|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
boldog
Rohan
Apr 29 2014, 8:29am
Post #1 of 33
(869 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Why is the Witch king so called?
|
Can't Post
|
|
One thing I have never understood is why this villain is called the Witch king. How did this come about, in Tolkiens mind, and in ME lore? There has never been any mention of witches in Middle earth before, so how does this guy manage to come about calling himself a witch king?? Arent witches women? Could the Witch King be a woman? Im just confused about this character.
Any help will be appreciated
I believe that Azog and Bolg are possibly the only two orcs who may be an exception to the typical evil nature of an orc. Azog had brought up his son, well enough that he actually acknowledges him as his own son. That is a first for any orc. And Bolg sets out to march upon Erebor in vengeance of his fathers death. How many orcs will Try and avenge another dead orc? Most will just forget about the dead one. This gives me hope that Orcs, have some traits of good in them, even if it is small aspects.
|
|
|
DanielLB
Immortal
Apr 29 2014, 9:36am
Post #2 of 33
(773 views)
Shortcut
|
In the actual text of the The Lord of the Rings, he is only ever referred to as:
To the last battle at Fornost with the Witch-lord of Angmar they sent some bowmen to the aid of the king, or so they maintained, though no tales of Men record it.
The title "Witch-king" is only ever used in the Appendices:
The lord of that land was known as the Witch- king, but it was not known until later that he was indeed the chief of the Ringwraitns...
The "king" part is obvious. I can think of two explanations of "witch":
1. The root of the word is gender neutral. It is only recently that we associate witches with females. Just as we only associate wizards with males.
2. Bewitching and witchery are common throughout Tolkien's stories - do we interpret "witch" as a verb or a noun? - Is he a King of Bewitching/Witchery?
(3. Or, alternatively, he was in fact a she)
(This post was edited by DanielLB on Apr 29 2014, 9:39am)
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 29 2014, 2:12pm
Post #3 of 33
(705 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Historically, witches could be male or female.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
The exact concept of what a witch is varies by culture and religion. Christianity associates witches with Satan, demonism and with evil. However, in may Pagan cultures, witches were often persons of wisdom and knowledge, especially of healing lore.
In the case of the Witch-king, I suspect that he was a Numenorean sorceror who learned at the feet of Sauron. Whether or not he was a king before he came to rule Angmar I cannot say for certain, but he was a powerful lord in Numenor before its fall.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
|
|
|
Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Apr 29 2014, 6:32pm
Post #6 of 33
(637 views)
Shortcut
|
You already had 'Wizards' (Gandalf et al) so maybe it was meant to cast another light on the chief of the Ringwraiths? The only other synonymous name I can come up with is 'warlock', but Warlock-King doesn't have quite the same ring to it....
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
|
|
|
noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 29 2014, 7:40pm
Post #8 of 33
(675 views)
Shortcut
|
|
'Three Rings for the Elven Kings..' one of whom is the Lady Galadriel...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Suggests that either Tolkien wrote the poem before realising Lady G would have a ring & didn't see the inconsistency, or you can be a female King.
Not my original observation- blame Darkstone http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=735686#735686
I'm also remembering this quote from Queen Elizabeth I of England:
Must is not a word to be used to princes!
(To Robert Cecil when he said, in her final illness (March 1603), that she must go to bed.) So, a female prince too....
~~~~~~
"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
|
|
|
noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 29 2014, 7:41pm
Post #9 of 33
(640 views)
Shortcut
|
Nobody could remember who he was, hence "Which King?", but it got mis-translated at some point. //
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
~~~~~~
"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
|
|
|
noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 29 2014, 7:42pm
Post #10 of 33
(640 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I suppose a further possibility was that he (or she) was Lord/King ruling over many witches.... //
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
~~~~~~
"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
|
|
|
Bracegirdle
Valinor
Apr 29 2014, 9:14pm
Post #11 of 33
(634 views)
Shortcut
|
Suggests that either Tolkien wrote the poem before realising Lady G would have a ring & didn't see the inconsistency, or you can be a female King. Perhaps Celebrimbor (sole forger of The Three) had no one particular in mind when he made the Rings, and if he made up the poem a male (King) attribute might seem logical (sorry ladies). But then, do we know who (supposedly) made up the poem?
