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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Petition for TABA to remain TABA...
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Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Apr 27 2014, 3:19pm

Post #51 of 76 (402 views)
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People didn't go to just see Frodo's journey either [In reply to] Can't Post

Many other characters were given more screen time by PJ in the LOTR movies than in the book (Arwen, Haldir, Gothmog, Legolas), some of whom didn't even resemble the characters from the book sometimes (Faramir). There was also an abundance of CGI, 'impossible' feats, big battles, etc.. But, moviegoers (even those pesky mainstream ones Laugh) 'got' that it was about Frodo anyway. They all 'get' that The Hobbit is about Bilbo too, but they also enjoy screen time for other characters they've come to care about. It doesn't mean any of us forget Bilbo, or stop cheering for him, just because he's not on-screen.

The Battle of Five Armies, and the lead-up to it is one of the main focuses of the latter part of the book, so I don't think it's realistic to hope or expect that it won't be the same in the movie. And, let's not forget that Tolkien de-emphasized his own hero by having him be unconscious during the climax of his hero's entire journey. I doubt PJ will do that to Bilbo in the movie.


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase





Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Apr 27 2014, 3:19pm

Post #52 of 76 (398 views)
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I disagree. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
AUJ and DoS ARE very different from each other. It seems to me that judging from the change of title the final film is far more likely to be even more extreme than DoS when it comes to comic-book action sequences and appearances from non-book canon characters, as opposed to character moments with Bilbo, Thorin, Gandalf, Balin, etc., of which there were plenty in AUJ but not in DoS. That's what PJ appears to like – so be it.

Whatever happened to the PJ of 13 years ago, who reiterated time and again that whenever the film-makers 'got stuck', they would always refer to Tolkien?



While you could be correct, the simple fact of the title change does not support your conclusion. The new title emphasises the climactic event of the film. No more, no less. There is no innate implication of more extreme, overblown action sequences beyond what we have already seen. Which is not to say that there won't be; but you can't tell just from that.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


SafeUnderHill
Lorien

Apr 27 2014, 3:31pm

Post #53 of 76 (396 views)
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Well said [In reply to] Can't Post

I completely agree with you. Some people seem to forget about this, and let their dissatisfaction with the films turn into rants about how PJ is purposefully diminishing Bilbo and coming up with crazy fan fiction. Whereas, he's just trying to give depth to other characters to create more satisfying story.

As for the action sequences, there's a few fun moments that some people really detest. But remember that these do not make up the majority of the films. You have some really great sequences like Mirkwood and the spiders, and plenty of dialogue (which I really enjoy, middle earth dialogue with great actors, authentic sets and atmospheric music).

Personally, I don't think there will be anymore of the playful action sequences in BOFA. Things are going to get emotional.


glor
Rohan

Apr 27 2014, 3:58pm

Post #54 of 76 (377 views)
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Well... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
AUJ and DoS ARE very different from each other. It seems to me that judging from the change of title the final film is far more likely to be even more extreme than DoS when it comes to comic-book action sequences and appearances from non-book canon characters, as opposed to character moments with Bilbo, Thorin, Gandalf, Balin, etc., of which there were plenty in AUJ but not in DoS. That's what PJ appears to like – so be it

This is how I felt after seeing TTT in 2002 and comparing it to FOTR, then the EE of TTT came out and fell in love with the film, the LOTR EEs are the definitive versions for me and the only film that stands up against them in the TE version is FOTR. The EEs are about the character moments that matter to Tolkien fans even if they disrupt the pacing of the film.

I know your feelings on DOS but your point about the title change of the third film I think is moot because, the third film is virtually in the can. If the title change from TABA to BOTFA had been made back in the earlier days of TH becoming a trilogy then I might be agreeing with your argument because a title can inform the process of storytelling/film making.

The difference between the two trilogies is simple as far as titles are concerned; Tolkien gave us the titles for LOTR, they were immutable, not even the then recent events in New York could not change the title of the Two Towers, the Hobbit doesn't have that, titles fixed by the author.

