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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Chapter of the Week: The Quest for Erebor
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Dwarewien
Rohan


May 24 2014, 10:25pm

Post #1 of 28 (1300 views)
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Chapter of the Week: The Quest for Erebor Can't Post

Now we move on to the first CHOW thread for the theatrical version of DoS. I'm sure we'll get back to the missed chapter for AUJ, but in the meantime, it's on to DoS.

Note: Since I've been busy with my back story fan fiction (I posted a link to it in Fan Art), I didn't get around to saving any screencaps (yet again), so feel free to add some to your own posts if you wish.Wink

DoS begins with it raining in Bree, as we see a familiar face chomping on a carrot.

1. What do you think of PJ's cameo? Were you surprised that the first person we see in DoS is that of the director?

In the next scene, we see a figure (which later turns out to be Thorin) making his way to the Prancing Pony inn, obviously being followed by the two ruffian type characters that we see later.

2. What do you think of Thorin's entrance? Do you think he's aware that he's being followed?

Next, we finally make it inside the Prancing Pony inn, with all sorts of activity, including an ancestor of the black cat we saw in Fellowship.

3. Why do you think there are so many black cats in Bree? Is it that unlucky of a town, or do they simply have a mouse or a rat problem (meaning the rodents, not unsavory characters)?

Next we see someone bump into one of the waitresses (who is played by none other than Peter Jackson's daughter, Katie) on her way to give Thorin his order.

4. Do you think that some of the customers of the Prancing Pony are rude on purpose, or was this simply an accident, since there seem to be a lot of people in the inn at the time?

Now it seems that Thorin is looking at the other customers while he's enjoying his meal. This is when we see the two ruffian type characters again, obviously with some type of vendetta against our exiled king. We see Thorin reach for his sword as the two approach him.

5. What do you think Thorin is thinking at this moment? Is it that of annoyance of being interrupted, or was he prepared for such an eventuality?

This is when Gandalf appears at the nick of time, making the two ruffians back off (obviously, they had dealings with the wizard before), as he asks if he can join Thorin. He then introduces himself and tells Thorin why he is there.

6. Do you think Gandalf was really surprised to see that Thorin was in Bree? Or did he just tell him that so that Thorin wouldn't guess the real reason he seemed to seek him out?

Shortly after, Gandalf tells Thorin it's time to reclaim his homeland, and that Smaug has sat there long enough. He also tells Thorin on the price against his head, and hands him the note written in Black Speech.

7. Do you think that Thorin was aware he was being hunted before Gandalf told him this?

The talk then shifts on to the Arkenstone, and how it will reunite the seven kingdoms of the dwarves. Thorin doesn't think it can be easily reclaimed, until Gandalf tells him that they're going to need a burglar to do the job.

8. Do you think that Thorin had any idea of who Gandalf had in mind, or was he thinking that one of the dwarves could accomplish the task at hand?

I think that's it for this particular chapter.

9. Is there any thing else you wish to discuss about this chapter that I may have missed?

Sorry for going a little too far on the last chapter I hosted, I was going by the screencaps. Since I don't usually rewatch scenes, I mostly do these by memory. I'll try to have some screencaps again for the next chapter I host (but no promises). Things always seem to come up before I have a chance to save them (and make them the proper size in Photobucket).Smile

Far over the Misty Mountains cold
To dungeons deep and caverns old
We must away, ere break of day
To find our long-forgotten gold.





Avandel
Half-elven

May 25 2014, 1:13am

Post #2 of 28 (860 views)
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Love the Bree scene [In reply to] Can't Post

Don't even know for myself WHY it's so important to me (and in the book too) but even tho it had been rumored/said it would be in DOS, I nearly shrieked with excitement during the midnight show when it was obvious it was really going to happen. Anyway:

DoS begins with it raining in Bree, as we see a familiar face chomping on a carrot.
1. What do you think of PJ's cameo? Were you surprised that the first person we see in DoS is that of the director?

Thought it was a delightful and amusing touch, and completely appropriate as I feel I owe this man so much, for bringing the Hobbit to the screen the way he has. Love his expression - PJ rocks!

In the next scene, we see a figure (which later turns out to be Thorin) making his way to the Prancing Pony inn, obviously being followed by the two ruffian type characters that we see later.
2. What do you think of Thorin's entrance? Do you think he's aware that he's being followed?

Loved his entrance, as think it underscored 1) a kind of sad loneliness of a wandering dwarf/exiled king and 2) just the toughness of dwarves in general, being out traveling on a night like that. Yes, I think Thorin had wandered a lot and knew he was being followed - these guys don't seem too bright, and any warrior/traveler "in the wild" probably instinctively listens to the patterns of noise and footfalls - sloppy footfalls in the mud keeping pace with you is something you would probably pick up on, as we see with the first glimpse of Thorin's face. Though I don't think Thorin knows WHY there's trouble following him, I suspect it's not a new experience based on his expression when he reaches for his sword. I suspect it's probably not terribly unusual for someone stupid to try to pick a fight with a dwarf, because of their size.

Next, we finally make it inside the Prancing Pony inn, with all sorts of activity, including an ancestor of the black cat we saw in Fellowship.
3. Why do you think there are so many black cats in Bree? Is it that unlucky of a town, or do they simply have a mouse or a rat problem (meaning the rodents, not unsavory characters)?

There's only two that I know of, the black cat in LOTR and this nod back. But assuming this is a male cat in the Hobbit, it would drive off other males and pass along his genes. In a village/bar/stables etc. it's smart to have cats to deal with rodents going for stores of food, as the area seems pretty rural. Not sure that a black cat has the significance in ME as it does in "Western" culture?

Next we see someone bump into one of the waitresses (who is played by none other than Peter Jackson's daughter, Katie) on her way to give Thorin his order.
4. Do you think that some of the customers of the Prancing Pony are rude on purpose, or was this simply an accident, since there seem to be a lot of people in the inn at the time?

Well, it's a bar of sorts with people quaffing a lot of ale (LOL to take the chill off of course). So I guess I'd be more surprised if nobody bumped into someone else!

Now it seems that Thorin is looking at the other customers while he's enjoying his meal. This is when we see the two ruffian type characters again, obviously with some type of vendetta against our exiled king. We see Thorin reach for his sword as the two approach him.

5. What do you think Thorin is thinking at this moment? Is it that of annoyance of being interrupted, or was he prepared for such an eventuality?

A mixture of battle-ready adrenaline and annoyance from the expression on his face - again, I suspect this isn't the first time Thorin, or any other dwarf, has been harassed by the stupid. (Kind of think it's a pity we don't get to see Thorin take them out, preferably with a knee-cap or some such thing).

This is when Gandalf appears at the nick of time, making the two ruffians back off (obviously, they had dealings with the wizard before), as he asks if he can join Thorin. He then introduces himself and tells Thorin why he is there.

6. Do you think Gandalf was really surprised to see that Thorin was in Bree? Or did he just tell him that so that Thorin wouldn't guess the real reason he seemed to seek him out?

Oh, no, I don't think Gandalf was surprised at all, and think he was probably tracking Thorin somehow. And Thorin doesn't buy the "twinkly winsome old man act" anyway. He knows who Gandalf is - all that's just Gandalf defusing a battle-ready Thorin and giving time for a time-out.

