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StevenUmbrello
Bree
May 21 2014, 11:59pm
Post #1 of 36
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Gilfanon's Tale: Travail of Noldoli and The Coming of Mankind - Tu?
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This post is dedicated to Ihearthee who has graciously asked me to do a review on this particular part of the Book of Lost Tales 1. Although I am sure that there are far more knowledgable candidates on this forum to tackle this chapter, I will nonetheless try as I may to flush out as much as I can.
I will not be focussing on the entirety of the chapter, rather, there will be more emphasis placed on those parts which, I and Ihearthee, deem to be interesting. I have the hopes that we as a community can discuss the questions.
The first thing we shall tackle is of the character Tu. Nuin (dark elf) returns from the vale in which we know are harbouring the sleeping 'forms' of the yet to awaken man. In a sudden burst of fear Nuin returns to the residence of Tu, who is described as "the oldest of wizards" (264). Unfortunately the professor ended here and Christopher says that the "wizard Tu and the Dark Elf Nuin disappeared from the mythology" (264). I find this a really fascinating character. Although virtually nothing is said to describe him, his lineage or where he is from is nonetheless a point worth looking into. We all know of the five 'wizards' which came into the west. All are Maia from Valinor. However, who is this wizard? Is the term wizard used in this context to make reference to the same type of being as it is used when we refer to the Maiar? Or does wizard mean something else? Tu or Tuvo is described in differing texts as a 'wizard-king'(266) and also someone who is in league with Morgoth who taught him black magic. Both names, Tuvo and Tu, seem to be used interchangeably. Either way, it seems that regardless of whether he is a king or not, or evil or not, he is nonetheless referred to as a wizard. What are your thoughts on who this 'wizard' might be?
One of the key features of this character was that he forbade any of the elves from going too close to the sleeping vale in fear that they may awaken some of the children (men) before Illuvatar saw fit to. It states "he forbade any of the Elves to wake them or to visit those places, being frightened of Illuvatar" (267) Also, in the later outline of The Awakening of Men, after Nuin awakened some men "Tu faded before the Sun and hid in the bottomless caverns" (269)
I am wondering how much knowledge this Tuvo or Tu knows about the mind of Illuvatar, or his plans. It seems he knows this much, and if so, where did he obtain this knowledge? How intimately is he connected with Illuvatar that he has the good judgment to fear him?
I hope that we can have a good discussion here and try to track down who this mysterious figure is. I am wondering if this is a character that exists in the cannon works but was renamed by the professor and the change never written down...perhaps we will never know, but that wont stop us from trying to figure it out!
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Steven Umbrello is the owner and curator of The Leather Library blog. It is a site which is dedicated to Philosophy, Literature (especially Tolkien), and the Finer things in life.
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/TheBBCorps
Blog: theleatherlibraryblog.com
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Brethil
Half-elven
May 22 2014, 12:49am
Post #2 of 36
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I find that term interesting and it could be descriptive, I think, in this case. "Fay" is a spirit-channel in Smith of Wootten Major (as the Fay-star) so I think it describes something connected to and linking the real world with the Faerie world. In this sense, the 'fays' strike me as lesser spirits, earthy spirits. So maybe in our lexicon 'fays' would be sprites, for example...maybe in human forms.
In many ways Tu reminds me of the later conception of Gandalf, as the wanderer form Valinor who befriended the Elves; and 'Lord of the Gloaming' might be seen to be the 'grey' time of day I suppose (whimsically).
The next TORn Amateur Symposium is a special edition: the Jubilee TAS to celebrate 60 years of FOTR! If you have an LOTR idea you would like to write about, we'd love to see your writing featured there!
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Ihearthee
The Shire
May 22 2014, 2:18am
Post #3 of 36
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Thank you for posting this Steven, this is still very confusing to me, here is one theory I have (it might sound odd) but here it is. Maybe Tu is not a he, and the word fay could have been used to replace Fui (Nienna) her name in Gnomish is Fuil which means 'Queen of the Dark' or maybe he could be Ve which is another name for Mandos? I have to read through this some more, I am sorry if this does not make much sense.
