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Aragorn and Legolas

Laineth
Lorien

May 20 2014, 11:27pm

Post #1 of 20 (1348 views)
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Aragorn and Legolas Can't Post

Text removed at the request of the board member - Ataahua.


(This post was edited by Ataahua on Jan 23 2015, 6:45pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 21 2014, 3:30am

Post #2 of 20 (1151 views)
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Most Likely [In reply to] Can't Post

The strongest possibility is that Aragorn and Legolas first met when the Ranger captured Gollum and brought him to the Woodland Realm in Mirkwood. It is also possible that Aragorn visited Thranduil's Halls in his early wanderings, before his errantries in Rohan and Gondor.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


IdrilLalaith
Rivendell

May 21 2014, 3:35am

Post #3 of 20 (1128 views)
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It makes sense [In reply to] Can't Post

that he would have met Legolas in relation to Gollum. Weren't all of Aragorn's wanderings among men? I never got the impression that he went to Mirkwood, although I supposed it's quite possible.

TolkienBlog.com


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 21 2014, 3:51am

Post #4 of 20 (1122 views)
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Unknown [In reply to] Can't Post


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that he would have met Legolas in relation to Gollum. Weren't all of Aragorn's wanderings among men? I never got the impression that he went to Mirkwood, although I supposed it's quite possible.



Tolkien didn't say one way or the other.We know that Aragorn wandered far and wide before his service to Rohan and Gondor. At some point he traveled into Moria (this must have been long before Balin's attempt at recolonization). There is no reason to think that he might not have tested himself against Mirkwood.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Bracegirdle
Valinor


May 21 2014, 4:12am

Post #5 of 20 (1117 views)
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Aragorn was raised in Imladris... [In reply to] Can't Post

and would surely feel a kinship with all elves whether Noldor, Sindar or Half-elven. I believe he probably met Thranduil and Legolas in Mirkwood, likely even before the capture of Gollum.

"This sentence is false!"
-G. Greyhame


phij2
Rivendell


May 21 2014, 9:56am

Post #6 of 20 (1115 views)
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their relationship is beautiful... [In reply to] Can't Post

and i think that Aragorn would indeed have met Legolas in Mirkwood, but we must remember that it was not always the scary, dangerous place we see in the Hobbit, for it was previoulsy Greenwood, one of the most beautiful forests in middle earth.

Also, to an extent i think that when elves form bonds of friendship and love, they are often deeper and more meaningful than the relationships of man.

But their relationship is simply beautiful, it really cheers you up SmileHeart


squire
Half-elven


May 21 2014, 12:17pm

Post #7 of 20 (1105 views)
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Friends and subjects [In reply to] Can't Post

I've always read Legolas' repeated declarations of his love for Aragorn as an indication that they did not know each other before the adventure of the Fellowship. To start with, there is no reference to any such acquaintance in the story, either from the narrator or from their own dialogue. Of course, given Tolkien's writing style with his minimal depictions of all personal relationships, that is hardly surprising - and with fan fiction... well, who knows what fan fiction can do? Still, it always helps to have some positive indication from an author about something like a pre-existing friendship, rather than just supposing one out of readerly sympathy or interest.

But the quotes you provide do show that Tolkien regarded their relationship as an important thing in the story. There are two notable things about Legolas' statements.

One, we rarely hear Aragorn say anything similar about his regard for Legolas; his remarks like "There go three that I love" make no distinction between Legolas and Gimli and serve really just to elevate Merry to the status of the other two. I've always thought that the theme here is Aragorn's supernal charisma as a natural lord and King. Not just Legolas the Elf, but all men love him (and women, as Legolas notes) as soon as they spend some time with him. Such a quality would not be obvious in one who had spent decades as a lone Ranger (!), but it is necessary for us to believe it now if we are going to accept that Aragorn can elevate himself from a kind-hearted bandit and soldier of fortune to undisputed King of a land that has never heard of him even as he arrives at its gates. On the other hand, as far as the King himself having friends goes, we see far more affection shown by Aragorn towards his kinsman Halbarad, when the Grey Company arrives like the cavalry in the nick of time, or by Aragorn to Eomer when they are reunited at the Pelennor, than we see with Aragorn towards Legolas. Aragorn apparently regards the Elf as a newfound companion in an adventure, and remarks on his Elvish powers with an attitude of surprise and pleasure unlikely to be found in a friendship of many years.