Shortly after, Gandalf tells Thorin it's time to reclaim his homeland, and that Smaug has sat there long enough. He also tells Thorin on the price against his head, and hands him the note written in Black Speech.
7. Do you think that Thorin was aware he was being hunted before Gandalf told him this?

No, I think there is someone always ready to mess with a dwarf, possibly, but I don't think Thorin knew he was specifically targeted - tho he seems angry but not freaked out by it. A king is always going to have some kind of enemy.

The talk then shifts on to the Arkenstone, and how it will reunite the seven kingdoms of the dwarves. Thorin doesn't think it can be easily reclaimed, until Gandalf tells him that they're going to need a burglar to do the job.

8. Do you think that Thorin had any idea of who Gandalf had in mind, or was he thinking that one of the dwarves could accomplish the task at hand?

Absolutely not. We never see it but I think Gandalf had to do a huge amount of persuading to get Thorin to go along with the idea - and we see a lot of this in Bag End re Bilbo. Am sure the clannish dwarves would never consider an outside race being part of this (save Gandalf) let alone an insignificant race like halflings.

I think that's it for this particular chapter.

9. Is there any thing else you wish to discuss about this chapter that I may have missed?

I thought the whole scene was beautifully done, and even though a short scene once again wonderful performances by Sir Ian and RA. Once again RA's face, eyes, voice are able to show multiple layers of emotion and depth - ranging from sorrow to scarcely-dared hope/longing mixed with apprehension, intelligence and anger (*cough* plenty of "subtlety" LOL). RA is just amazing and if I were PJ, I would be sticking a camera in Thorin's face as often as I could. What a VOICE, too, used here to perfection. What this actor is able to convey with his eyes is incredible.

Sir Ian's Gandalf cracks me up at the beginning with his twinkly old man bit, all the way through to the expression on his face, and the way he says "Yes, it does. Which is why we are going to need a burglar..." What a master of his craft Sir Ian is.

Significantly tho, this is where Gandalf offers to help Thorin, and where I have some real issues, book and movie - in that in this scene to me it's obvious that Thorin would not have initiated this quest without Gandlalf's offer of assistance.Mad
Another reason I'll always be on Thorin's side, seeing as he had to deal with things while Gandalf is off to save Middle Earth - will make for interesting discussions, past and future.

I appreciated that the Prancing Pony was just that, without the LOTR grimness revisited. Just the village folks on a rainy night having drinks and jokes. Amazing sets - the pigs carved on the pillar! and makeup/costumes - Gandalf's nails are cracked and dirty, as would be suspected from someone on the road, and Thorin's "pelt" is damp as is his hair. Plus the homely food and the nice touch of Thorin's pipe smoking in a bowl of sand, I guess it is.

And finally, I loved how the scene segues into our adorable Hobbit, peering over the rocks. IMO just really great meshing of "past" and "present" and most of all the only thing I could have asked of the Bree scene is that it went on longer, but that's true for all the Hobbit movie scenes, pretty much - well, except the healing scene *ahem*.

"Looking back on Bag End, it's...it's like we're just so innocent. We were all so happy...in that place, about to start this journey" - Richard Armitage, The Hobbit Appendices.

"If this is to end in fire, then we will all burn together" - Thorin, The Desolation of Smaug.




pettytyrant101
Lorien


May 25 2014, 5:17am

Post #3 of 28 (815 views)
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So it begins, again.. [In reply to] Can't Post

1. What do you think of PJ's cameo? Were you surprised that the first person we see in DoS is that of the director?

Its not the most subtle cameo in cinema history is it? 'Oh look its Pj mugging straight into the camera' was my initial thought, followed by, "about 30 seconds in and they feel the need to remind us of LotR's already?''

2. What do you think of Thorin's entrance? Do you think he's aware that he's being followed?

I think he would have to be stupid not to notice, they are hardly the most subtle pursuers, besides PJ gives us so many 'Thorin looks suspiciously over his shoulder' shots its obvious he knows he is being followed, especially just before he enters the inn.

3. Why do you think there are so many black cats in Bree? Is it that unlucky of a town, or do they simply have a mouse or a rat problem (meaning the rodents, not unsavory characters)?

Because PJ cant leave call backs to LotR's well enough alone.

4. Do you think that some of the customers of the Prancing Pony are rude on purpose, or was this simply an accident, since there seem to be a lot of people in the inn at the time?

There is a general problem with PJ's Bree- it always seems to be night and raining because it was night and raining when they were there in LotR's and PJ's likes to assume is audience is so stupid that if he was to present Bree on a nice day they would be unable to recognise it, even with a caption and the same inn.
On the plus side at least the inn has hobbits in it now as it always should have- shame they didn't have any in FotR however as now it makes one wonder what happened to them all in-between.
And a shame the set designers did not liaison closer with the effects people- as in all the close up shots the streets of Bree are muddy, wet and look like dirt roads, and in all the wide effects shots the streets are clean and clearly cobbled.


5. What do you think Thorin is thinking at this moment? Is it that of annoyance of being interrupted, or was he prepared for such an eventuality?

I'd say its played more with annoyance than anything else, although you have to wonder what would have happened if Gandalf hadn't turned up- I mean what were those two ruffians going to do? Get into a huge fight with a dwarf in the middle of the inn?
The portrayal of Bree in FotR was slur enough on the good folks of Bree and ole Barliman without this- Bree is not a town full of ruffians and evil doers.
And the two ruffians seem to think they can easily take on one dwarf, but mysteriously for hardened ruffians, one dwarf plus an old man is too much for them and they slink off.

6. Do you think Gandalf was really surprised to see that Thorin was in Bree? Or did he just tell him that so that Thorin wouldn't guess the real reason he seemed to seek him out?

I'd assume he was looking out for him specifically because if they say its chance as in the book they get sued because they dont have rights to UT.
This explains the covering dialogue where Gandalf all but addresses the Tolkien Estate lawyers directly by pointing out its definitely not a chance meeting, absolutely not!


7. Do you think that Thorin was aware he was being hunted before Gandalf told him this?

Certainly before he entered the inn. Does make you wonder why anyone goes to Bree though, given the inns main trade is folk passing through you'd think it would be friendlier.

8. Do you think that Thorin had any idea of who Gandalf had in mind, or was he thinking that one of the dwarves could accomplish the task at hand?

At some point Gandalf must have given Thorin instructions to find Bag End, which Thorin was almost to inept to follow, as he couldn't find the one hobbit hole in the only notable hill there, with a green door with a magic sign on it. But he must have been told at some point.

The writers decided here to give further emphasis on the Arkenstone as a plot devise, its just a shame they came up with such a nonsensical idea.

You need the Akenstone to unite the dwarves, but you cant retake Erebor to get the Arkenstone without reuniting the dwarves.

So just to be clear here- Thorin goes off, has a big meeting with the heads of all the dwarves and lays out his ambitions, and they tell him no, presumably giving their reasons- too dangerous, we are doing all right in the Blue Mountains, its a Tuesday, whatever their reasons are, its a no.
But they add, if you turn up with a shiny jewel we will instantly drop all our objections and do whatever you say because we just cant resist a bit of bling. Really?

And it also raises the question of how the dwarves were united and raised into going to war to try to retake Moria in the flashback, which we are told happened after the loss of Erebor and the Arkenstone. And was infinitely more of a stupid idea than retaking Erebor, yet no one demanded then that Thrain have the Akenstone or they were all going home in a huff.

