. [In reply to] Can't Post

This's coming from a pacifist.

I'm still a sucker for battles in films...

And what's this about comparing to Narnia?? Of -course- it'll be better than those ones!!

I'm still holding up for a Necrosmaug joining the battle though (jks) Sly

"So your own praise will forever keep your name green,
Both here on Earth and on the stage of the stars" - J.G.Kittel, writing about the composer Jan Dismas Zelenka (1740)
Zelenka music sample link
__________________________________________

Join us over at Barliman's chat all day, any day!
__________________________________________




(This post was edited by Xanaseb on May 26 2014, 8:43pm)


SafeUnderHill
Lorien

May 26 2014, 9:12pm

Post #3 of 47 (827 views)
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I doubt it [In reply to] Can't Post

It would be quite difficult to be so. Let's hope we're blown away however in December. And remember there's many things other than the battle that can impress us and make the film successful.


Arannir
Valinor


May 26 2014, 10:13pm

Post #4 of 47 (789 views)
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Hardly. [In reply to] Can't Post

It may very well be one of the best battles put to the big screen.

However, I cannot see PJ outdoing his own Battle of the Hornburg which is simply fantasy-battle-legend in composition, rise of tension and delivery.

When it comes to cinematic battles in general, not just fantasy, battles such as the D-Day scene in "Saving Private Ryan" are also top-notch (especially when it comes to showing the true horror of war and immersion) but hard to bring into any kind of order or ranking.

"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



(This post was edited by Arannir on May 26 2014, 10:13pm)


DaughterofLaketown
Gondor


May 26 2014, 10:20pm

Post #5 of 47 (743 views)
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Well I hope it isn't. [In reply to] Can't Post

Because in proportion to ROTK it will make Pelennor look like a cake walk. The Hobbit battle should not be bigger than that or any of the Silmarillion battles.


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


May 26 2014, 10:48pm

Post #6 of 47 (791 views)
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Don'tcha know... [In reply to] Can't Post

Smaug will be possessed by the Necromancer and join the battle, breathing a liquid green shadow flame. All Men, Dwarves, and Elves will quail in fear. But then... Tauriel will take out the black arrow (Borrowed from Bard. They're a couple you know.Wink) and shoot Smaug's weak spot. The revelation of this steamy affair will send Kili into a jealous mad rage, and he will subsequently kill himself in grief. War will resume as Thorin and Fili fight to kill the She-Elf who did this to Kili. Meanwhile, the wounded Necro-Smaug will fly haphazardly back to Mordor. Barely making it he will expend one last breath of flame, lighting the Eye above Barad-dur! Add a Credit Roll with an original song titled 'Hey there Tauriel', by the Plain White T's, and it's gold!!

It'll totally happen like that!!Laugh

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea


May 26 2014, 11:26pm

Post #7 of 47 (696 views)
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Seriously doubt it. [In reply to] Can't Post

Probably be way too much digital double cgi nonsense.


Morthoron
Gondor


May 26 2014, 11:27pm

Post #8 of 47 (727 views)
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I certainly hope not... [In reply to] Can't Post

There were three battles in the LotR film trilogy that by all measurables should dwarf (pun intended) BoFA:

Battle of the Hornburg
Battle of Pelennor Field
The Siege of Barad-dur in the War of the Last Alliance

To put BoFA on the same level ignores the history of Middle-earth and presents a continuity problem with Peter Jackson's films, eliminating the dire nature of the more important battles I listed above.

Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.



DaughterofLaketown
Gondor


May 26 2014, 11:31pm

Post #9 of 47 (691 views)
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This is exactly what I mean [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
There were three battles in the LotR film trilogy that by all measurables should dwarf (pun intended) BoFA:

To put BoFA on the same level ignores the history of Middle-earth and presents a continuity problem with Peter Jackson's films, eliminating the dire nature of the more important battles I listed above.

Quote


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea


May 26 2014, 11:41pm

Post #10 of 47 (647 views)
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I don't know... [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think Peter Jackson has that kind of control, restraint, or editorial judgement any longer. I think it's going to be an all out over the top cgi-fest.

