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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
HUGE Announcement from Peter Jackson's facebook page TITLE CHANGE AND DOS EE
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Apr 25 2014, 10:56pm

Post #301 of 337 (3117 views)
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I'm not really all that concerned about the title change... [In reply to] Can't Post

...but I do hope that the return journey is not given short shrift just so we can see more action (although I'm completely expecting that to be the case). And as I've made known on more than one occasion, I'm concerned that Jackson might overplay the scale of the Battle of Five Armies itself just because it's his last hurrah in Middle-earth. The Battle of Five Armies was not the biggest battle of the Third Age, and it should not be portrayed as such.


(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Apr 25 2014, 11:00pm)


Kendalf
Rohan


Apr 25 2014, 11:32pm

Post #302 of 337 (3105 views)
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I wouldn't hold out much hope on either front... [In reply to] Can't Post

"I do hope that the return journey is not given short shrift just so we can see more action (although I'm completely expecting that to be the case)."

Well, yes. But then such a choice would be entirely understandable, wouldn't it, considering the general reaction to RotK's "multiple" endings and the fact that, well, movies just aren't structured with such enormous, elongated codas.

"And as I've made known on more than one occasion, I'm concerned that Jackson might overplay the scale of the Battle of Five Armies itself just because it's his last hurrah in Middle-earth. The Battle of Five Armies was not the biggest battle of the Third Age, and it should not be portrayed as such."

What with 3D, 4K, 48fps, IMAX, a decade of accolades and limitless funds behind him, you can bet your bottom dollar that the BoFA is going to blow everything else out of water. Or at least try to...

So, yes, I (and many others, I suspect) share your concerns Unsure


"I have walked there sometimes, beyond the forest and up into the night. I have seen the world fall away and the white light of forever fill the air."


(This post was edited by Kendalf on Apr 25 2014, 11:34pm)


Lio
Lorien


Apr 25 2014, 11:36pm

Post #303 of 337 (3070 views)
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Thanks, those were a great read! [In reply to] Can't Post

Looks like those early scripts really are locked away in a vault somewhere. Laugh

Dwalin Balin Kili Fili Dori Nori Ori Oin Gloin Bifur Bofur Bombur Thorin

Orcs are mammals!

"Don't laugh at the Dwarves because they will mess you up." — Dean O'Gorman (Fili)

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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Apr 25 2014, 11:43pm

Post #304 of 337 (3082 views)
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As to the second point about the scale of the battle... [In reply to] Can't Post

...I think Jackson could make the battle into a more dazzling display than anything we've seen thus far, and still stay close to the true scale of the battle. But will he? Or will he put 300,000 Orcs in this battle just so he can top the 200,000 present in his version of the Battle of Pelennor? If he wants these 6 films to be viewed as one single "hexology", then I think it would be a huge mistake to turn the Bo5A into the biggest battle of the series.


Name
Rohan


Apr 25 2014, 11:45pm

Post #305 of 337 (3084 views)
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It's going to be spectacular [In reply to] Can't Post

But I doubt Jackson will try to make it bigger than Pelennor Fields. And to be honest, I don't think the area around Erebor is large enough to fit an absolutely huge mass of people.

How many Tolkien fans does it take to change a light bulb?

"Change? Oh my god, what do you mean change?! Never, never, never......"


Kendalf
Rohan


Apr 25 2014, 11:57pm

Post #306 of 337 (3090 views)
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Six films, yes... But not chronologically... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
If he wants these 6 films to be viewed as one single "hexology", then I think it would be a huge mistake to turn the Bo5A into the biggest battle of the series.


I think he does want these films to be viewed as a unified hexalogy but I don't think they'll ever be best viewed AUJ to RotK. In all sorts of ways it makes much more sense to watch LotR first. This new trilogy is, by default, a prequel trilogy and has therefore been written and filmed as such. It's not pretending in any way to pre-date the originals; it even depends on familiarity with them in many instances.

So, yes, he does want all six films to be viewed as a unified narrative, but I'm pretty much convinced that he views BotFA as the sixth film, not RotK,,,

"I have walked there sometimes, beyond the forest and up into the night. I have seen the world fall away and the white light of forever fill the air."