If they are going to up the Arkenstone in plot importance at least- (a) have it make sense, this does not. (b) dont make it contradict stuff you've already added in.

9. Is there any thing else you wish to discuss about this chapter that I may have missed?

At least its quiet short!

"A lot of our heroes depress me. But when they made this particular hero they didn't give him a gun, they gave him a screwdriver so he could fix things. They didn't give him a tank, or a warship, or an x-wing fighter, they gave him a call box from which you can call for help. And they didn't give him a superpower, or pointy ears or a heat ray, they gave him an extra heart. And that's an extraordinary thing.
There will never come a time when we don't need a hero like the Doctor."- Steven Moffat

(This post was edited by pettytyrant101 on May 25 2014, 5:20am)


DanielLB
Immortal


May 25 2014, 8:20am

Post #4 of 28 (768 views)
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A nice beginning .... [In reply to] Can't Post

1. What do you think of PJ's cameo? Were you surprised that the first person we see in DoS is that of the director?

I think it is fun. It caused quite a stir when the film was released, but if you don't know PJ you would never have guessed it was him. It's no less subtle than any of the other cameos spread throughout the five films.

2. What do you think of Thorin's entrance? Do you think he's aware that he's being followed?

Have I missed something? Do we see Thorin being followed? I always presumed the Squint-eyed Southerner and Ferny Snr were already at Bree before Thorin arrived. It was nice to see Bree again.


3. Why do you think there are so many black cats in Bree? Is it that unlucky of a town, or do they simply have a mouse or a rat problem (meaning the rodents, not unsavory characters)?

Bree is full of ancestors we meet in Fellowship of the Ring - Barliman's father, Ferny's father, the cats father/mother, carrot-man's father ...

PJ likes cats. So that's probably the reason why. And rats. I imagine Bree having a rat infestation.

4. Do you think that some of the customers of the Prancing Pony are rude on purpose, or was this simply an accident, since there seem to be a lot of people in the inn at the time?

They are all fueled by alcohol ... people get rowdy.

5. What do you think Thorin is thinking at this moment? Is it that of annoyance of being interrupted, or was he prepared for such an eventuality?

It seems a bit daft to me. The ruffians could have made it a little less obvious they were after Thorin. They could have sneaked up behind him and stabbed him in the back. Had a fight broken out in the Inn, Thorin wouldn't have a chance.

6. Do you think Gandalf was really surprised to see that Thorin was in Bree? Or did he just tell him that so that Thorin wouldn't guess the real reason he seemed to seek him out?

No. He was probably following Thorin as well.

7. Do you think that Thorin was aware he was being hunted before Gandalf told him this?

I assume not. Camping in the wild may have been a better option for Thorin, if he knew he was being followed. The less people that see him, the less likely his pursuers are able to follow him.

8. Do you think that Thorin had any idea of who Gandalf had in mind, or was he thinking that one of the dwarves could accomplish the task at hand?

Yes, he probably imagined an Elf or a Man to help with the Quest. It's a shame they didn't extend the scene slightly, with Gandalf explaining to Thorin what a Hobbit is, and the benefit of hiring one.

9. Is there any thing else you wish to discuss about this chapter that I may have missed?

I did this for Rivendell, but not for Bree - has anyone compared the shots of the village and the inside of the Prancing Pony to what we see in FOTR? Are there any noticeable differences, or are both sets practically identical?


Sildarion~Valenar
Bree


May 25 2014, 9:47am

Post #5 of 28 (759 views)
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Well, I haven't seen DOS since December. So my memory might be runny... [In reply to] Can't Post

DoS begins with it raining in Bree, as we see a familiar face chomping on a carrot.

1. What do you think of PJ's cameo? Were you surprised that the first person we see in DoS is that of the director?


I am ambivalent. I guess it was fun for many to see him just at the opening. But was there no other role for him than the carrot-man? It's an unnecessary callback to LotR.


In the next scene, we see a figure (which later turns out to be Thorin) making his way to the Prancing Pony inn, obviously being followed by the two ruffian type characters that we see later.

2. What do you think of Thorin's entrance? Do you think he's aware that he's being followed?

I didn't get that he was being followed. But the scene was shot nicely. Very atmospheric.

Next, we finally make it inside the Prancing Pony inn, with all sorts of activity, including an ancestor of the black cat we saw in Fellowship.

3. Why do you think there are so many black cats in Bree? Is it that unlucky of a town, or do they simply have a mouse or a rat problem (meaning the rodents, not unsavory characters)?


Yet another unnecessary callback to LotR. It is this kind of "bridging" which prevents the TH films from being judged on their own.

Next we see someone bump into one of the waitresses (who is played by none other than Peter Jackson's daughter, Katie) on her way to give Thorin his order.

4. Do you think that some of the customers of the Prancing Pony are rude on purpose, or was this simply an accident, since there seem to be a lot of people in the inn at the time?

Bree is totally wrong, both in FotR and DoS. Not AT ALL like the place mentioned in the book.


Now it seems that Thorin is looking at the other customers while he's enjoying his meal. This is when we see the two ruffian type characters again, obviously with some type of vendetta against our exiled king. We see Thorin reach for his sword as the two approach him.

5. What do you think Thorin is thinking at this moment? Is it that of annoyance of being interrupted, or was he prepared for such an eventuality?


I guess he was prepared. But who knows why or how...

This is when Gandalf appears at the nick of time, making the two ruffians back off (obviously, they had dealings with the wizard before), as he asks if he can join Thorin. He then introduces himself and tells Thorin why he is there.

6. Do you think Gandalf was really surprised to see that Thorin was in Bree? Or did he just tell him that so that Thorin wouldn't guess the real reason he seemed to seek him out?


Nope. Gandalf expected to meet Thorin there. As he himself said, later in the scene.

Shortly after, Gandalf tells Thorin it's time to reclaim his homeland, and that Smaug has sat there long enough. He also tells Thorin on the price against his head, and hands him the note written in Black Speech.

7. Do you think that Thorin was aware he was being hunted before Gandalf told him this?

No idea.

The talk then shifts on to the Arkenstone, and how it will reunite the seven kingdoms of the dwarves. Thorin doesn't think it can be easily reclaimed, until Gandalf tells him that they're going to need a burglar to do the job.

8. Do you think that Thorin had any idea of who Gandalf had in mind, or was he thinking that one of the dwarves could accomplish the task at hand?

How would he have any idea?


9. Is there any thing else you wish to discuss about this chapter that I may have missed?

One might think I didn't particularly like the section.
But that'd be wrong. I thought, as is with PJ's prologues, very well shot and directed. Very moody.
And I do like the focusing on Arkenstone, it is one of the more well-thought out changes by PB and J.



(This post was edited by Sildarion~Valenar on May 25 2014, 9:48am)


pettytyrant101
Lorien


May 25 2014, 10:05am

Post #6 of 28 (749 views)
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Except... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

And I do like the focusing on Arkenstone, it is one of the more well-thought out changes by PB and J.



It doesnt make any sense so it cant be very well thought out- whatever objections the dwarves have to retaking Erebor are not going to just disappear because Thorin has found a fancy stone- its not a ring of power, it has no magical abilities to control people or make them do something they dont want to- how is it supposed to work? Is Dain supposed to say "We think its suicide to go up against the dragon, oh you've got the Arkenstone, well in that case we still think its suicide but we will do it anyway?"