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StevenUmbrello
Bree
May 22 2014, 2:35am
Post #4 of 36
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The whole thing is a bit confusing. The majority is due to the lack of explication on part of Tolkien. I like where the thoughts are going thus far!
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Steven Umbrello is the owner and curator of The Leather Library blog. It is a site which is dedicated to Philosophy, Literature (especially Tolkien), and the Finer things in life.
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/TheBBCorps
Blog: theleatherlibraryblog.com
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Ihearthee
The Shire
May 22 2014, 2:43am
Post #5 of 36
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I was hit with a storm of ideas haha, I did not take enough time to try to explain where I am going with it, I am trying to work with too many thoughts, I will come back to this.
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StevenUmbrello
Bree
May 22 2014, 2:52am
Post #6 of 36
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I would like to hear your more developed theory. You got me interested in this! I want to know what became of this character, since he went to hid in the 'bottomless caverns'. I wonder if this person/spirit is immortal? These mysteries are awesome!
-----------------------------------------------------
Steven Umbrello is the owner and curator of The Leather Library blog. It is a site which is dedicated to Philosophy, Literature (especially Tolkien), and the Finer things in life.
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/TheBBCorps
Blog: theleatherlibraryblog.com
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Ihearthee
The Shire
May 22 2014, 4:10am
Post #7 of 36
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I see that Lomendanar or Lomen Danar means 'The Days of Gloaming' before the two Lamps were constructed, and it says Aule suaded Melko to build two towers to the north and the south, but Melko crafted them of ice, so they would melt once the lamps were set upon them, so the land would flood.
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Elthir
Grey Havens
May 22 2014, 11:15am
Post #8 of 36
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Roaming the web one finds theories: some try to connect Tu/vo to the later Thu, some even to Thingol. Here's one from someone posting as Alcuin for example...
The description of this event is strikingly similar to Finrod's discovery of Bëor and his folk. In the The Silmarillion chapter "Of the Coming of Men into the West", Finrod had 'journeyed east of Sirion' with his cousins Maedhros and Maglor, when he 'wearied of the chase” and went into the far east of Beleriand until “he came into the North of Ossiriand.' There he found Bëor and his folk sitting around campfire, playing a rude harp and singing songs. When they fell asleep, Finrod came into their camp, took the harp, and began to sing, after which they awoke to find him there.
Tu/Tuvo is glossed as 'the wizard or fay who became King of the Dark Elves.' Of all the Noldor, only Finrod took counsel with his uncle, Thingol, who claimed overlordship of Beleriand and 'was ill-pleased … because he was troubled by dreams concerning the coming of Men, ere ever the first tidings of them were heard. …he said, 'Into Doriath shall no Man come while my realm lasts…''
I believe Tu/Tuvo, whose character was developed into Thingol, is an entirely different individual from Thû, whose character was developed into Sauron. Thû does not appear in The Book of Lost Tales I, but his predecessor does, Tevildo Prince of Cats.
Alcuin
Me posting that doesn't mean I endorse it however, but it does make it seem as if I answered in the thread 
In the end -- and although everyone already realizes this -- we will probably never know. Even Christopher Tolkien makes no conjecture here. Externally we are very early in Tolkien's life in any case, well before the ideas emerged that Gandalf was a Maia, and 'wizard' or Istar 'knower'.
That said, the name Iluvatar has only one L not two, and if I can stem the growing tide of this L infiltration, found often enough on the web, then this post is not all that much of a waste, if admittedly annoying, since I make spelling errors myself!
In any case I couldn't resist. Sorry.
(This post was edited by Elthir on May 22 2014, 11:18am)
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Brethil
Half-elven
May 22 2014, 4:54pm
Post #9 of 36
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...but perhaps the best option at times?
If we begin *correcting for error* none of us shall 'scape whipping, I fear. Me most of all.  So in self-serving self-preservation I ask - in general, to all - that perhaps we NOT go down this route of correcting each other. It seems to be becoming the new fashion but I worry about the cardinal effect that this may have on the RR culture. Again, speaking for myself, feeling badly about a typo or a small error can sap the enjoyment right out of a discussion.