One thing i think it won't have is the emotional weight and power that the final battles of the LotR films had, even with all the character deaths (characters that i hardly care about at this point). He seems to have lost that ability, too.


lurtz2010
Rohan

May 27 2014, 12:33am

Post #11 of 47 (688 views)
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I don't get why people think it shouldn't match the LOTR battles [In reply to] Can't Post

The stakes are lower but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be as intense if not more than helms deep or the battle at minas tirith. How big the armies are hardly means much.


Name
Rohan


May 27 2014, 12:56am

Post #12 of 47 (665 views)
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Exactly. The greatest fantasy battle ever put to screen could involve only 500 people [In reply to] Can't Post

It just depends on how you portray it.

How many Tolkien fans does it take to change a light bulb?

"Change? Oh my god, what do you mean change?! Never, never, never......"


AncalagontheBlack
Rohan

May 27 2014, 1:04am

Post #13 of 47 (593 views)
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Agree [In reply to] Can't Post

The Free Peoples army will be relatively small compared to the hosts in the LotR trilogy, however PJ could go massive in the sheer size of the orc and goblin horde. In the book, I believe it stated that 3/5 of the orcs and goblins of the misty mountains were slain during the BoFA. That could be a very large number indeed. It was only the Eagles and then in the final hour Beorn himself that allowed them to prevail against the orc/goblin army.


Avandel
Valinor

May 27 2014, 1:59am

Post #14 of 47 (616 views)
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Sounds good to me [In reply to] Can't Post

Gonna get advance tickets Evil


Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor


May 27 2014, 2:27am

Post #15 of 47 (580 views)
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lurtz2010 and Name said it best! [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
lurtz2010:
The stakes are lower but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be as intense if not more than helms deep or the battle at minas tirith. How big the armies are hardly means much.

&

It just depends on how you portray it.

I don't see why a smaller-scale battle cannot be the greatest cinematic battle just because in terms of size, it's not on par with the wars and battles in LotR or Silm, or any other battles elsewhere. Scale is not the be-all and end all, especially in medieval settings, not modernity or space operas. Plus BoFA is different from the other ME wars because we know the original intention of the hosts was not war... well except Dain and the Goblin-hordes... so anyway!

The Elves and the Lakemen did not bring the war machines (for ref, this short thread about that here) to the party, not expecting aggression but treasure ecstasy Smile and maybe having to fight off some two-bit robbers or treasure squatters (OT: would there be any other race or interested party that could have staked a claim before Thranduil and Bard got there? Why did they need to bring in the muscle for a treasure haul, excepting sheer immensity of said haul?). But this is where it can be unique and give us a different take of cinematic battle. What do you do when you've brought an army without expecting to go to war but ended up in the scrimmage of the decade in the vicinity?


Fan of both books and movies. Oh, and it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.

Thranduil Appreciation: I, II, III, IV, V

"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBofTA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies


SafeUnderHill
Lorien

May 27 2014, 7:03am

Post #16 of 47 (500 views)
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Erm [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't see any continuity errors at all. This is the final film of the saga, to expect them to restrain from trying to go out with a bang seems ludicrous.


SafeUnderHill
Lorien

May 27 2014, 7:06am

Post #17 of 47 (504 views)
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. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I don't think Peter Jackson has that kind of control, restraint, or editorial judgement any longer. I think it's going to be an all out over the top cgi-fest.

One thing i think it won't have is the emotional weight and power that the final battles of the LotR films had, even with all the character deaths (characters that i hardly care about at this point). He seems to have lost that ability, too.


Do you mean like the battle of the Pelennor fields? That used lots of CGI (some of the digital armies looked awful in wide shots. Also, you'd probably be best to give the film miss as you seem to be setting yourself up for disappointment.

I also remember them saying these films get closer in tone to LOTR. So hopefully it will have a grittier and darker feel.


(This post was edited by SafeUnderHill on May 27 2014, 7:09am)


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea


May 27 2014, 7:26am

Post #18 of 47 (499 views)
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I would say [In reply to] Can't Post

that there were a few moments in RotK where PJ went ott (it's gotten worse with each PJ film since FotR, including his non-LotR films), but mainly i'm thinking of Legolas taking down the Mumakil, and especially the surfing down it's trunk. That's the sort of thing i fear in the Bo5A. It's not the cgi that i fear-- i actually love special/visual effects. It's when it's over relied upon and overused for cheap gags that i don't like. Take the barrels sequence. I actually liked the first part of it. But when Legolas was riding down the rapids with each foot on a different dwarfs head while shooting orcs... i mean, come on. The Hobbit films have ten times more stuff like that than RotK had. The last twenty to thirty minutes of DoS was that kind of stuff. It's dumb and cheap and lazy and i don't like it.