BOTFA reflects better what we already know is going to be in the third TH film, it also negates an issue with the TABA title; ROTK was lauded in all but one respect, too many endings (Ok not for book fans), TABA as a title for non-Tolkien fans suggests that the third Hobbit film will be nothing more than an extended multiple endings film. I did have someone say to me that There and Back Again made them think that the third TH film was probably just going to be 3 hours of people saying goodbye to each other and going home like the last 45 minutes of ROTK just longer!

The Battle of the Five Armies as a title has more weight and gravitas than There and Back Again espoecially for those not aware of what the third film holds, it does suggest action but it also suggests serious stakes and spectacle. However, a major battle in any film should have an element of spectacle especially a fantasy battle. The fact is regardless of title, I am expecting at least 1/3 of BOTFA to be well, BOFA and BOFA is a battle, a Tolkien battle with some very dramatic character moments that do require 'action' to be acheived.

I do concede that DOS although enjoyable for me, was lacking in character moments but the ones we got were gems, Kili's runstone moment showed his youth and vulnerability, the altercation between Thranduil and Thorin and the subsequent reaction of Balin in the cells was wonderful, as well as Luke Evans introduction as Bard and Smaug as a real character rather than a Godzilla like monster. DOS may not have had the quantity of character moments that AUJ had but it had the quality and it's the quality that counts. (Note; not much on TV at the moment and I have been watching some of the big action/comic book flicks of recent years on subscription movie channels and quite frankly, most of the character moments in these films are clunky and hamfisted, character moments are only worth film time if they are done well)

there are some key character moments in the third film, moments that should elevate BOTFA above and beyond any 'action flick' concerns but those moments won't be about quantity but quality, it's how they are handled by PJ that will matter not how many or what the film is called that will matter.




(This post was edited by glor on Apr 27 2014, 4:01pm)


Name
Rohan


Apr 27 2014, 4:56pm

Post #55 of 76 (357 views)
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I disagree [In reply to] Can't Post

I think DoS was the way it was because at that point in the book, it's basically "a bunch of somewhat random, short events leading up to Smaug."
This is not what BOFA/TABA will be like. BOFA has a larger scale, bigger picture feel to it. It's very political, and will have more of a flow to the story, something DoS just didn't/wasn't able to have. So yes, I think it will have a different feel, but more like AUJ than DoS.

How many Tolkien fans does it take to change a light bulb?

"Change? Oh my god, what do you mean change?! Never, never, never......"


Morthoron
Gondor


Apr 27 2014, 4:57pm

Post #56 of 76 (379 views)
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That would depend on your definition of a "satisfying story" [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I completely agree with you. Some people seem to forget about this, and let their dissatisfaction with the films turn into rants about how PJ is purposefully diminishing Bilbo and coming up with crazy fan fiction. Whereas, he's just trying to give depth to other characters to create more satisfying story.


If wholesale inventions, mindless chase scenes, minimization of the lead character and increased violence is what you prefer, then I suppose you are indeed satisfied. Obviously. a huge amount of moviegoers feel the same way. I would merely add that the "Macarena" or "Ice, Ice Baby" have sold far more albums than, say, Mozart's "Requiem in D minor" or Bach's "Fugue and Toccata in D Minor". It may be a matter of taste, or perhaps compositions in D minor are just not marketable. Wink

I, personally, do not see this vaunted "depth" you are referring to, or at least anything depicted in a fan-fiction sense that makes the movie tangibly better or more interesting than the original plot of the story. I felt the same regarding PJ's flights of fancy in the LotR trilogy. When he adhered to the original plot, and even when the dialogue from one canon character was used by another, it was far superior.

But I do fully understand the need to amplify The Battle of Five Armies for the film as opposed to the book's passing mention of the battle, in much the same way as I understood the need to edit out Tom Bombadil from FotR. My point is the overt and continued de-emphasis of the main character for other plot points (mostly imagined) that make for a crowded house in the way of the story. The name change from TABA to TBotFA being the most recent (again, in my opinion).

I suppose you use the derisive term "rants" in the same manner I would use "gushing" (or perhaps "disemboguing" would be more apt) for PJ apologists, wherein you've already canonized the director with effusive hosannas for whatever superfluous or erroneous additions he has crammed into the films.

You feel a certain way (however mystifying that is to me), and I am merely offering the opposing point of view (however strident that may seem to you).

Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.