Back on topic, 'unknown' is indeed the case, ultimately. Potentially is this short story is like a dry-fit for the finding of Men by Finrod? I agree with the section you posted, in that it bears a striking thematic resemblance. So perhaps one of those ideas that JRRT felt compelled to add in someplace, but chose Finrod as the protagonist (more 'fay' bridging I suppose, between Faerie and Real-world, if you see and Elf as the faerie in the mix.)
The next TORn Amateur Symposium is a special edition: the Jubilee TAS to celebrate 60 years of FOTR! If you have an LOTR idea you would like to write about, we'd love to see your writing featured there!
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squire
Half-elven
May 22 2014, 6:17pm
Post #11 of 36
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I also thought that this quasi-evil, somewhat-dark, kind-of-a-fay, kind-of-a-wizard, named Tu might have something to do with Thu the demon-lord necromancer and servant of Morgoth, aka Sauron, who appears (transformed from the Lost Tales' Tevildo, Prince of Cats) in later versions of the legends.
As Alcuin says in the post you quoted, Thu/Sauron descends directly from Tevildo in the role he plays in the Beren legend. But this Tu would seem to explain several new features in Thu, the Boss's original First Henchman: 1) He is of human form rather than being a giant cat; 2) He is a fay/wizard, i.e., possessor or wielder of magic that the Elves do not know; 3) He has an independent existence from Melko/Morgoth and an independent relationship with the Valar; 4) the name -- granted that 'T' is not the same as 'Th', they are at least quite close phonically; and 5) even more interestingly, Tu's variant name Tuvo suggests an imaginative connection with, yes, Tevildo.
I don't see much connection with Gandalf at all, who long post-dates the Lost Tales and Silmarillion traditions in their entirety. But Tu is, it seems, the first incarnation of a 'wizard' who is not an Elf and not an Ainu (neither Man nor God) in Tolkien's developing fantasy universe. So, maybe, Gandalf (originally Bladorthin) in The Hobbit follows from Tu's invention in that sense. But I always think Gandalf's immediate predecessor in Tolkien's fiction is The Man in the Moon in Roverandom, which he wrote out just two or three years before The Hobbit, and almost a decade after inventing and discarding Tu in an immediately-abandoned Lost Tale.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
May 22 2014, 6:27pm
Post #12 of 36
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I agree that pointing out typos in names when the meaning remains clear isn't productive. If someone wrote "Finargolfin," asking for clarity would be due, but if it's "Finarrfin," I think we clever readers can make the correction in our own minds and move on. Many of us write while on breaks at work and can't be thoroughly exacting in proofing our prose due to time constraints.
The other consideration is that there are quite a few people here who don't speak English as their first language, and correcting their spelling or grammar only dampens their willingness to participate, and everyone should feel welcome to participate.
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Elthir
Grey Havens
May 22 2014, 9:10pm
Post #14 of 36
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I'm not correcting a typo, nor general spelling errors, nor grammar; and it's an Elvish name not English nor any other primary world tongue [so Iluvatar should be the same in a German translation, or Spanish, and so on, if English isn't someone's first tongue]...
... Iluvatar is misssplelled all over the web, due to some sort of visual L infiltration, I'm guessing.
There's a difference I think... in my slight defense 
(This post was edited by Elthir on May 22 2014, 9:22pm)
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
May 23 2014, 4:15pm
Post #15 of 36
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I'm not correcting a typo, nor general spelling errors, nor grammar; Wh..wha..What's left? Nobody's prefect....
Ilûvatar has a circumflex. Shame on us one and all.
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(This post was edited by Bracegirdle on May 23 2014, 4:19pm)
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DanielLB
Immortal
May 23 2014, 4:31pm
Post #16 of 36
(436 views)
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Ilúvatar, with an acute accent? 
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
May 23 2014, 4:32pm
Post #17 of 36
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Those people we never hear about..(Can you spot all the references?)