And yes, i am debating whether to even bother seeing it in the theater. I kind of don't want to, but it is the last one, and i have friends that will want to go. And i do have a faint hope that it will be the best of the three. So i'll decide when the time comes.


Old Pilgrim
Rivendell


May 27 2014, 7:50am

Post #19 of 47 (518 views)
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In PJ's perception sure [In reply to] Can't Post

but I don't believe it will be so epic and astounding in the end for one simple reason: too much CGI and too few realism.

Battles in LOTR and some other historic movie were so great mostly because of two facts: enough realism to make them believable and emotions that should be a major part of every battle. I watched Battle of the Blackwater from GOT recently and it was splendid despite their low budget since it concentrated most on major characters and their feelings.

While I like Hobbit movies, their is too much CGI in them for my taste so I fear this battle could turn very bad if it won't build on emotions and main characters despite how big it will be.


Arannir
Valinor


May 27 2014, 8:11am

Post #20 of 47 (516 views)
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Biggest is not the same as greatest ;) [In reply to] Can't Post

 

"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



Peterthorn of Rohan
Rivendell


May 27 2014, 9:23am

Post #21 of 47 (477 views)
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It will be difficult to overcome Helms Deep... [In reply to] Can't Post

but there is sth quite special about this battle and I dont know what it is...the number of armies or because it will be the last battle in a middle earth film(for a number of years)


Bombadil
Half-elven


May 27 2014, 9:31am

Post #22 of 47 (537 views)
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NOTHING in Film History can BEAT... "Helm's Deep" [In reply to] Can't Post

so it just needs to be different...

In Snow instead of Rain
In Dale, Ravenhill,
The MOUNTAINsides

Avalanches killing hundreds of
Gundabad ORCS?

cold, cold, cold,...
COLD Blooded Murder..

CHECK out the first 13 minutes
of "Galdiator" with Russell Crowe
for a PREVIEW?

Bom


Xanaseb
Tol Eressea


May 27 2014, 11:19am

Post #23 of 47 (466 views)
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hahaha, that would be quite an ending to knock people's breath out XD // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

"So your own praise will forever keep your name green,
Both here on Earth and on the stage of the stars" - J.G.Kittel, writing about the composer Jan Dismas Zelenka (1740)
Zelenka music sample link
__________________________________________

Join us over at Barliman's chat all day, any day!
__________________________________________




Xanaseb
Tol Eressea


May 27 2014, 11:20am

Post #24 of 47 (433 views)
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I must say, I think I've revised my opinion/hopes... to beat Helm's Deep would be rather impossible, but hey, you never know. [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm usually one to raise my expectations a bit too high, ... sadly for me :P Tongue

"So your own praise will forever keep your name green,
Both here on Earth and on the stage of the stars" - J.G.Kittel, writing about the composer Jan Dismas Zelenka (1740)
Zelenka music sample link
__________________________________________

Join us over at Barliman's chat all day, any day!
__________________________________________




Noria
Rohan

May 27 2014, 12:59pm

Post #25 of 47 (441 views)
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The greatest battle [In reply to] Can't Post

In the geopolitical situation that has been set up in The Hobbit movies, the BoFA may be the most important battle, at least in its time and place. For the people fighting it is the greatest battle because they are there in the moment, fighting for their lives and their peoples. If that can be conveyed to us, it will be great. But I suspect that BoFA will not be entirely about the actual battle but will focus as much on the politics between dwarves, elves and men beforehand.

I donít think it matters if there are greater of lesser numbers at the BoFA than at the battles of LotR, or bigger stunts and gags, if Legolas wind surfs with a giant bat or something. All that matters for the first trilogy is that the battle was won by the free peoples, Bilbo and Gandalf survived (and Legolas Wink) and some level of harmony was restored between dwarves, elves and men, at least enough for the Council of Elrond to be possible.

Iím OK with the CGI because for me the digital orcs are not any more or any less convincing than the guys in masks in LotR Ė they are just different. A lot of the larger forces were digital in LotR, were they not?

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