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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
I would love to see the Hobbit remade!
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Snowghost77
Lorien


May 23 2014, 2:24am

Post #176 of 198 (509 views)
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I've found that I can... [In reply to] Can't Post

Dissect just about any film for flaws if I choose...I mean if you go into every movie with the expectation of complete and absolute logic, you will take yourself out of the experience. You have to understand nobody us perfect, and all film makers miss things, or have flaws in film. We are all fallible.
It's understandable to place extra scrutiny on a genre and story were are all very fond of, in hopes that it meets our expectations. I've come to the conclusion that films will never meet the version I'd like to see on screen, simply because nobody else is me. Everyone's vision is different. What one perceives as obvious flaws, might be difference in aesthetics....structure choices, or even unconcerned "nitpicks" by the director.
In defense of thorins duel with azog...being a young inexperienced warrior facing a foe with extensive combat prowess, about a 200 lb weight advantage, as well as a much longer reaching weapon and increased heft...attacking from the high ground, makes thorins lack of strikes very believable. If you study edged weapon combat, with perhaps the exception of the samurai...sword fights did not consist of the choreographed parries and reposites in an elegant dance. Edged weapon combat especially in large scale battles...generally turned into more feral and brutal engagements, where the first to land a devastating blow after wildly swinging at each other, was the survivor. The fact that thorin "froze up" upon initial engagement and was knocked to the ground, .is quite believable. ...I've seen it first hand with privates in combat for the first time. Now we don't know how much experience thorin had at the time, but judging by his initial reaction. ..not much.
Peace.

The path of the Warrior is paved in blood, sweat, tears and ultimately death. He weeps for the fallen, bleeds for the cause, and sweats till he dies.
In memory of operation FALLEN ANGEL and the mighty Heroes of SEAL team 6, the PJ's, SOCOM aviation, and all those who fell in the Tangi Valley.
- Task force Warrior will not forget you


pettytyrant101
Lorien


May 23 2014, 2:40am

Post #177 of 198 (496 views)
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I dont [In reply to] Can't Post

go into films looking for complete logic- look at my avatar and sig, I'm a Whovian, not much sense in it thank goodness, its about a regenerating alien in a time travelling magic box.

What I dont expect is that when watching scenes based on a book in which the author has laid out plainly enough for young children to follow why Bilbo is doing things, that the film will have me scratching my head trying to work out what is supposed to be happening and why characters are doing what they are doing.

That indicates something has gone wrong.

I wasnt expecting a lot from TH, I never wanted LotR's lite or a prequel to it. I just wanted an honest adaptation of a book I immensely enjoyed- and that book is not really very hard to adapt, and certainly not in comparison to LotR's- yet its barely recognisable, confused (in comparison to the clarity of the source) and chock full of illogical stuff.

And we all know if we are honest the only reason the whole Azog/Thorin fight and Bilbo killing things, and all the hugging, is only there because of a last minute decision to switch to 3 films- it stands out because almost all the other scenes round it were shot by actors who had no idea this scene would end up in it, and so dont react or act like it has happened because it hadnt.

Thorin's attitude to Bilbo at the start of DOS is no different than it was in AUJ before the end scenes, because when they made it all the hugs hadn't happened, so no-one is playing it that way. The ending of AUJ has zero impact on the character interactons following it.

It reminds me a bit of Liv Tyler saying if she had known how they were going to rewrite things as they did she would have played Arwen differently in the leaving scene at Rivendell.