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Apr 26 2014, 12:14am

Post #307 of 337 (3088 views)
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Yes, due to the "flashback" set-up after the Bilbo/Frodo stuff... [In reply to] Can't Post

...but that doesn't really change the fact this trilogy is more of a set-up for LotR than the "main event". We know Sauron is not at full-strength here, it's already been stated as such by Gandalf. So it doesn't make sense for his forces to be stronger now than they are when he IS at full-strength and decides to try and topple Minas Tirith.


Morthoron
Gondor


Apr 26 2014, 1:33am

Post #308 of 337 (3092 views)
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Perhaps he should rename it "Raiders of the Lost Arkenstone"... [In reply to] Can't Post

since it bears less and less resemblance to Tolkien, and more and more like any other generic big-budget Hollywood epic. Perhaps Thor or another Marvel character will be used in place of the eagles as the deus ex machina. Cross-advertising and product placement are big ticket items in films these days. Wink

Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.



Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Apr 26 2014, 2:17am

Post #309 of 337 (3026 views)
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That last one, "If they use it" is the big if. [In reply to] Can't Post

I still believe the title change signals a shift in the focus of this final movie of the three. The Hobbit is not a story about war. If this were not the case Tolkien would have kept his Hobbit conscious to participate. The Battle of Five Armies isn't even a chapter in the book. KS

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
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Eowyn of Penns Woods
Valinor


Apr 26 2014, 4:36am

Post #310 of 337 (3030 views)
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*nods and whispers* [In reply to] Can't Post

With or without popcorn!

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lurtz2010
Rohan

Apr 26 2014, 6:19am

Post #311 of 337 (3011 views)
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people saying the return journey should be the main focus are full of it [In reply to] Can't Post

yeah Bilbo heads back home and discovers he's a new man since he left the Shire. They should dedicate the whole second half of the movie to all that...


Kendalf
Rohan


Apr 26 2014, 7:41am

Post #312 of 337 (2983 views)
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It can be greater without being greater ;-) [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
that doesn't really change the fact this trilogy is more of a set-up for LotR than the "main event"...it doesn't make sense for his forces to be stronger now than they are when he IS at full-strength and decides to try and topple Minas Tirith.


True. I suppose what I'm expecting is that the BotFA will be more ambitious, more complex, more sprawling, more episodic, more varied, more spectacular more "eye-candy" than the Pelennor Fields (and perhaps even longer) rather than larger...

That's what I mean by Jackson trying to "blow all his previous battles out of the water". Am I making sense?

"I have walked there sometimes, beyond the forest and up into the night. I have seen the world fall away and the white light of forever fill the air."


Elciryamo
Rivendell

Apr 26 2014, 7:58am

Post #313 of 337 (2975 views)
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Well, I followed you :) [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
that doesn't really change the fact this trilogy is more of a set-up for LotR than the "main event"...it doesn't make sense for his forces to be stronger now than they are when he IS at full-strength and decides to try and topple Minas Tirith.


True. I suppose what I'm expecting is that the BotFA will be more ambitious, more complex, more sprawling, more episodic, more varied, more spectacular more "eye-candy" than the Pelennor Fields (and perhaps even longer) rather than larger...

That's what I mean by Jackson trying to "blow all his previous battles out of the water". Am I making sense?


Jackson can try and out do himself all he wants. Personally, I see Battle of Five Armies showing a ramp up of events, elevating the stakes higher and higher until the titular event. If you have Smaug defeated and then there is another, greater threat, and still another, then you can build on those threats towards a larger climatic ending.

BO5A is a more fitting title than TABA, as they really will be eliminating threats until a greater one is shown. Finally, at the end, we will see evil defeated for a time, but foreshadowing the events in LOTR.

Does Pelennor Fields take away from Helms Deep or the Black Gate? Does the personal struggle of Aragorn diminish because of Frodo and Sam? No, the events compliment and build upon one another towards a grander ending where all parties are involved.

DoS actually did a good job of setting up stakes, and I think that will continue throughout BO5A.


Bumblingidiot
Rohan

Apr 26 2014, 4:32pm

Post #314 of 337 (2929 views)
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Lurtz2010, you were replying to me, so I should ask [In reply to] Can't Post

were you deliberately misrepresenting people here, or was it a genuine lack of comprehension? And what is it exactly that people are full of - could you be more specific?

"Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear."