(This post was edited by Altaira on Apr 27 2014, 6:07pm)


Hanzkaz
Rohan

Apr 27 2014, 5:59pm

Post #57 of 76 (350 views)
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At what point should the 'fan fiction' stop? [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think an attempt at an ultra-faithful adaptation would have worked too well, for various reasons.

___________________________________________________


From the makers of 'The Lord of the Rings' comes the sequel to Peter Jackson's Hobbit Trilogy -
'The War in the North, Part I : The Sword in the Tomb'.



(This post was edited by Ataahua on Apr 28 2014, 12:50am)


Morthoron
Gondor


Apr 27 2014, 6:04pm

Post #58 of 76 (343 views)
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When the films are finally finished... [In reply to] Can't Post

or the Tolkien Family Trust issues a cease and desist order. Whichever comes first.

Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.



Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Apr 27 2014, 6:16pm

Post #59 of 76 (348 views)
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And you've already condemned him [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
wherein you've already canonized the director with effusive hosannas for whatever superfluous or erroneous additions he has crammed into the films.


Isn't that just as bad? You already said there are parts of the movies you like. Many people may *not* have liked those parts. Neither POV is right or wrong. No need to be overly aggressive towards people with different opinions, or towards the film-makers. Accordingly, overly 'strident' comments have been edited out of your recent post and the whole sub-thread will be removed if everyone can't discuss things without slinging mud.



Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase





Morthoron
Gondor


Apr 27 2014, 6:45pm

Post #60 of 76 (322 views)
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I wasn't aware the mention of "snack chips" was overly strident, Altaira... [In reply to] Can't Post

but I did not take into account how people prefer such processed foods to a healthy diet. I suppose that could be a metaphor for moviegoers as well. Wink

All kidding aside, I think there is a gulf that goes beyond simple disagreements between those that enjoy the movies and those that don't. But I also get a sense of "piling on" on this site when someone, like the original poster, voices a differing opinion regarding aspects of the film. Hence the stridency.

If, as you say, "neither POV is right or wrong", then perhaps one should take into account the aggression of either side in equal parts. That, of course, is my opinion and my perception. I am sure there will be posters that will politely point out that I am wrong. Laugh

Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.



Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Apr 27 2014, 6:52pm

Post #61 of 76 (314 views)
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I don't see any 'pling on' [In reply to] Can't Post

When someone posts their opinion here, it's only natural that some people are going to agree and some are going to disagree. Hopefully anyone who starts a thread, as well as people who then read or participate in the thread, realize that.

I see both agreement and disagreement in this thread, just as I see agreement and disagreement in almost every thread that gets posted here. The fact that some people disagree with the OP doesn't constitute 'piling on' any more than agreement constitutes 100% affirmation. It's the style those things are done in that makes the difference.

Now you've made me hungry. Smile


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase





Morthoron
Gondor


Apr 27 2014, 6:56pm

Post #62 of 76 (305 views)
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I'll have my disagreement with a side of fries, please. \\ [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.



SafeUnderHill
Lorien

Apr 27 2014, 7:01pm

Post #63 of 76 (308 views)
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Wish I didn't have to write a subject for each reply [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
I completely agree with you. Some people seem to forget about this, and let their dissatisfaction with the films turn into rants about how PJ is purposefully diminishing Bilbo and coming up with crazy fan fiction. Whereas, he's just trying to give depth to other characters to create more satisfying story.


If wholesale inventions, mindless chase scenes, minimization of the lead character and increased violence is what you prefer, then I suppose you are indeed satisfied. Obviously. a huge amount of moviegoers feel the same way. I would merely add that the "Macarena" or "Ice, Ice Baby" have sold far more albums than, say, Mozart's "Requiem in D minor" or Bach's "Fugue and Toccata in D Minor". It may be a matter of taste, or perhaps compositions in D minor are just not marketable. Wink

I, personally, do not see this vaunted "depth" you are referring to, or at least anything depicted in a fan-fiction sense that makes the movie tangibly better or more interesting than the original plot of the story. I felt the same regarding PJ's flights of fancy in the LotR trilogy. When he adhered to the original plot, and even when the dialogue from one canon character was used by another, it was far superior.