"A lot of our heroes depress me. But when they made this particular hero they didn't give him a gun, they gave him a screwdriver so he could fix things. They didn't give him a tank, or a warship, or an x-wing fighter, they gave him a call box from which you can call for help. And they didn't give him a superpower, or pointy ears or a heat ray, they gave him an extra heart. And that's an extraordinary thing.
There will never come a time when we don't need a hero like the Doctor."- Steven Moffat


J Pierpont Flathead
Rivendell

May 23 2014, 2:47am

Post #178 of 198 (501 views)
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Contract Killers [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
...there is a film on Amazon Prime and Vimeo OnDemand called Contract Killers (2014) that i starred in and produced if you want to have a look at it .. microbudget action film thats won several awards at various festivals .. good and violent Evil

The teaser:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeC6bqZhLNI

I can see why you have Tarantino bolded. ;)


Ferny
The Shire


May 23 2014, 2:49am

Post #179 of 198 (488 views)
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. [In reply to] Can't Post

i'd give my right ey...


oh wait...Pirate

Bill Ferny Snr in The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug

YouTube | https://www.youtube.com/user/FIGJAM1200A
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Facebook Official
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Twitter | @dallasbarnett3
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https://www.imdb.me/dallasbarnett


Snowghost77
Lorien


May 23 2014, 3:08am

Post #180 of 198 (498 views)
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personally. .. [In reply to] Can't Post

I've had no issue following what's going on and why characters are doing what they do...which leads me to believe...to quote the big lebowski...."that's...like..your opinion man"...

I've never thought thorins willingness to give up to save Bilbo was odd. Thorin is a commander, a commander does not have to like his men, only lead and look out for them. I've always found his increasing struggle with his role as leader of Bilbo intriguing. As a trained commander...As real life commanders are...he is not only a leader and operations planner...he is also responsible for the lives of his men. It's obvious he struggles with the latter due to Bilbo bring a hobbit, as evident by his remarks to gandalf at bag end. You can see the struggle within, yet the noble leader in him always prevails...que trolls. You can see he hates to, but knows it's the right move...considering Bilbo is an integral part in reclaiming the arkenstone. Perhaps thorin was banking on gandalf saving them, and thus took the risk. I like to think he simply could not condemn bilbo to death.
All my opinion of course..except the role of real life commander.

In my opinon, the book version is even more ludicrous! I mean getting sacked one by one without even realizing what's going on? How does a troll hide and throw a sack over your head?? And then how does it happen to the whole company....how did they wade into that over and over again?
Both scenarios have flaws, and I much prefer the film version...I can't imagine one filmed version of tolkien's take where the audience doesn't take a WTF??? Stance.
Peace.

The path of the Warrior is paved in blood, sweat, tears and ultimately death. He weeps for the fallen, bleeds for the cause, and sweats till he dies.
In memory of operation FALLEN ANGEL and the mighty Heroes of SEAL team 6, the PJ's, SOCOM aviation, and all those who fell in the Tangi Valley.
- Task force Warrior will not forget you


Sildarion~Valenar
Bree


May 23 2014, 10:26am

Post #181 of 198 (476 views)
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DP [In reply to] Can't Post

 

On a mission to spread Tolkien's lesser known works among the general public.
Like and share my facebook page:

[url="https://www.facebook.com/thetalesfromarda?ref=hl"]The Tales From Arda

(This post was edited by Sildarion~Valenar on May 23 2014, 10:28am)


Sildarion~Valenar
Bree


May 23 2014, 10:29am

Post #182 of 198 (507 views)
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If I may add someything ... [In reply to] Can't Post

characters saying or doing something illogical is not an opinion.
As pettityrant says (great nick by the by), the scene with Thorin and Co. surrendering the weapons so that they can have the chance to die alongside Bilbo makes absolutely no sense.
No matter how noble anyone is, there is no sense in that, and even the most idiotic trolls would get that it is supremely silly.

Now if one can ignore that issue with the scene and still enjoy it, is something like an opinion.
Scenes which are blatantly presented as silly cannot depend on opinions and are objectively silly.

Ooh, I still like the films though. If that's a consolation.
Smile

On a mission to spread Tolkien's lesser known works among the general public.
Like and share my facebook page:

[url"https://www.facebook.com/thetalesfromarda?ref=hl"]The Tales From Arda


pettytyrant101
Lorien


May 23 2014, 5:07pm

Post #183 of 198 (458 views)
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I am not opposed [In reply to] Can't Post

to change- I agree each dwarf coming up separately and only Thorin offering up any resistance is not going to work on screen (apart from anything else it would take to long with only a repetition of action happening: them all being caught one by one)- no, its not change I object to, I dont advocate just puttting the book unchanged to the screen they are different mediums, its an adaptation after all, its change that makes a mess of things that should not be a mess I am objecting to.