And it contradicts what we see in the battle outside Moria- the dwarves united to retake an old ancestral home, without any Arkenstone involved.

I have no problem with them choosing to highlight the Arkenstone more, or even making it the reason they want a thief in the first place- in the book Thorin is hoping to just spy out the lay of things and hopefully reclaim some treasure from the hoard to ease his hearts longing- that's enough- making it into some sort of talisman that makes all dwarves blindly follow whoever has it is just very stupid and not thought through at all.


"A lot of our heroes depress me. But when they made this particular hero they didn't give him a gun, they gave him a screwdriver so he could fix things. They didn't give him a tank, or a warship, or an x-wing fighter, they gave him a call box from which you can call for help. And they didn't give him a superpower, or pointy ears or a heat ray, they gave him an extra heart. And that's an extraordinary thing.
There will never come a time when we don't need a hero like the Doctor."- Steven Moffat

(This post was edited by pettytyrant101 on May 25 2014, 10:09am)


boldog
Rohan


May 25 2014, 10:17am

Post #7 of 28 (738 views)
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RE [In reply to] Can't Post

DoS begins with it raining in Bree, as we see a familiar face chomping on a carrot.

1. What do you think of PJ's cameo? Were you surprised that the first person we see in DoS is that of the director?

I was quite surprised that he was the first face we saw in the film. But I had no doubts, after confirmation was established that the Bree scene would happen, that PJ will revive his famous cameo.

In the next scene, we see a figure (which later turns out to be Thorin) making his way to the Prancing Pony inn, obviously being followed by the two ruffian type characters that we see later.

2. What do you think of Thorin's entrance? Do you think he's aware that he's being followed?

To me it kind of seemed as if he didnt want anyone to see him enter the prancing pony. But either way, it was a good entrance, especially the brief theme playing when we see his face

Next, we finally make it inside the Prancing Pony inn, with all sorts of activity, including an ancestor of the black cat we saw in Fellowship.

3. Why do you think there are so many black cats in Bree? Is it that unlucky of a town, or do they simply have a mouse or a rat problem (meaning the rodents, not unsavory characters)?

Im not so sure about the black cats, but having Cats iin general, and rodents around, work well in showing that bree is a very dirty town. Nothing is grand about it. Nothing is royal. Just full of vermin, which a lot of the citizens were like.

Next we see someone bump into one of the waitresses (who is played by none other than Peter Jackson's daughter, Katie) on her way to give Thorin his order.

4. Do you think that some of the customers of the Prancing Pony are rude on purpose, or was this simply an accident, since there seem to be a lot of people in the inn at the time?

I just think that they were all drunk, and were not really aware of what they were doing.

Now it seems that Thorin is looking at the other customers while he's enjoying his meal. This is when we see the two ruffian type characters again, obviously with some type of vendetta against our exiled king. We see Thorin reach for his sword as the two approach him.

5. What do you think Thorin is thinking at this moment? Is it that of annoyance of being interrupted, or was he prepared for such an eventuality?

Its obvious! He knew very well by the way that they were death staring at him that something wasnt right. And then they get up and walk towards him. Any mans first intention would be to defend themselves. Good thinking Thorin!

This is when Gandalf appears at the nick of time, making the two ruffians back off (obviously, they had dealings with the wizard before), as he asks if he can join Thorin. He then introduces himself and tells Thorin why he is there.

6. Do you think Gandalf was really surprised to see that Thorin was in Bree? Or did he just tell him that so that Thorin wouldn't guess the real reason he seemed to seek him out?

To me this whole scene didnt look like a chance meeting. The way Gandalf came in just didnt work. It kind of looked like they had planned to meet here before. There should have been something added in of maybe Gandalf eyeing out Thorin.

Shortly after, Gandalf tells Thorin it's time to reclaim his homeland, and that Smaug has sat there long enough. He also tells Thorin on the price against his head, and hands him the note written in Black Speech.

7. Do you think that Thorin was aware he was being hunted before Gandalf told him this?

Im sure he wouldnt have thought that a being who uses Black speech would be hunting him. Thats when things start to get downright evil.

The talk then shifts on to the Arkenstone, and how it will reunite the seven kingdoms of the dwarves. Thorin doesn't think it can be easily reclaimed, until Gandalf tells him that they're going to need a burglar to do the job.

8. Do you think that Thorin had any idea of who Gandalf had in mind, or was he thinking that one of the dwarves could accomplish the task at hand?

Well they didnt show Thorins immediate reaction to that statement by Gandalf, so i cant answer this properly. But I can say that im sure he was expecting someone far more battle hardened and aware of the outside world then Bilbo.

I think that's it for this particular chapter.

9. Is there any thing else you wish to discuss about this chapter that I may have missed?
I liked the way this scene establishes at the same time Azogs hunt for Thorin, and explains well how Azog knew that Thorin was heading towards erebor.

I believe that Azog and Bolg are possibly the only two orcs who may be an exception to the typical evil nature of an orc. Azog had brought up his son, well enough that he actually acknowledges him as his own son. That is a first for any orc. And Bolg sets out to march upon Erebor in vengeance of his fathers death. How many orcs will Try and avenge another dead orc? Most will just forget about the dead one. This gives me hope that Orcs, have some traits of good in them, even if it is small aspects.


Old Pilgrim
Rivendell


May 25 2014, 12:21pm

Post #8 of 28 (721 views)
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Here we go... [In reply to] Can't Post

1. What do you think of PJ's cameo? Were you surprised that the first person we see in DoS is that of the director?

To be honest I was surprised even before that, seeing Bree again was not something I was expecting from this movies. When I saw PJ I thought for a moment that I am watching FOTR again as he looked almost identical + the combination of rain and tall people created a very known atmosphere. However Thorin's appearance quickly returned me back to Hobbit movies.

2. What do you think of Thorin's entrance? Do you think he's aware that he's being followed?

Thorin seemed to be very precautious when entering the Prancing Pony so I am sure he was aware of followers or at least he suspected that he is not very safe in Bree. It continues well the sinister beginning from the streets thought it would be nice to learn some more reasons why Thorin visited Bree in the first place.

3. Why do you think there are so many black cats in Bree? Is it that unlucky of a town, or do they simply have a mouse or a rat problem (meaning the rodents, not unsavory characters)?

Never thought about that but that black again reminded me of FOTR. I guess that black cats are a nice addition to the sinister atmosphere of the Prancing Pony but for story reason I believe it is rather the second chance as we all know that mouses and rats were a bilg problem in medieval socities and Bree probably wasn't anything different.

4. Do you think that some of the customers of the Prancing Pony are rude on purpose, or was this simply an accident, since there seem to be a lot of people in the inn at the time?

I don't believe that they are rude on purpose. We can see that there are a lot of people in the inn, most of them are probably drunk so it isn't surprising that they are loud and rude.

5. What do you think Thorin is thinking at this moment? Is it that of annoyance of being interrupted, or was he prepared for such an eventuality?

Those two ruffians don't look very friendly at all so Thorin's reaction is expected. Most likely he doesn't know who they are or why are they closing at him but living amongst men in exile probably learned Thorin a thing or two about precaution.

6. Do you think Gandalf was really surprised to see that Thorin was in Bree? Or did he just tell him that so that Thorin wouldn't guess the real reason he seemed to seek him out?