And that's the other notable point. Legolas is an Elf, not a Man. His comments about loving Aragorn have a tone of surprise and self-discovery about them, in contrast to his earlier tone of keeping an emotional distance from his companions of the Fellowship. It's as if he had never conceived that any mortal could have such superior qualities as this Man does. This serves to elevate Aragorn in our eyes, of course - and also to highlight Tolkien's major theme that in the Fourth Age to come (if Sauron is defeated), Men led by Aragorn (and Faramir) will truly and deservedly inherit Middle-earth from the departing Elder Children.

The weak point of Legolas the Elf being Tolkien's spokesman for how well Aragorn will assume the leadership of a kingdom of Men he barely knows, is made up not just by Aragorn's effect on Eomer, but also on Faramir who loves Aragorn the minute he is woken by him in the Houses of Healing. Faramir is a stand-in for the people of Gondor, who have been similarly traumatized by the Shadow for generations but will now find themselves awakened by, healed by, and loved (collectively) by their new King.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


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Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 21 2014, 1:52pm

Post #8 of 20 (1089 views)
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Aragorn and Legolas were likely already acquainted, if not friends. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I've always read Legolas' repeated declarations of his love for Aragorn as an indication that they did not know each other before the adventure of the Fellowship. To start with, there is no reference to any such acquaintance in the story, either from the narrator or from their own dialogue. Of course, given Tolkien's writing style with his minimal depictions of all personal relationships, that is hardly surprising - and with fan fiction... well, who knows what fan fiction can do? Still, it always helps to have some positive indication from an author about something like a pre-existing friendship, rather than just supposing one out of readerly sympathy or interest.



According to Tolkien, Lord Elrond revealed Aragorn's heritage to him upon the Ranger's twentieth birthday. Aragorn went into the Wild soon after. He met and befriended Gandalf the Grey in his twenty-fifth year and began his period of great journeys and errantries the following year. Aragorn could have entered Mirkwood and met Legolas at any time after he turned twenty and before he began his service to Rohan. At the very least, I expect that the two became at least casually acquainted at the time when Aragorn captured Gollum and brought him to Thranduil's Halls. Still, their friendship might not have truly taken root until the formation of the Fellowship.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on May 21 2014, 1:53pm)


Darkstone
Immortal


May 21 2014, 3:42pm

Post #9 of 20 (1092 views)
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On the other hand [In reply to] Can't Post

`Alas! alas!' cried Legolas, and in his fair elvish face there was great distress. `The tidings that I was sent to bring must now be told. They are not good, but only here have I learned how evil they may seem to this company. Sméagol, who is now called Gollum, has escaped.'

It seems strange that if Legolas and Aragorn were friends Aragorn didn't mention this little fact to him when he handed over Gollum.

******************************************
Now doth Tinuviel put forth her skill and fairy-magic, and she sews Beren into this fell and makes him to the likeness of a great cat, and she teaches him how to sit and sprawl, to step and bound and trot in the semblance of a cat, till Huan's very whiskers bristled at the sight, and thereat Beren and Tinuviel laughed. Never however could Beren learn to screech or wail or to purr like any cat that ever walked, nor could Tinuviel awaken a glow in the dead eyes of the catskin -- "but we must put up with that," said she, "and thou hast the air of a very noble cat if thou but hold thy tongue." Then did they bid farewell to Huan and set out for the halls of Melko by easy journeys, for Beren was in great discomfort and heat within the fur of Oikeroi, and Tinuviel's heart became lighter awhile than it had been for long, and she stroked Beren or pulled his tail, and Beren was angry because he could not lash it in answer as fiercely as he wished.
-Book of Lost Tales II


Darkstone
Immortal


May 21 2014, 4:01pm

Post #10 of 20 (1085 views)
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My own totally unsupported theory... [In reply to] Can't Post

...is that Legolas rode out adventuring with Aragorn, Elladan, and Elrohir, especially when any of their orc hunting expeditions went into Mirkwood.

******************************************
Now doth Tinuviel put forth her skill and fairy-magic, and she sews Beren into this fell and makes him to the likeness of a great cat, and she teaches him how to sit and sprawl, to step and bound and trot in the semblance of a cat, till Huan's very whiskers bristled at the sight, and thereat Beren and Tinuviel laughed. Never however could Beren learn to screech or wail or to purr like any cat that ever walked, nor could Tinuviel awaken a glow in the dead eyes of the catskin -- "but we must put up with that," said she, "and thou hast the air of a very noble cat if thou but hold thy tongue." Then did they bid farewell to Huan and set out for the halls of Melko by easy journeys, for Beren was in great discomfort and heat within the fur of Oikeroi, and Tinuviel's heart became lighter awhile than it had been for long, and she stroked Beren or pulled his tail, and Beren was angry because he could not lash it in answer as fiercely as he wished.
-Book of Lost Tales II


Bracegirdle
Valinor


May 21 2014, 4:43pm

Post #11 of 20 (1082 views)
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WARE! WARE! The Speculators abound..... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
`Alas! alas!' cried Legolas, and in his fair elvish face there was great distress. `The tidings that I was sent to bring must now be told. They are not good, but only here have I learned how evil they may seem to this company. Sméagol, who is now called Gollum, has escaped.'