Sometimes its small things- like the trolls making no sense, or knowing words like 'sautéed' and 'parasite' but not what a burglar is, or even why they changed the humorous dialogue "Lots and none" ect which is perfectly suited to Freemans performance and acting style and to replace it with trolls who should be wearing clown shoes and have red noses, or what possessed them to change 'burrahobbit' to the ridiculous 'burglarhobbit'.
Or Gandalf setting fire to the tress they are in!

But sometimes its big stuff like the utter mess made of Bilbo's character arc (and by extension Thorins), Bilbo's motivations and his actions are not being supported by any character development which justifies it. Not to mention his story becomes increasingly out of focus among the myriad of additional story strands.

And sometimes its just plain bizarre- like setting up Laketown as being effectively under martial law meaning the dwarves have to be smuggled in- then having a bunch of orcs pile in and have a big fight without anyone living there seeming to notice. Why ladle on the set-up of how difficult Laketown is to get into if you are then going to just completely ignore all this whenever you want a big action scene?

As a viewer I have no idea what bits of the narrative presented are important- you might be forgiven when watching that thinking them having to be smuggled in is important to the plot- but its just wasting my time as whenever PJ has a new cool idea if it contradicts something else that's already happened they just put it in anyway and abandon the original premise. It turns out Laketown being difficult to get into isn't important at all, save for so long as its needed, then its just gone and stomped on for the sake of an action scene.

I find this to be a very sloppy way to write a narrative in any medium.

"A lot of our heroes depress me. But when they made this particular hero they didn't give him a gun, they gave him a screwdriver so he could fix things. They didn't give him a tank, or a warship, or an x-wing fighter, they gave him a call box from which you can call for help. And they didn't give him a superpower, or pointy ears or a heat ray, they gave him an extra heart. And that's an extraordinary thing.
There will never come a time when we don't need a hero like the Doctor."- Steven Moffat

(This post was edited by pettytyrant101 on May 23 2014, 5:11pm)


J Pierpont Flathead
Rivendell

May 23 2014, 7:51pm

Post #184 of 198 (424 views)
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Intrigued [In reply to] Can't Post

You're saying that Jackson and the writers take the expedient or lazy way out too much; not enough sense and too much spectacle at the cost of a more faithful adaptation. I'm intrigued when I read your criticisms which relate to the quality of the storytelling by the writers, but each time I find myself wondering how it was handled in the book as a comparison. It's been long enough since I've read the book that I just don't remember well enough about things like the tree fire and getting into Laketown (who and how).

Your posts are long enough that I feel selfish for asking, but could you elaborate with details from the book and how you might yourself change them for an adaptation? I'm not demanding that because I don't think critics should be expected to make movies themselves to have license to criticize, but it would be helpful to know how much of a deviation there actually is from the book to determine the extent of the damage.


(This post was edited by J Pierpont Flathead on May 23 2014, 7:52pm)


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


May 23 2014, 8:23pm

Post #185 of 198 (428 views)
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I found it very odd... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
I've never thought thorins willingness to give up to save Bilbo was odd. Thorin is a commander, a commander does not have to like his men, only lead and look out for them. I've always found his increasing struggle with his role as leader of Bilbo intriguing. As a trained commander...As real life commanders are...he is not only a leader and operations planner...he is also responsible for the lives of his men.


The thing is, he wasn't saving Bilbo, because Bilbo would still have been cooked alongside everyone else had Gandalf not intervened. For Thorin to do what he did was completely pointless and made him look as dumb as Bert, Tom, and William. We went from Thorin explaining to Balin in Bag-End how important it was for him to reclaim Erebor, to just giving everything up 15 minutes of screen-time later and allowing himself and his entire company to be roasted alongside a Hobbit that he didn't even want tagging along in the first place. It just didn't make sense considering what we knew to be the case up until that point.