But I do fully understand the need to amplify The Battle of Five Armies for the film as opposed to the book's passing mention of the battle, in much the same way as I understood the need to edit out Tom Bombadil from FotR. My point is the overt and continued de-emphasis of the main character for other plot points (mostly imagined) that make for a crowded house in the way of the story. The name change from TABA to TBotFA being the most recent (again, in my opinion).

I suppose you use the derisive term "rants" in the same manner I would use "gushing" (or perhaps "disemboguing" would be more apt) for PJ apologists, wherein you've already canonized the director with effusive hosannas for whatever superfluous or erroneous additions he has crammed into the films.

You feel a certain way (however mystifying that is to me), and I am merely offering the opposing point of view (however strident that may seem to you).


I tend to disagree with this idea of minimising the main story. What he's trying to attempt is to flesh out more minor characters (such as Bard, giving the Woodland Realm more of a plot with Legolas and Tauriel). I don't think he is specifically disliking Bilbo and cutting him out.

It seems a there are book fans who really don't like the changes, and understandably so. But for many audiences (and general movie critics), they feel characters like Tauriel and the expanded Bard really do add to the film. Anyway, I don't mind to disagree. My point was mainly to explain my annoyance to people who slag of PJ and personally attack him without being constructive or explaining themselves. The whole 'comic book' argument is greatly exaggerated IMO, seeing as little of the screen time features these things, you may not like it but I don't see how it ruins the whole film.


Noria
Rohan

Apr 27 2014, 8:08pm

Post #64 of 76 (289 views)
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Perhaps the “piling on” effect is just the result of the majority expressing their individual opinions. [In reply to] Can't Post

If most of the people posting on this site like The Hobbit movies, naturally most of the responses to a post criticizing them are going to disagree with that post. I’m sure there are other sites where the opposite occurs. In fact after AUJ was released I thought this site was becoming one of those until I realized that it was just a very few people posting a lot.

Also naturally, those who dislike the movies are dealing with disappointment, if not outright anger and disgust, compared to those of us who are, for the most part, happy with them. Negative feelings versus positive ones.

If there’s a conspiracy in which the members who like The Hobbit films contact one another and say “So-and-So is dissing the movies. Let’s get them!”, no one has mentioned it to me.Wink


(This post was edited by Noria on Apr 27 2014, 8:09pm)


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Apr 28 2014, 1:12am

Post #65 of 76 (286 views)
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Sometimes we forget what it was like before we knew everything. [In reply to] Can't Post

I've seen this over and over: people want to introduce a new fan to something and they end up overloading them and over-instructing them to like all the details that they themselves discovered on their own over time (years, often). And when we get really far in, it's hard to remember that the fun is in the journey and allow others make their own discoveries. What does that have to do with this discussion? Well, I think the fan love for the name There and Back Again is a perfect example of this. Think - if you didn't know the story, how interesting would that sound? Be honest now. I'm not sure a book or movie named "There and Back Again" would interest me at all. "So...somebody goes somewhere unnamed, and then comes back. Um...yay, I guess?"

Really, the fun of the title is in Bilbo's personality and the incredible understatement of it all. He goes on an adventure of thousands of miles, encountering trolls, orcs, wargs, spiders, Elves, and Men, he trades riddles with a strange creature and finds and magic ring, he has conversations with a dragon, he survives a massive battle, and comes home as an Elf-friend, a legend, and in company with a wizard (and with a little treasure too) and he writes a book about this epic year of his life and calls it....There and Back Again. It's so ridiculously hobbity and such an incredible downplaying of the truth that we just adore it.....afterwards. It means nothing beforehand. And this is the crux, I feel, of why the filmmakers chose to change the name. They're being practical about who knows what and the presentation of this movie is important. The non-readers aren't in on the "joke" of the title and won't be until they've seen/read the story. But you don't want to have to fight the name of a movie to get people to see it. This happens sometimes - just the other day I was trying to explain to this guy why he needed to see The Princess Bride. He'd gotten the idea, from the title and the fact that the others who had recommended it to him were all female, that it was some sort of romantic chick flick. And it occurred to me that quite possibly that was part of the problem with promoting it on its first release, when it didn't do that well. The name got in the way. It's great after you've seen it, not so much before. That's the trap they're avoiding here.

Silverlode

"Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dűm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."