It seems strange that if Legolas and Aragorn were friends Aragorn didn't mention this little fact to him when he handed over Gollum.

Although I don’t believe that Aragorn handed Gollum over to Legolas personally (which I’m sure you didn’t intend to convey), I nevertheless am going to reverse my opinion that Aragorn “knew” Legolas pre-Council. (After all we’re just speculating here.)
As Elrond introduces the Council members:

Quote
There was also a strange Elf clad in green and brown, Legolas, a messenger from his father, Thranduil, the King of the Elves of Northern Mirkwood.

This seems to indicate that Legolas was “strange” or “previously unknown” to the members of the Council (incl. Aragorn), (as he was never, in future exploits , referred to as “strange” in any way, (for an Elf)).
Yet the conundrum still exists that Aragorn never met Legolas (be it no more than a “how do”) in his (Aragorn’s) 60 plus years of wandering.

"This sentence is false!"
-G. Greyhame


Darkstone
Immortal


May 21 2014, 4:53pm

Post #12 of 20 (1070 views)
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WARE! WARE! Potential slash fiction seed!! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Although I don’t believe that Aragorn handed Gollum over to Legolas personally (which I’m sure you didn’t intend to convey),...



Right. But if they were friends I'd think they'd meet and talk before, during, and/or after Aragorn took a long, hot, much desired strawberry-scented bubble bath.

I brought him there at last and gave him to the Elves, for we had agreed that this should be done; and I was glad to be rid of his company, for he stank.

******************************************
Now doth Tinuviel put forth her skill and fairy-magic, and she sews Beren into this fell and makes him to the likeness of a great cat, and she teaches him how to sit and sprawl, to step and bound and trot in the semblance of a cat, till Huan's very whiskers bristled at the sight, and thereat Beren and Tinuviel laughed. Never however could Beren learn to screech or wail or to purr like any cat that ever walked, nor could Tinuviel awaken a glow in the dead eyes of the catskin -- "but we must put up with that," said she, "and thou hast the air of a very noble cat if thou but hold thy tongue." Then did they bid farewell to Huan and set out for the halls of Melko by easy journeys, for Beren was in great discomfort and heat within the fur of Oikeroi, and Tinuviel's heart became lighter awhile than it had been for long, and she stroked Beren or pulled his tail, and Beren was angry because he could not lash it in answer as fiercely as he wished.
-Book of Lost Tales II


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 21 2014, 4:58pm

Post #13 of 20 (1067 views)
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Perhaps Gandalf warned Aragorn away from Mirkwood. [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandalf may have advised young Aragorn to avoid Mirkwood and the Wood-elves' Realm, knowing that Thranduil was isolationist in his views and especially so with evil returning to the Forest since Sauron revealed himself in Mordor.

Still, it may be that Tolkien was just indicating in the Council of Elrond that Legolas was unknown to the Elves of Rivendell, and especially to Frodo, another newcomer. Aragorn could have been introduced to Legolas in Mirkwood without them becoming friends until after joining the Company of the Nine Walkers.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Darkstone
Immortal


May 21 2014, 5:15pm

Post #14 of 20 (1076 views)
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And perhaps Thranduil warned Legolas... [In reply to] Can't Post

...away from Lothlorien and, by association, Rivendell:

The Elvish folk of this realm had migrated from the south, being the kin and neighbors of the Elves of Lórien; but they had dwelt in Greenwood the Great east of Anduin. In the Second Age their king, Oropher, had withdrawn northward beyond the Gladden Fields. This he did to be free from the power and encroachments of the Dwarves of Moria, which had grown to be the greatest of the mansions of the Dwarves recorded in history; and also he resented the intrusions of Celeborn and Galadriel into Lórien.
-The History of Galadriel and Celeborn, Unfinished Tales.