Gandalf is a very clever chap so he was probably expecting to meet Thorin in Bree sooner or later. He knew Thorin's nature and that he would want to get some answers regarding his missing father and Bree was probably the best place for informations because of so many visitors.

7. Do you think that Thorin was aware he was being hunted before Gandalf told him this?

I don't believe so as Thorin was clearly shocked when hearing Gandalf told him about the price on his head. He was beeing precautios but I think he didn't knew that there is someone who wish to harm him on purpose as he also didn't knew that Azog still lives.

8. Do you think that Thorin had any idea of who Gandalf had in mind, or was he thinking that one of the dwarves could accomplish the task at hand?

Thorin probably didn't know much about Hobbits, so I doubt he was thinking of them. It is most likely that he tought that Gandalf is reffering to one of the dwarves as I cannot imagine that he would like to see any men or less elf on such journey.

9. Is there any thing else you wish to discuss about this chapter that I may have missed?

It was a nice chapter for the beginning and I really enjoyed seeing Bree once again since we didn't see it in AUJ. Both actors were great in their roles so perhaps the only thing that confused me was the fact that Gandalf was the one who pushed Thorin on this adventure instead that he alone decided to reclaim Erebor as it should be better in my opinion.


Name
Rohan


May 25 2014, 1:44pm

Post #9 of 28 (726 views)
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It makes more sense than the book [In reply to] Can't Post

In the book, Bilbo is recruited to basically walk into Smaug's lair and steal back treasure piece by piece. And this is all Gandalf's idea, who's supposed to be one of the wisest in ME. Pretty silly logic from Tolkien.

Now in the movie, the Arkenstone is supposed to allow Thorin to call the other dwarves to Erebor, and then kill Smaug. I think that because the Arkenstone is so beloved and worshipped, other dwarves want to be in its presence. So it's a little bit more logical. But we don't have to worry about that, since it never happens. Once Smaug is dead, Dain will come anyways. So essentially Jackson has avoided an illogical plot hole, and given Bilbo a more purposeful role.

How many Tolkien fans does it take to change a light bulb?

"Change? Oh my god, what do you mean change?! Never, never, never......"


Noria
Gondor

May 25 2014, 3:06pm

Post #10 of 28 (717 views)
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Yay DoS. My thoughts. [In reply to] Can't Post

DoS begins with it raining in Bree, as we see a familiar face chomping on a carrot.

1. What do you think of PJ's cameo? Were you surprised that the first person we see in DoS is that of the director?

-Probably, but my overall reaction was that it was funny. Also it got the cameo thing done and out of the way right at the start.


In the next scene, we see a figure (which later turns out to be Thorin) making his way to the Prancing Pony inn, obviously being followed by the two ruffian type characters that we see later.

2. What do you think of Thorin's entrance? Do you think he's aware that he's being followed?

-I liked Thorin's entrance, that we donít know itís him at first. Itís nice to visit Bree again, in the rain. I tend to forget how short the dwarves are and seeing him again among the men of Bree reminded me.

-It seems clear to me that Thorin knows heís being followed Ė he looks over his shoulder and while that shot shows us who we are watching I think it also tells us that Thorin is aware of the two men slinking through Bree behind him.


Next, we finally make it inside the Prancing Pony inn, with all sorts of activity, including an ancestor of the black cat we saw in Fellowship.

3. Why do you think there are so many black cats in Bree? Is it that unlucky of a town, or do they simply have a mouse or a rat problem (meaning the rodents, not unsavory characters)?

-I think it was just another call back to FotR but why couldn't an ancestor of FotRís black cat be there? Iím not superstitious about black cats so I don't think it's unlucky. I donít suppose that Bree had a worse vermin infestation than any other town.


Next we see someone bump into one of the waitresses (who is played by none other than Peter Jackson's daughter, Katie) on her way to give Thorin his order.

4. Do you think that some of the customers of the Prancing Pony are rude on purpose, or was this simply an accident, since there seem to be a lot of people in the inn at the time?

-I never thought it was anything but an accident in a pretty chaotic and rough establishment full of drinkers. Would the landlord stand for the girl identified in the credits as his daughter being assaulted? To me there seemed to be a subtle difference in the atmosphere of the Prancing Pony between FotR and DoS. In FotR, we see through Frodoís eyes and the inn seems like a mysterious, dangerous den of intrigue, while in DoS itís just busy, boisterous and crowded hostelry.


Now it seems that Thorin is looking at the other customers while he's enjoying his meal. This is when we see the two ruffian type characters again, obviously with some type of vendetta against our exiled king. We see Thorin reach for his sword as the two approach him.

5. What do you think Thorin is thinking at this moment? Is it that of annoyance of being interrupted, or was he prepared for such an eventuality?

-I think Thorin was rather expecting an attack and to me he looked a little apprehensive as well as annoyed, but ready to defend himself. After all, it was two against one and they could have been exceptional fighters. I like Thorin a lot but I donít think heís a superhero.

-But it makes little sense to me why the two ruffians would follow Thorin to a crowded inn before preparing to attack him, unless they weren't sure it was him until they saw him in the light. Otherwise it might have been better to grab the dwarf on the dark and rainy street and pull him into an alley.


This is when Gandalf appears at the nick of time, making the two ruffians back off (obviously, they had dealings with the wizard before), as he asks if he can join Thorin. He then introduces himself and tells Thorin why he is there.

6. Do you think Gandalf was really surprised to see that Thorin was in Bree? Or did he just tell him that so that Thorin wouldn't guess the real reason he seemed to seek him out?

-The ruffians may have recognized Gandalf or maybe just realized that he was a wizard. Or two on two was too much for them.

-Gandalf may have been actively looking for Thorin or he may have just seized the opportunity that presented itself. He certainly presents it as a chance meeting though he is obviously putting on an act, hoping I suppose that Thorin will let his guard down. I love McKellenís acting here as he goes from friendly benign old man delighted at this sudden opportunity to determined player on a mission. I also like how Thorin isnít fooled at all. Both actors are great.


Shortly after, Gandalf tells Thorin it's time to reclaim his homeland, and that Smaug has sat there long enough. He also tells Thorin on the price against his head, and hands him the note written in Black Speech.

7. Do you think that Thorin was aware he was being hunted before Gandalf told him this?

-I do think he knew he was being followed in Bree but he seemed surprised about the price on his head.


The talk then shifts on to the Arkenstone, and how it will reunite the seven kingdoms of the dwarves. Thorin doesn't think it can be easily reclaimed, until Gandalf tells him that they're going to need a burglar to do the job.

8. Do you think that Thorin had any idea of who Gandalf had in mind, or was he thinking that one of the dwarves could accomplish the task at hand?

-No, Iím sure that he had never heard of Bilbo and had little respect for hobbits in general. The burglar idea was Gandalfís and he probably had to twist Thorinís arm to get him to agree to a hobbit burglar.


I think that's it for this particular chapter.

9. Is there anything else you wish to discuss about this chapter that I may have missed?

-The scene in Bree is a small one that does a lot, IMO. It reintroduces us to the world of Middle Earth and two of the main characters. It sort of recaps the plot of AUJ as we learn how the Quest of Erebor came to be, are reminded that Thorin is being hunted and learn by implication how our main character came to be involved just before we segue to Bilbo in burglar mode. The throbbing Wilderland musical theme starts as Gandalf speaks and rises as we see Bilbo a year later in Wilderland, doing the stealth thing.