Name
Rohan


Apr 28 2014, 1:23am

Post #66 of 76 (248 views)
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Brilliant post! [In reply to] Can't Post

 

How many Tolkien fans does it take to change a light bulb?

"Change? Oh my god, what do you mean change?! Never, never, never......"


Noria
Rohan

Apr 28 2014, 1:26am

Post #67 of 76 (257 views)
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You're completely right, Silverlode [In reply to] Can't Post

There and Back Again carries a wealth of meaning and sentiment for all of us fans of the book.
To those who have never read The Hobbit and even some of those who read it once as children, the name likely has no nostalgic value and means nothing.


Starling
Half-elven


Apr 28 2014, 1:50am

Post #68 of 76 (254 views)
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The Princess Bride [In reply to] Can't Post

I avoided seeing that for years precisely because of the film's name.
I assumed it would be a *kissing movie*. Laugh
It was a man who recommended it to me!


Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor


Apr 28 2014, 2:59am

Post #69 of 76 (223 views)
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Well said! / / [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Fan of both books and movies. Oh, and it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.

Thranduil Appreciation: I, II, III



Eruvandi
Tol Eressea


Apr 28 2014, 3:29am

Post #70 of 76 (218 views)
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Very true. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

"But there’s empty cross, there’s an empty tomb
Fire and wind now sweeping in this tiny upper room
There’s a hungry world, there’s a risen King
Unlock the doors, what reason more could we ever need?
So sing with me, I dare you to
Because there’s an empty cross; there’s an empty tomb"
~Empty (Disciples)-sung by Dan Haseltine and Matt Hammitt



CathrineB
Rohan


Apr 28 2014, 7:52am

Post #71 of 76 (203 views)
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Nah [In reply to] Can't Post

I do prefer "There and Back Again" as well, but sometimes not everything is worth getting worked up over. "The Battle of the Five Armies" fits the movie and sure it can be a marketing move. Marketing these movies are important in the first place so again I don't think it's a big deal. It's a title. There's so much else and worse that can go wrong.

Also to that one poster, there's no need to bring up "Some will excuse everything PJ do". Excuse me? Some just don't think there's a point to worry so much about everything. I'm not saying OP does, but in general there's a lot of worry. Don't bring up comments like that and say liking the title is an excuse to kiss somone's .. behind.


patrickk
Rohan

Apr 28 2014, 9:54am

Post #72 of 76 (196 views)
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I think that TABA... [In reply to] Can't Post

...doesn't wash with a particular market. When currency changes are taken into account (US$ appreciation) the drop from AUJ to DOS can be explained entirely by the drop in the North American market (maybe they did not know what 'Desolation' meant or 'Smaug' for that matter). While the north American market is a small market 25-30% depending on which movie we are talking about, it is not insignficant so a title that meant something to the North American market may have been in play here.


Eruvandi
Tol Eressea


Apr 28 2014, 4:11pm

Post #73 of 76 (178 views)
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Friendly tip on subject lines [In reply to] Can't Post

You could just do a "..." in the subject line if that's easier for you. I've done that myself when I can't or don't want to think of a subject and it works fine.Angelic

I agree with your post, btw.Smile

"But there’s empty cross, there’s an empty tomb
Fire and wind now sweeping in this tiny upper room
There’s a hungry world, there’s a risen King
Unlock the doors, what reason more could we ever need?
So sing with me, I dare you to
Because there’s an empty cross; there’s an empty tomb"
~Empty (Disciples)-sung by Dan Haseltine and Matt Hammitt



Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Apr 28 2014, 6:33pm

Post #74 of 76 (153 views)
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Just make sure whatever it is [In reply to] Can't Post

is long enough to be easily clicked on, because that's how those reading in Threaded mode can access your post. A single period, or even two, can be difficult to click on easily, and is pretty irritating for those who read the boards that way.

Threaded mode is the reason that subject lines are required, by the way. And many who read that way are more likely to read posts with interesting subject lines. As you see, I usually just put the first part of my reply there, then carry on in the main message box. Smile

Silverlode

"Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dűm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."



Nolane
Bree

Apr 29 2014, 6:37pm

Post #75 of 76 (105 views)
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I agree with this 100 percent [In reply to] Can't Post

The new title is better. Learn to deal with it if you don't like it. A petition is not going to get the title changed back.

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