Indeed, Legolas seems to be pretty much clueless about Lothlorien:

‘It is long since any of my own folk journeyed hither back to the land whence we wandered in ages long ago,’ said Legolas, ‘but we hear that Lórien is not yet deserted, for there is a secret power here that holds evil from the land. Nevertheless its folk are seldom seen, and maybe they dwell now deep in the woods and far from the northern border.’
-Lothlórien, FOTR

Then again, Celeborn does seem to be the only one outside of Mirkwood who knows who the heck Legolas is:

'Welcome son of Thranduil! Too seldom do my kindred journey hither from the North.'
-The Mirror of Galadriel, FOTR

******************************************
Now doth Tinuviel put forth her skill and fairy-magic, and she sews Beren into this fell and makes him to the likeness of a great cat, and she teaches him how to sit and sprawl, to step and bound and trot in the semblance of a cat, till Huan's very whiskers bristled at the sight, and thereat Beren and Tinuviel laughed. Never however could Beren learn to screech or wail or to purr like any cat that ever walked, nor could Tinuviel awaken a glow in the dead eyes of the catskin -- "but we must put up with that," said she, "and thou hast the air of a very noble cat if thou but hold thy tongue." Then did they bid farewell to Huan and set out for the halls of Melko by easy journeys, for Beren was in great discomfort and heat within the fur of Oikeroi, and Tinuviel's heart became lighter awhile than it had been for long, and she stroked Beren or pulled his tail, and Beren was angry because he could not lash it in answer as fiercely as he wished.
-Book of Lost Tales II


Laineth
Lorien

May 21 2014, 10:01pm

Post #15 of 20 (1056 views)
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More Thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post

Legolas clearly has not traveled much – his comments about Lothlorien and Hollin show that. However, I do think it is highly likely that Aragorn visited Mirkwood several times. The Council of Elrond is clearly from Frodo’s point of view:


Quote
Elrond was there, and several others were seated in silence about him. Frodo saw Glorfindel and Gloin; and in a corner alone Strider was sitting, clad in his old travel-worn clothes again. Elrond drew Frodo to a seat by his side, and presented him to the company, saying:

'Here, my friends is the hobbit, Frodo son of Drogo. Few have ever come hither through greater peril or on an errand more urgent.'

He then pointed out and named those whom Frodo had not met before. There was a younger dwarf at Gloin's side: his son Gimli. Beside Glorfindel there were several other counsellors of Elrond's household, of whom Erestor was the chief; and with him was Galdor, an Elf from the Grey Havens who had come on an errand from Cirdan the Shipwright. There was also a strange Elf clad in green and brown, Legolas, a messenger from his father, Thranduil, the King of the Elves of Northern Mirkwood. And seated a little apart was a tall man with a fair and noble face, dark-haired and grey-eyed, proud and stern of glance.


So that explains the “strange” comment – Frodo has never met an elf from Mirkwood before. As for Aragorn’s comment about bringing Gollum to Mirkwood, he’s in a serious council with only a few people he knows well. It’s not the time for personal comments. Besides, he probably stayed in Mirkwood to rest and resupply for a few days, before leaving again.

And it makes complete sense to me that Aragorn wouldn’t tell Legolas about Gollum, even as close friends. It’s a top secret mission and if Sauron gets any hint that they have knowledge about the Ring, they’re dead. Gandalf (and Aragorn) cannot take the risk of a possible security breach.

One thing I would loved to see is more character thoughts and interaction. “The Ring Goes South” would have been a perfect time to add some in, but the beginning of their journey just gets skipped over. “The Great Debate” is really the only time we get into Legolas’s thoughts for a while. And since we saw the friendships between Eomer and Aragorn, and Legolas and Gimli start in the text, I figured the friendship between Legolas and Aragorn began before the Quest, since it didn’t show up in the text.

Legolas’s comments didn’t come across with surprise, at least for me. And while Aragorn may double check that what he thinks he sees is what Legolas sees, he is well used to Elven abilities. Also, it is Legolas that goes scouting with Aragorn around Amon Hen, while the rest of the fellowship stays behind.

The problem is we rarely get into Aragorn’s head; pretty much the only time is when the Fellowship breaks up.
We have a few more hints, in “The Passing of the Grey Company”:


Quote
'I cannot say yet,' Aragorn answered. 'As for the king, he will go to the muster that he commanded at Edoras, four nights from now. And there, I think, he will hear tidings of war, and the Riders of Rohan will go down to Minas Tirith. But for myself, and any that will go with me ...'

'I for one!' cried Legolas.

And:

'Where is Aragorn?' he asked.

'In a high chamber of the Burg,' said Legolas. 'He has neither rested nor slept, I think. He went thither some hours ago, saying that he must take thought, and only his kinsman, Halbarad, went with him; but some dark doubt or care sits on him.

And:

But as Aragorn came to the booth where he was to lodge with Legolas and Gimli, and his companions had gone in, there came the Lady Eowyn after him and called to him.


So Legolas is adamant that he will go with Aragorn, and we see another passage from him about Aragorn’s psyche – he has to know Aragorn well to read him that well. And then, even though Halbarad is there, Aragorn rooms with Legolas and Gimli.