-I love PJís prologues. They serve a number of functions: reacquainting us with ME, reminding us of key plot points and imparting some new information. My favourite is the opening of The Two Towers but I like this one too.

-I also like how there has been an attempt to rationalize the quest plot, which in the book makes little sense, though it works fine in that fairy tale world with its initially clueless protagonist. There the quest is all about greed since it seems that the dwarves are going to Erebor simply to steal back the treasure, one piece at a time. I prefer the mission revealed in this prologue, of securing the Arkenstone in order to unite the dwarves so that they can take Erebor back from Smaug and reclaim their home. It makes more sense of Gandalfís involvement as well, since he has a larger geopolitical goal in mind.

-However this whole thing about the Arkenstone mystifies me. I get that Thorin needs it to unite the seven houses of the dwarves but is mere possession of it enough to command the dwarven armies? Or does it have some mystical qualities or powers? I hope not but weíll see.


pettytyrant101
Lorien


May 25 2014, 4:40pm

Post #11 of 28 (696 views)
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Not exactly true [In reply to] Can't Post

we are told the reasons behind Gandalf's actions, well some of them, in the Quest for Erebor.

It is Thorin who initially tries to persuade Gandalf to help him retake Erebor- but as his plans are all for war and taking the mountain by force, which Gandalf thinks is doomed and pie and the sky stuff, Gandalf refuses to help and goes for a rest in the Shire.
There he hears about Bilbo, that he is a bit odd, and they even goes off with dwarves.
Gandalf thinks of the problem of Smaug and his own fears about how the necromancer might make use of Smaug, and then of the quiet hobbits. This in turn reminds him he has the key and map showing a secret entrance and gives him the idea to send Bilbo so they can at least get an idea of what is going on at Erebor, and to find out if the dragon is even still there or not.
But mainly he decides to do it because he has a profound sense that if Bilbo does not go it will be a disaster.

He convinces Thorin to come to Bag End to see Bilbo- and thats nearly a disaster and Thorin is only persuaded to go along with Gandalfs scheme by the existence of the secret door and its key.
Bilbo's job as the hired thief is to go into the mountain and find out what is in there, Thorin getting him to steal stuff is a secondary issue born of Thorin's growing greed for his gold.

Gandalf's choice of Bilbo is just a hunch. His higher self is acting through his lower mortal self without him consciously realizing it- and this is a hugely important theme carried through in LotR's- Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and Gandalf was meant to choose Bilbo- but at the time he had no idea and was just going on his gut feelings.

And Gandalf's secondary motivation was to use the threat of the dragon as reasoning for why the WC needed to attack Sauron first,which Saruman opposed. Gandlaf is quite cynically a politician in his manoeuvrings- he creates the quest to Erebor then uses it as an excuse for why the WC must act.

There never was a plan to steal all the treasure, or to go kill a dragon. Just to go and find out what was going then come up with a plan- but we never find out as he didn't need to because his hunch was right, sending Bilbo was the key to events unfolding for the common good.

Now you are free to dislike Tolkiens set up, but it does make sense.

"A lot of our heroes depress me. But when they made this particular hero they didn't give him a gun, they gave him a screwdriver so he could fix things. They didn't give him a tank, or a warship, or an x-wing fighter, they gave him a call box from which you can call for help. And they didn't give him a superpower, or pointy ears or a heat ray, they gave him an extra heart. And that's an extraordinary thing.
There will never come a time when we don't need a hero like the Doctor."- Steven Moffat


Name
Rohan


May 25 2014, 4:58pm

Post #12 of 28 (692 views)
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This is mostly true [In reply to] Can't Post

But all this is Gandalf's plan, not Bilbo's or the dwarves'. Bilbo thinks he is supposed to steal treasure, and Thorin wants to reclaim his homeland (somehow). All of what you said is true, but it still doesn't give Bilbo a real purpose as a character. In Gandalf's mind he has a purpose, but the movies are not supposed to be from Gandalf's point of view. That's all behind the scenes. Bilbo needed a purpose for himself, something the audience could also go along with. Him secretly being Gandalf's puppet isn't a good story. So stealing the Arkenstone IMO is a lot better than stealing treasure.

How many Tolkien fans does it take to change a light bulb?

"Change? Oh my god, what do you mean change?! Never, never, never......"


pettytyrant101
Lorien


May 25 2014, 5:35pm

Post #13 of 28 (678 views)
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Your original [In reply to] Can't Post

complaint was that the book makes no sense- but it does make sense.

The new accusation is that the sensible book version is from Gandalf not Bilbo's point of view- but as I said above I don't object to them giving the Arkenstone more prominence, or even making it the reason the think they need BIlbo- but I am objecting to the fact that as presented it doesn't make any sense.

Why does it unite the dwarves? If they have good reasons and objections to retaking Erebor why would those reasons and objections all instantly evaporate just because Thorin has a shiny stone? What kind of easily led dwarves are these?

If they need the Arkenstone to unite the dwarves, why did Thrain not need it to get them all to unite try to retake Moria?

If all the other dwarf houses wont follow a King unless they have the King's Stone- and they all believe it is lost forever under a dragon none of them are willing to attack- then they effectively decided they will never unite under any circumstances ever no matter what!

It just doesn't add up to anything in the films but a lot of questions with no answers and smacks of last minute back of a beer mat scripting.

"A lot of our heroes depress me. But when they made this particular hero they didn't give him a gun, they gave him a screwdriver so he could fix things. They didn't give him a tank, or a warship, or an x-wing fighter, they gave him a call box from which you can call for help. And they didn't give him a superpower, or pointy ears or a heat ray, they gave him an extra heart. And that's an extraordinary thing.
There will never come a time when we don't need a hero like the Doctor."- Steven Moffat


Name
Rohan


May 25 2014, 6:16pm

Post #14 of 28 (669 views)
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Yes [In reply to] Can't Post

The book makes no sense. The Appendixes do. The Appendixes make sense because the book doesn't. That's why Tolkien added those alternate stories.

As for the Arkenstone, it is the dwarves' most highly cherished artifact. Thror even took it as a sign that "his right to rule was divine." So supposedly it is a gift bestowed to them by the gods. It has been lost for years, and is supposed to be practically impossible to obtain. So if Thorin were to obtain it, he would have done the impossible, and it would prove his strength; in leadership, courage, and skill. His obtaining the Arkenstone would also make him King, accepted by the gods, since it is a divine item. Dwarves are devoutly loyal, so I see no reason as to why they wouldn't come to his aid. The Arkenstone almost parallels the sword of Elendil.

How many Tolkien fans does it take to change a light bulb?

"Change? Oh my god, what do you mean change?! Never, never, never......"


pettytyrant101
Lorien


May 25 2014, 6:38pm

Post #15 of 28 (662 views)
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The book plan does make sense [In reply to] Can't Post

its just simple- go and scout out the area and see what is happening.