I agree that it would have been silly to film this scene like the book, with Trolls hiding in the trees and catching the Dwarves in sacks. But that doesn't excuse Jackson and his writers' nonsensical and sloppy way of handling it.


pettytyrant101
Lorien


May 23 2014, 8:28pm

Post #186 of 198 (415 views)
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In the book [In reply to] Can't Post

the pine cones set fire to the wargs- the wargs go howling madly about the wood and set stuff on fire- then the fires are put out except for any near the tress they are up, those fires the goblin stop from spreading outwards but let them spread inwards, and they pile wood against the trees and sing their song as the flames grow closer and closer.

And at Laketown Thorin just declares who h he is and given his name and title he is taken to see the Master of Laketown. There is no obstacle to them entering.

But I think to list everything I would do differently would not be so much a post as an essay. Wink

"A lot of our heroes depress me. But when they made this particular hero they didn't give him a gun, they gave him a screwdriver so he could fix things. They didn't give him a tank, or a warship, or an x-wing fighter, they gave him a call box from which you can call for help. And they didn't give him a superpower, or pointy ears or a heat ray, they gave him an extra heart. And that's an extraordinary thing.
There will never come a time when we don't need a hero like the Doctor."- Steven Moffat

(This post was edited by pettytyrant101 on May 23 2014, 8:28pm)


J Pierpont Flathead
Rivendell

May 23 2014, 8:42pm

Post #187 of 198 (409 views)
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Bard [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
And at Laketown Thorin just declares who h he is and given his name and title he is taken to see the Master of Laketown. There is no obstacle to them entering.

I guess that they used this device for the dwarves to meet Bard. Given that the writers wanted to give Bard more story, how would you do it? I think I'd be inclined to give him his story in parallel with the dwarves (cuts back and forth) but not force an interaction until it is fated by the book so that I'd not screw around with the dwarves story and timeline.


pettytyrant101
Lorien


May 23 2014, 8:52pm

Post #188 of 198 (404 views)
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There is nothing wrong [In reply to] Can't Post

with how they introduced Bard.

It is I would say necessary if adapting it to film to introduce Bard earlier in some fashion. And to have him as the means by which they get to Laketown is fine.
Though he would not be someone up for hire if it were me as there would be no need.

If I was doing it the barrel sequence would have more closely followed the book and so the raft men would have been in it, and Bilbo would have had to do spend the night alone out of the water whilst the dwarves are still in the barrels, stealing bread and avoiding getting caught and catching a cold, and after he gets the dwarves out I would have included Bard there with the raft-men on his way back to Laketown.

And I would have saved the time to do so by not making the barrel sequence a fair ground ride and not spending nearly as much time in Laketown, but I would have included the celebrations thrown by the town as a chance to get to know some Laketowners and as a backdrop for setting up the politics more (think how many scenes in House of Cards take place at fund-raisers and banquets).

That's off the top of my head anyway.

"A lot of our heroes depress me. But when they made this particular hero they didn't give him a gun, they gave him a screwdriver so he could fix things. They didn't give him a tank, or a warship, or an x-wing fighter, they gave him a call box from which you can call for help. And they didn't give him a superpower, or pointy ears or a heat ray, they gave him an extra heart. And that's an extraordinary thing.
There will never come a time when we don't need a hero like the Doctor."- Steven Moffat


Snowghost77
Lorien


May 23 2014, 10:41pm

Post #189 of 198 (383 views)
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well, you have to realize.... [In reply to] Can't Post

At the moment of surrender, they had know idea what would happen to them...how could the know they would be cooked?
I don't believe they could see the future.
And you judge Jacksons approach so harshly and criticize, .then you must also do the same for tolkien...As ypu stated, it was quit silly...it seems Jackson was in a loose loose situation.