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Finargolfin? Is he related to Fëarodhros? If so, what connexion might they have to Dor-Rivenethilburg, the secret home of the Caligrimdorin? Considering the Nauglarkeningmaril was forged there by Curitelbrimbor, in the Days of the Second Music, what influence might the Oathdragon's curse of the sons of Glauturinor have on the issue of the Nirnakinslaying of Alaquonellor?
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Darkstone
Immortal
May 23 2014, 4:35pm
Post #18 of 36
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...spelling and grammar correction was frowned on in The Reading Room as long as people could figure out what was being said. Of course that was in the days of the old fogies and the new crowd might want to develop different traditions as is their right.
Just sayin'.
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Now doth Tinuviel put forth her skill and fairy-magic, and she sews Beren into this fell and makes him to the likeness of a great cat, and she teaches him how to sit and sprawl, to step and bound and trot in the semblance of a cat, till Huan's very whiskers bristled at the sight, and thereat Beren and Tinuviel laughed. Never however could Beren learn to screech or wail or to purr like any cat that ever walked, nor could Tinuviel awaken a glow in the dead eyes of the catskin -- "but we must put up with that," said she, "and thou hast the air of a very noble cat if thou but hold thy tongue." Then did they bid farewell to Huan and set out for the halls of Melko by easy journeys, for Beren was in great discomfort and heat within the fur of Oikeroi, and Tinuviel's heart became lighter awhile than it had been for long, and she stroked Beren or pulled his tail, and Beren was angry because he could not lash it in answer as fiercely as he wished.
-Book of Lost Tales II
(This post was edited by Darkstone on May 23 2014, 4:36pm)
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
May 23 2014, 4:45pm
Post #19 of 36
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Righto-- Caught switching glasses... AArrhg //
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**This space for hire***
Contact Messrs, Grubb, Grubb, and Burrowes.
Hole 17, Bywater Pool Road, Bywater,
Westfarthing
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Elthir
Grey Havens
May 23 2014, 4:50pm
Post #20 of 36
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... as I responded to CuriousG, I have neither corrected a typo [the post in question spells 'Illuvatar' at least four times, so it's not a 'mistake' in the sense of being accidental], nor anyone's grammar, nor anyone's spelling in general.
It is an Elvish name, often enough not spelled correctly in various threads. I though the poster to whom I was responding might want to know, or perhaps others who also add an L to Iluvatar for whatever reason.
I didn't mean to cause a side thread either but what I 'corrected' is a different animal than found in the general responses that followed.
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Elthir
Grey Havens
May 23 2014, 4:59pm
Post #21 of 36
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... yes.
But that helps my defense: I haven't corrected this either, and never do. And rarely employ the 'proper' diacritics myself.
Again, if someone consistently spelled Galadriel as 'Galladriel I bet someone might say something. That's not about grammar, English being a second language, nor general spelling errors.
Well someone besides me might say something 
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Elthir
Grey Havens
May 23 2014, 5:03pm
Post #22 of 36
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Well, there I had to 
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Brethil
Half-elven
May 23 2014, 5:32pm
Post #25 of 36
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certainly your spelling point is utterly correct; that's quite indefensible. As worthy others such as Darkstone and CG post though, if the point is quite clear it doesn't materially change the post. And as for a side-thread, I think its a worthwhile foray into the subject in general.
I *always* enjoy your posts tremendously, and always learn something in the way your reference multiple sources to make connections. I would never want you not to be posting here! The issue is more of keeping members active, and not having people afraid to post a larger and valuable idea because they might make a spelling or grammar error - especially members new to the site or to the RR. (I myself have the hardest time with Earendil - for twenty years I have spelled it Earandil....just one of those mental things. Its a work in progress. I hope.)
As for all those accents...I can't get them to work reliably. My computer does bizarre things, like shut down or open strange menus. I think they are Morgothy-sorts of things.
The next TORn Amateur Symposium is a special edition: the Jubilee TAS to celebrate 60 years of FOTR! If you have an LOTR idea you would like to write about, we'd love to see your writing featured there!
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