Firstly they have the map wih the secret door but no idea if its still there or exactly where, or what it is like-

"But in what ways this one has been hidden we don't know without going to see."- Gandalf, An Unexpected Party

The dwarves when they arrive at Bag End dont have a plan, the whole point of the meeting at Bilbo's is to devise one guided by the suggestions of Gandalf, we know from UT Gandalf rejected Thorin's plans of open conquest of Erebor as foolhardy and probably impossible, and Thorin admits they dont have a concrete plan at the party-

"So far we have had no clear idea what to do. We thought of going East, as quiet and careful as we could, as far as Long Lake. After that...we might go from there up along the River Running and so to the ruins of Dale....But we none of us liked the idea of the Front Gate"- Thorin

"I should say that you ought to go East and have a look round. After all there is the Side-Door, and dragons must sleep sometimes I suppose. If you sit on the doorstep long enough, I daresay you will think of something."- Bilbo

"Aren't you the burglar? And isn't sitting on the door step your job, not to speak of getting inside the door?"- Thorin

So they do form a plan- go east, get to the mountain,, find out if the secret door is still there and get the burglar to find a way in and go see what is happening inside.
They cant formulate a more detailed plan because they dont know exactly what is happening there until they arrive or even if the secret door is still accessible.


Now, as I said before, you can dislike this set up of the books, but it does make sense as presented within the book, without need for the UT or appendices.

"A lot of our heroes depress me. But when they made this particular hero they didn't give him a gun, they gave him a screwdriver so he could fix things. They didn't give him a tank, or a warship, or an x-wing fighter, they gave him a call box from which you can call for help. And they didn't give him a superpower, or pointy ears or a heat ray, they gave him an extra heart. And that's an extraordinary thing.
There will never come a time when we don't need a hero like the Doctor."- Steven Moffat

(This post was edited by pettytyrant101 on May 25 2014, 6:44pm)


Name
Rohan


May 25 2014, 6:45pm

Post #16 of 28 (655 views)
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That's fine [In reply to] Can't Post

But is still think that Bilbo's job is extremely vague, and therefore using the Arkenstone subplot gives him a better purpose. But that's just me.

How many Tolkien fans does it take to change a light bulb?

"Change? Oh my god, what do you mean change?! Never, never, never......"


pettytyrant101
Lorien


May 25 2014, 6:53pm

Post #17 of 28 (658 views)
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It's only vague [In reply to] Can't Post

in the films because of the script which gives no purpose for Bilbo or what the plan is during the opening party scene.

Had they retained Thorin's line to Bilbo- "isn't sitting on the door step your job, not to speak of getting inside the door?" We would have kown from the start clearly what Bilbo's job was supposed to be and what the dwarves expected him to do, but for some reason they omitted that lline (pobably needed the time for a snot or bird poo gag!)

And its not the highlighting of the Arkenstone early I object to- its their invention around it, making it some sort of talisman all dwarves will just blindly follow to war overriding all their current objections to doing so.

And there is no explaination for why if the Arkenstone unites all the dwarves this way and they wont be united without out it, how they were united to undertake the way more suicidal task of retaking Moria and its demon, especially not long after they had been dealt such a major blow which in the films makes the dwarves of Erebor homeless wanderers.


"A lot of our heroes depress me. But when they made this particular hero they didn't give him a gun, they gave him a screwdriver so he could fix things. They didn't give him a tank, or a warship, or an x-wing fighter, they gave him a call box from which you can call for help. And they didn't give him a superpower, or pointy ears or a heat ray, they gave him an extra heart. And that's an extraordinary thing.
There will never come a time when we don't need a hero like the Doctor."- Steven Moffat


Name
Rohan


May 25 2014, 7:00pm

Post #18 of 28 (650 views)
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You have fair points [In reply to] Can't Post

I think with Moria, the dwarves weren't expecting that much resistance, which is why there's that line "but our enemy got there first."

How many Tolkien fans does it take to change a light bulb?

"Change? Oh my god, what do you mean change?! Never, never, never......"


pettytyrant101
Lorien


May 25 2014, 7:13pm

Post #19 of 28 (654 views)
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Sadly [In reply to] Can't Post

the expecting no enemy at Moria makes no sense either- they all know about the Balrog in there- in the books this battle is the final culminating one in a long series of battles that have been fought underground throughout the Misty Mountains.

Why in the film the dwarves think here will be no orcs in Moria is a complete mystery- its pretty obvious given orcs live in the Misty Mountains in numbers at this time (or at least before the dwarves went to war with them they did) that the largest abandoned city under the Misty Mountains, home to a Balrog, would have orcs in it.

And what was their plan? How were they going to deal with the Balrog if the orcs hadn't been there? The entire might of Moria at is peak couldn't stop the Balrog. Had all those thousands of dwarves in the battle just forgotten it was in there? There is no sense to it.

In fact they were lucky the orcs were there otherwise the bulk of the male dwarven race would have been wiped out by the Balrog, including Thorin's entire line.

"A lot of our heroes depress me. But when they made this particular hero they didn't give him a gun, they gave him a screwdriver so he could fix things. They didn't give him a tank, or a warship, or an x-wing fighter, they gave him a call box from which you can call for help. And they didn't give him a superpower, or pointy ears or a heat ray, they gave him an extra heart. And that's an extraordinary thing.
There will never come a time when we don't need a hero like the Doctor."- Steven Moffat

(This post was edited by pettytyrant101 on May 25 2014, 7:14pm)


Bofur01
Lorien

May 25 2014, 10:05pm

Post #20 of 28 (625 views)
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To offer another point of view... [In reply to] Can't Post

...I would guess that it's just the survivors of Erebor at Moria, as opposed to Dwarves from all seven kingdoms - We've seen dwarves of the Iron Hills in the vlogs, and they didn't look dressed similarly to me.


pettytyrant101
Lorien


May 25 2014, 10:17pm

Post #21 of 28 (617 views)
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That's a fair point [In reply to] Can't Post

the film doesn't say so, but nor does it rule it out.

Still doesn't explain why they didn't think about the Balrog, or why they thought Moria would be deserted, or how after their loss they were convinced to undertake such a suicidal mission in the first place, especially with the loss of the Arkenstone- given its talisman like powers DOS seems to attribute to it.

If a dragon had just wiped my home out and made my family homeless I'm pretty sure the last thing I'd be talked into would be a crazy plan to retake Moria and attack a Balrog. Thats just mad. Especially if all the numbers you have to attempt it with are just the survivors of Erebor. And more so if the mad plan has been created by a King who just lost me my homeland and the Arkenstone.

And why would anyone do this, especially when there are well established dwarf communities in the Blue and Iron Hills to go to? Its not like they dont have alternatives.

"A lot of our heroes depress me. But when they made this particular hero they didn't give him a gun, they gave him a screwdriver so he could fix things. They didn't give him a tank, or a warship, or an x-wing fighter, they gave him a call box from which you can call for help. And they didn't give him a superpower, or pointy ears or a heat ray, they gave him an extra heart. And that's an extraordinary thing.
There will never come a time when we don't need a hero like the Doctor."- Steven Moffat


Name
Rohan


May 26 2014, 12:45am

Post #22 of 28 (603 views)
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Correct me if I'm wrong.... [In reply to] Can't Post

....but isn't that also a flaw in Tolkien's writings too? I probably need to read that part of the Appendixes again, but I thought that the two were pretty similar.

And BTW, I've really enjoyed having this debate with you. It's always fun having a good, honest discussion with someone who has an opposite opinion of me. Keeps me on my toes. Laugh

How many Tolkien fans does it take to change a light bulb?

"Change? Oh my god, what do you mean change?! Never, never, never......"


pettytyrant101
Lorien


May 26 2014, 1:08am

Post #23 of 28 (598 views)
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Thanks Name [In reply to] Can't Post

I enjoy these debates too.