The path of the Warrior is paved in blood, sweat, tears and ultimately death. He weeps for the fallen, bleeds for the cause, and sweats till he dies.
In memory of operation FALLEN ANGEL and the mighty Heroes of SEAL team 6, the PJ's, SOCOM aviation, and all those who fell in the Tangi Valley.
- Task force Warrior will not forget you


Snowghost77
Lorien


May 23 2014, 10:47pm

Post #190 of 198 (379 views)
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Well my friend.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Until you are responsible for the lives of men, where decisions you make mean life or death to others....you will never understand what people will do to save others in combat, despite how ludicrous is seems in hindsight. Jackson never served in the military, but he did capture the spirit of leaders faced with tough decisions where life of men your responsible for hang in the balance.
There is something that happens to you when the lives of others are in your hands. Even just one...you could see the frustration on thorins face...The delima.

The path of the Warrior is paved in blood, sweat, tears and ultimately death. He weeps for the fallen, bleeds for the cause, and sweats till he dies.
In memory of operation FALLEN ANGEL and the mighty Heroes of SEAL team 6, the PJ's, SOCOM aviation, and all those who fell in the Tangi Valley.
- Task force Warrior will not forget you


Snowghost77
Lorien


May 23 2014, 11:12pm

Post #191 of 198 (379 views)
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I think alot of decisions must have been tough... [In reply to] Can't Post

For jackson. It seems to me that the troll scene could have played out in only 4 ways:
1. The dwarves fight to the death and kill all the trolls...fans would have gone ape s#÷t.

2. Dwarves are all knocked out cold and csptured...could have worked, but would make them appear weak like in the book.

3. Fight till gandalf shows up and saves them. In opinion this might have served best.
4. The way it was filmed..trolls force a surrender somehow.

For the record, I don't really think the filmed version is the best they could have come up with...I just defend they're decision to have thorin surrender to save bilbo. What should he have done? Let bilbo die? I realize he should have never been in that position in the first place, but we're debating the actions as it played out. This is why I defend thorins decision within context of the filmed scene.

The path of the Warrior is paved in blood, sweat, tears and ultimately death. He weeps for the fallen, bleeds for the cause, and sweats till he dies.
In memory of operation FALLEN ANGEL and the mighty Heroes of SEAL team 6, the PJ's, SOCOM aviation, and all those who fell in the Tangi Valley.
- Task force Warrior will not forget you


Snowghost77
Lorien


May 24 2014, 9:10am

Post #192 of 198 (372 views)
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Well brother... [In reply to] Can't Post

Thinking something is illogical is an opinion of itself. What one person deems illogical might not be so to another, don't you think?
Example:
When facing a near ambush,.logic would say that you put distance between yourself and the enemy and take cover. However, army tactics and battle drills teaches that when near ambushed, you throw all Pyro, and assault directly into the ambush..rushing the enemy. Many would think this an illogical move, but It's been proven that this tactic provides the best chance for survival.
Peace.

The path of the Warrior is paved in blood, sweat, tears and ultimately death. He weeps for the fallen, bleeds for the cause, and sweats till he dies.
In memory of operation FALLEN ANGEL and the mighty Heroes of SEAL team 6, the PJ's, SOCOM aviation, and all those who fell in the Tangi Valley.
- Task force Warrior will not forget you


Snowghost77
Lorien


May 24 2014, 9:27am

Post #193 of 198 (364 views)
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My friend... [In reply to] Can't Post

It's quite obvious you are breaking down and analyzing the ins and outs of these movies way more than I do, or even care to. I honestly see your points, and recognize the flaws you point out...The difference being, I just don't care that they are made. For me it takes away nothing from the movie experience. Like you said, it's an adaptation, and I fully expected jackson to alter, fabricate and embellish the story. I rather enjoy his action pieces and alterations. But that's just my opinion.
I completely respect your thoughts and views on the matter, and actually agree with many, but like I said. ..they just don't bother me near as much as you.
I've enjoyed this debate, but I feel we've beat this horse to death. I won't debate ones opinions in order to change them, and I salute your vigilance on your stance. Till next time brother.