And a "female King" just doesn't seem to wash. I buy "female Queen".
>>>>THIS SPACE FOR HIRE<<<<
Contact Messrs. Grubb, Grubb, and Burrowes.
Hole #14, Bywater Pool Road
(This post was edited by Bracegirdle on Apr 29 2014, 9:16pm)
|
|
|
Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Apr 29 2014, 9:37pm
Post #12 of 33
(639 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I thought Sauron had made the Ring-spell
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
But I could see him plaigarising it! How like him!
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
|
|
|
BlackFox
Half-elven
Apr 29 2014, 9:47pm
Post #14 of 33
(624 views)
Shortcut
|
|
"The two-verse spell" here referres to...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
... the infamous "One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them".
"Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake." - Henry David Thoreau
(This post was edited by BlackFox on Apr 29 2014, 9:51pm)
|
|
|
Bracegirdle
Valinor
Apr 29 2014, 11:49pm
Post #15 of 33
(585 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I thought Sauron had made the Ring-spell
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
But, as BlackFox notes below Sauron coudn't have made up the entire poem as he wasn't aware of the Three.
Most likely he just made up the 'One Ring to Rule Them All' part. Eh? Maybe talking about the Seven and the Nine too?
|
|
|
Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Apr 30 2014, 12:38am
Post #16 of 33
(558 views)
Shortcut
|
I see it now that you say it! I hope there is a definitive answer in the HoME or somewhere else, that someone can point out, or maybe it is one more enigma.
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
|
|
|
Matthias132
The Shire
Apr 30 2014, 4:02am
Post #17 of 33
(613 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Perhaps Sauron's apprentice was a sorcerer
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I think the witch part comes from Tolkien being a philologist, and using the term in its proper manner.
Now, he very well could have been a sorcerer of some kind. Sauron was a shapeshifter, so it would not be hard to believe that he learned some things from Sauron, or that he attempted witchcraft.
I think he would be very capable of bewitching considering the Morgul blade was able to possibly change Frodo to a wraith.
Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger.Courage is found in unlikely places - J.R.R. Tolkien (Gildor)
|
|
|
noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 30 2014, 10:53am
Post #19 of 33
(558 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Come to think of it, which elven kings? (or, 'witch elven kings'- arrgh!)?
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I think that in the years described in LOTR the 3 elven rings are kept by
Galadriel
Elrond
Cirdan (and later Gandalf)
...none of whom are usually referred to as 'Kings' (King Elrond?' )
~~~~~~
"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
|
|
|
CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 30 2014, 3:52pm
Post #20 of 33
(530 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Sauron was a male chauvinist and never intended for women to have Rings of Power, or vote, or drive cars. //
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
|
|
|
noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 30 2014, 4:12pm
Post #21 of 33
(568 views)
Shortcut
|
|
New theory: the Witch King was actually 'The Which? King' because of his obsession about which Elven Kings had the 3 rings.//
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
~~~~~~
"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
|
|
|
CuriousG
Half-elven
Apr 30 2014, 5:48pm
Post #22 of 33
(513 views)
Shortcut
|
maybe all the Nazgul looked alike, and most of them started out as kings, so whenever someone mentioned that one of them was running the mafia shop in Angmar, Sauron would say, "Which king?". When your boss gives you a nickname, even by accident, it just sticks.
|
|
|
Brethil
Half-elven
Apr 30 2014, 5:51pm
Post #23 of 33
(519 views)
Shortcut
|
...would that also give us 'that king' and 'that OTHER king'?
Wow, we have a lot of the names nailed. Way to solve that mystery. Go us!
The Third TORn Amateur Symposium kicks off this Sunday, April 13th, in the Reading Room. Come and join us for Tolkien-inspired writings!
**CoH Rem. Just sayin' **
|
|
|
noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 30 2014, 7:16pm
Post #25 of 33
(492 views)
Shortcut
|
He got a Best Buy recommendation from Which? Evil Underling, and was so vain about that Consumers Association review that the name stuck…
~~~~~~
"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
|
|
|
|
|
1