In the book the battle at Moria is the result of a lengthy underground war- and is the last battle in that war against Azog the Defiler (so called because he defiled the King by cutting his head of, branding Azog on it and sending it back to the dwarves- which is what started the war, its basically a war of revenge and pride).

But once they have fought there way through the Misty Mountains to Moria they wisely choose to go no further because of the Balrog and they know they cannot retake Moria whilst the Balrog is still there.

Unfortunately the entire war with the orcs and its back-story is absent from the film and instead we are told this battle just happens because the dwarves decided to retake Moria (no mention of the Balrog or why they decided to try to retake Moria or how such a thing could even come about or how they could possibly succeed at it anyway) and they were surprised (for some reason) to find it full of orcs.

In short, it doesn't make the slightest bit of sense.

And I still dont know why Azog is still called the Defiler in the films, as he does not perform the actions which earned him the name and we dont see him do anything to earn it (he does still cut the kings head off but thats in a battle where lots of people are probably getting dismembered, its really the branding afterwards and sending the head back that earns the name and that doesn't happen as the King he kills which sparks the war is in the battle in the films-its that much of a mess).

"A lot of our heroes depress me. But when they made this particular hero they didn't give him a gun, they gave him a screwdriver so he could fix things. They didn't give him a tank, or a warship, or an x-wing fighter, they gave him a call box from which you can call for help. And they didn't give him a superpower, or pointy ears or a heat ray, they gave him an extra heart. And that's an extraordinary thing.
There will never come a time when we don't need a hero like the Doctor."- Steven Moffat


Kim
Valinor


May 26 2014, 2:36am

Post #24 of 28 (594 views)
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We're back! [In reply to] Can't Post

DoS begins with it raining in Bree, as we see a familiar face chomping on a carrot.

1. What do you think of PJ's cameo? Were you surprised that the first person we see in DoS is that of the director?
On my first viewing, my friend and I immediately turned to each other with a grin, pointed and said ďhey!Ē We thought it was great. Maybe a little surprised to see him so soon, but got it out the way right away so we could settle in to the movie.

In the next scene, we see a figure (which later turns out to be Thorin) making his way to the Prancing Pony inn, obviously being followed by the two ruffian type characters that we see later.

2. What do you think of Thorin's entrance? Do you think he's aware that he's being followed?
On first viewing, I wasnít quite sure what was going on besides Thorin stalking through Bree, but when he turned his head, it seemed like he knew someone was behind him (and not in a good way).

Next, we finally make it inside the Prancing Pony inn, with all sorts of activity, including an ancestor of the black cat we saw in Fellowship.

3. Why do you think there are so many black cats in Bree? Is it that unlucky of a town, or do they simply have a mouse or a rat problem (meaning the rodents, not unsavory characters)?
Oh, I think it was just a little callback to the cat in FOTR. I donít think black cats are that uncommon (are they?). The bigger question seems to be, ďwhy is it always raining in Bree?Ē The answer would seem to be that itís the Middle-earth equivalent of Seattle! Wink


Next we see someone bump into one of the waitresses (who is played by none other than Peter Jackson's daughter, Katie) on her way to give Thorin his order.

4. Do you think that some of the customers of the Prancing Pony are rude on purpose, or was this simply an accident, since there seem to be a lot of people in the inn at the time?
Hmmm, donít know about the other customers being rude, just seemed like a fairly typical rowdy pub crowd, albeit more than a little bit loud. And I was a little distracted by Katieís presence Ė now that sheís not a little girl anymore, I think it would work better if her cameos were a little more hidden (like Peterís dwarf in AUJ, not the carrot chomper).


Now it seems that Thorin is looking at the other customers while he's enjoying his meal. This is when we see the two ruffian type characters again, obviously with some type of vendetta against our exiled king. We see Thorin reach for his sword as the two approach him.

5. What do you think Thorin is thinking at this moment? Is it that of annoyance of being interrupted, or was he prepared for such an eventuality?
It kind of seems like heís prepared for unfriendly types on the road, basically anyone who is not a dwarf, especially since he was aware he was being followed on the way in. And the 2 ruffians donít really seem to be hiding their interest in Thorin. In fact, they seem a little overly menacing, Iím thinking subtlety is not their strong suit. I love the look on Thorinís face as he reaches for his sword, like ďall right, here we go.Ē

This is when Gandalf appears at the nick of time, making the two ruffians back off (obviously, they had dealings with the wizard before), as he asks if he can join Thorin. He then introduces himself and tells Thorin why he is there.

6. Do you think Gandalf was really surprised to see that Thorin was in Bree? Or did he just tell him that so that Thorin wouldn't guess the real reason he seemed to seek him out?
No, I donít think Gandalf was surprised, especially with what we learn in a moment. He did seem to have a handy sense of timing regarding the 2 ruffians. And he probably wanted to gain Thorinís trust first before jumping right into the real reason heís there. I didnít necessarily think the ruffians knew who Gandalf was, just that another person had joined Thorin, so it wouldnít be 2 against 1 anymore.

Shortly after, Gandalf tells Thorin it's time to reclaim his homeland, and that Smaug has sat there long enough. He also tells Thorin on the price against his head, and hands him the note written in Black Speech.

7. Do you think that Thorin was aware he was being hunted before Gandalf told him this?
I think he probably knew someone was following him, but not necessarily that there was a specific threat. Again, love the look on Thorinís face and tone of voice when he says, ďI imagine they regretted that.Ē And ďthis is no chance meeting, is it?Ē

The talk then shifts on to the Arkenstone, and how it will reunite the seven kingdoms of the dwarves. Thorin doesn't think it can be easily reclaimed, until Gandalf tells him that they're going to need a burglar to do the job.

8. Do you think that Thorin had any idea of who Gandalf had in mind, or was he thinking that one of the dwarves could accomplish the task at hand?
No, I donít think Thorin had any idea, and he probably wasnít yet at the point of thinking about the details of planning an assault on Erebor.

I think that's it for this particular chapter.

9. Is there any thing else you wish to discuss about this chapter that I may have missed?
I thought this was a nice set up to clarify the quest and the importance of the Arkenstone.


Thorinís hair: well, would you look at that, Thorinís hair is back and better than ever! A little damp under the hood, but got nice and toasty in front of the fire. Laugh

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"Jagatud rűűm on topelt rűűm - a shared joy is a double joy". ~Estonian saying


ďAs such, you will address His Majesty as His Majesty, the Lord of Silver Fountains, the King of Carven Stone, the King Beneath the Mountain, the Lion of Erebor, the High King of the Dwarves, the True Treasure of Erebor, the Face that Launched 10,000 Sighs, or Thorin the Majestic..."


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Kim
Valinor


May 26 2014, 3:58am

Post #25 of 28 (609 views)
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Almost forgot something very important! [In reply to] Can't Post

Requisite photo of Thorin:

"I imagine they regretted that"


Cool



"Jagatud rűűm on topelt rűűm - a shared joy is a double joy". ~Estonian saying


ďAs such, you will address His Majesty as His Majesty, the Lord of Silver Fountains, the King of Carven Stone, the King Beneath the Mountain, the Lion of Erebor, the High King of the Dwarves, the True Treasure of Erebor, the Face that Launched 10,000 Sighs, or Thorin the Majestic..."


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