The path of the Warrior is paved in blood, sweat, tears and ultimately death. He weeps for the fallen, bleeds for the cause, and sweats till he dies.
In memory of operation FALLEN ANGEL and the mighty Heroes of SEAL team 6, the PJ's, SOCOM aviation, and all those who fell in the Tangi Valley.
- Task force Warrior will not forget you


AshNazg
Gondor


May 24 2014, 11:30am

Post #194 of 198 (370 views)
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Warner Bros. That's what happened [In reply to] Can't Post

They're really the worst company, way too much studio interference in everything they produce.


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


May 24 2014, 4:58pm

Post #195 of 198 (345 views)
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The difference... [In reply to] Can't Post

...is that Tolkien's version makes sense. Yes, it's very silly and light-hearted, but it makes sense. Tolkien's Dwarves were caught by surprise. Jackson's Dwarves gave themselves up to die alongside a Hobbit that most of them didn't even want there.

I think Jackson should have had the Trolls subdue the Dwarves by force instead of just having the Dwarves throw down their weapons and give up. Maybe have one of the Trolls grab a large branch and proceed to knock the lights out of the Dwarves a few at a time, have another one grab a huge rock and knock a few more out of commission. If Azog could send multiple Dwarves flying with a single swing of his mace, then the Trolls ought to have been able to do that and then some.


Quote
At the moment of surrender, they had know idea what would happen to them...how could the know they would be cooked?
I don't believe they could see the future.


What did they think was going to happen? That they were just going to throw down their weapons and the Trolls were going to let them all go?


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


May 24 2014, 5:10pm

Post #196 of 198 (345 views)
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It depends on what you think the weakest points of this adaptation are... [In reply to] Can't Post

The main things that bug me about this trilogy are as follows:

-the decision to make 3 films
-the inclusion of Azog
-the Tauriel/Kili/Legolas business
-the Smaug chase through Erebor
-the Disney villain Great Goblin
-the ridiculous stone giants scene
-the way "Roast Mutton" ends with Thorin and Co. giving up

All of these things are due to either Jackson, Boyens, Walsh, or some combination of the three. So I tend to believe that the main fault lies with lack of restraint on the part of the director and writers, not with WB. The one thing WB can be blamed for is allowing Jackson complete freedom to do whatever he wanted, and giving him as much cash as he needed to do so.


Snowghost77
Lorien


May 24 2014, 6:39pm

Post #197 of 198 (332 views)
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Well I never thought tolkien's version made much sense... [In reply to] Can't Post

But that's just a matter of opinion. I do however completely agree with you on the fact that a better version was out there, and quite like your idea. It's very true, the trolls surely could have smacked the dwarves unconscious fairly easy. I guess when your caught off guard by so many at once, it was hard to zero in on one particularly...especially when they are pretty dim to begin with. But I would have liked your idea a bit more I think.
I still stand by thorins surrender to save bilbo based solely on the context of the scene. PJ is trying to play up the noble caring and heroic leader (despite a gruff exterrior) much more than the book ever did. He has succeeded in that in my opinion.

The path of the Warrior is paved in blood, sweat, tears and ultimately death. He weeps for the fallen, bleeds for the cause, and sweats till he dies.
In memory of operation FALLEN ANGEL and the mighty Heroes of SEAL team 6, the PJ's, SOCOM aviation, and all those who fell in the Tangi Valley.
- Task force Warrior will not forget you


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea


May 27 2014, 12:05am

Post #198 of 198 (324 views)
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This... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
It depends on what you think the weakest points of this adaptation are...

The main things that bug me about this trilogy are as follows:

-the decision to make 3 films
-the inclusion of Azog
-the Tauriel/Kili/Legolas business
-the Smaug chase through Erebor
-the Disney villain Great Goblin
-the ridiculous stone giants scene
-the way "Roast Mutton" ends with Thorin and Co. giving up

All of these things are due to either Jackson, Boyens, Walsh, or some combination of the three. So I tend to believe that the main fault lies with lack of restraint on the part of the director and writers, not with WB. The one thing WB can be blamed for is allowing Jackson complete freedom to do whatever he wanted, and giving him as much cash as he needed to do so.


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