Again, the problem is we rarely get an insight into their feelings. But based on what we have, and Tolkien’s writing style, I think it’s fairly certain to say they were good friends.

As for Halbarad, I got the impression Aragorn’s large exclamation was only because of the dire situation they were in, as he seems to focus on that:


Quote
'And you have found him also!' cried Aragorn. Giving his reins to Merry, he ran forward and embraced the newcomer. 'Halbarad!' he said. 'Of all joys this is the least expected!'

[cut]

'But I did not summon you,' said Aragorn, 'save only in wish. My thoughts have often turned to you, and seldom more than tonight; yet I have sent no word. But come! All such matters must wait. You find us riding in haste and danger. Ride with us now, if the king will give his leave.'


When Aragorn meets Eomer in the battle, he basically says ‘I told you so.’ And then, after he’s crowned, Aragorn says:


Quote
And last of all Aragorn greeted Eomer of Rohan, and they embraced, and Aragorn said: 'Between us there can be no word of giving or taking, nor of reward; for we are brethren. In happy hour did Eorl ride from the North, and never has any league of peoples been more blessed, so that neither has ever failed the other, nor shall fail. Now, as you know, we have laid Theoden the Renowned in a tomb in the Hallows, and there he shall lie for ever among the Kings of Gondor, if you will. Or if you desire it, we will come to Rohan and bring him back to rest with his own people.' – The Steward and the King

And:

In Gondor the King Elessar now ruled, and in Arnor also. In all the lands of those realms of old he was king, save in Rohan only; for he renewed to Eomer the gift of Cirion, and Eomer took again the Oath of Eorl. Often he fulfilled it. For though Sauron had passed, the hatreds and evils that he bred had not died, and the King of the West had many enemies to subdue before the White Tree could grow in peace. – Appendix A


While I am sure they were friends, their friendship is emphasized mainly in political terms. Aragorn recognizes Rohan (and thus Eomer) as equal to Gondor and his rank. Gimli settles in Rohan, the hobbits stay in the Shire. Legolas is the only one to move close to Aragorn, and I think that’s telling.


DaughterofLaketown
Gondor


May 22 2014, 2:49pm

Post #16 of 20 (1021 views)
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Yeah apparently there was a rumor a long time ago when the movies came out that Aragorn married Legolas?!?!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

Obviously this was not true.Frown


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 22 2014, 2:59pm

Post #17 of 20 (1015 views)
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Yeah. No. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Yeah apparently there was a rumor a long time ago when the movies came out that Aragorn married Legolas?!?!?! Obviously this was not true.Frown



No, not even the Sylvan Elves that Tolkien described were as sexually open-minded as Wendy and Richard Pini's Wolf-riders and other elf-tribes of ElfQuest. I don't think that Tolkien would have approved of Elven orgies. On the other hand, I can't imagine that all Avari tribes shared exactly the same attitudes and mores.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on May 22 2014, 3:02pm)


Bracegirdle
Valinor


May 22 2014, 3:07pm

Post #18 of 20 (1002 views)
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Then we need not talk about it... I hope! [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah apparently there was a rumor a long time ago when the movies came out that Aragorn married Legolas?!?!?! by DaughterofLaketown
Post: Obviously this was not true


"This sentence is false!"
-G. Greyhame


DaughterofLaketown
Gondor


May 22 2014, 3:18pm

Post #19 of 20 (1022 views)
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Yeah I don't think Tolkien intended this to be seen that way. [In reply to] Can't Post

In general sex is just not a topic in Tolkien books with a few exceptions.


PhantomS
Rohan


May 26 2014, 5:50pm

Post #20 of 20 (986 views)
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not just among Men [In reply to] Can't Post

We have to note that Aragorn was raised in a time where Men practically ruled the world in terms of territory, so he would be wandering among men for the most part. He did spend a lot of time in Rivendell as well as Lothlorien (where 'the name of Aragorn son of Arathorn is known' ), and he poked his nose into the eastern door of Moria, though he did not pass through all the way (which is why he is unable to lead the Fellowship under the mountain).

We tend to think that Aragorn only travelled when he was on his young man's tour of the world, yet he can range with the Sons of Elrond, walk up to the Elvenking and ask for Gollum to be imprisoned, and scoured the Brown Lands and other places for Gollum. His day job takes him to the Shire and undoubtedly the occasional trip to Lindon and maybe even the Blue Mountains (where would the Rangers get their horsehoes and weaponry?). It's only Gondor that he pauses about entering,but in Rohan he seems at home.

 
 

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