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Apr 26 2014, 5:03pm

Post #315 of 337 (2902 views)
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the main event in [In reply to] Can't Post

"The Lord of the Rings", the ring and Sauron are the main event in that trilogy. I want BOT5A to be more epic than anything in LOTR's just because its the last middle-earth film! Wink


The flames of war are upon you..

(This post was edited by MouthofSauron on Apr 26 2014, 5:03pm)


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Apr 26 2014, 5:36pm

Post #316 of 337 (2897 views)
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Yes, that makes sense... [In reply to] Can't Post

...and I wouldn't have a problem with the battle being more of an "eye-candy" type of battle. I expect that the whole eagles/bats battle in the skies (if it's still being included) will add a whole new dynamic to the battle, and will allow for plenty of dazzling display. And I'm sure the Mirkwood elves are going to be defying the laws of gravity all over the place as well...


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Apr 26 2014, 5:43pm

Post #317 of 337 (2888 views)
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It can be "more epic"... [In reply to] Can't Post

...without being bigger in scale.

And the two trilogies are meant to be linked into one large narrative. Wink


NecromancerRising
Gondor


Apr 26 2014, 5:51pm

Post #318 of 337 (2893 views)
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Sure,why not. [In reply to] Can't Post

If i can accept that the Elves live forever and some or them have powerful magic abilities,i can easily accept one race of Elves like the Mirkwood ones to defy gravity.Of course,that happened in THEIR own territory,where they have lived for hundreds of years.Let's see if the same will happen in a completely unknown ground. Smile

"Obsession and narrow-mindness is the trend of the 2000's and synonyms to many Tolkien fanatics"


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Apr 26 2014, 9:14pm

Post #319 of 337 (2852 views)
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LOL [In reply to] Can't Post

its called The Battle of the Five Armies! I think it should be just as epic if not more than Helm's Deep or pelennor fields.


The flames of war are upon you..


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Apr 26 2014, 9:32pm

Post #320 of 337 (2874 views)
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What is your point? [In reply to] Can't Post

So what if it's called "The Battle of Five Armies"? Most of the armies were small, except for the Goblin army. The Dwarves numbered around 500, a Elves a few thousand, and the Men of Lake-town much less than either. There were probably more Rohirrim at Pelennor than there were Dwarves, Elves, and Men combined at the Bo5A. Here is an excellent statistical analysis about the numbers at the Bo5A done by someone. It's not definitive by any means, but it gives us a rough idea based on Tolkien's descriptions of the forces.

And if you've read the books, then you know that Pelennor contained at least 7-8 armies - Gondorians, Rohirrim, Knights of Dol Amroth, Easterlings, Haradrim, Troll-men of Far Harad, Variags, and the Orcs/Trolls/Nazgul from Mordor and Minas Morgul.

So really, nothing to "LOL" about Wink


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Apr 26 2014, 9:47pm

Post #321 of 337 (2836 views)
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small armies? [In reply to] Can't Post

ok even if they are small armies…its still FIVE plus eagles and a giant bear. If the title is BO5A you know its not going to be a small battle, i mean come on now..


The flames of war are upon you..


lurtz2010
Rohan

Apr 26 2014, 9:56pm

Post #322 of 337 (2849 views)
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sorry i was referring to that message above [In reply to] Can't Post

 
i just meant all that back again/self discovery stuff is a given and the title change doesnt mean it wont be focused on. its not like the movie will end at erebor after thorins funeral.


(This post was edited by Silverlode on Apr 26 2014, 11:11pm)


Elessar
Valinor


Apr 26 2014, 10:36pm

Post #323 of 337 (2814 views)
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I plan too [In reply to] Can't Post

watch all six EE once they're all out from AUJ to ROTK. It makes sense and how I personally view they should be watched. I look at it the same way I do when I read The Hobbit though The Lord of the Rings. I am quite excited myself to sit down next year and watch all of them. Cool



Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Apr 27 2014, 2:36pm

Post #324 of 337 (2789 views)
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Sorry, here is the link... [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.councilofelrond.com/...analysis-by-ilandir/


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 27 2014, 3:33pm

Post #325 of 337 (2783 views)
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Yes. [In reply to] Can't Post

The number of the armies of the Free Peoples probaby numbered at least 2000:
- Elves: 1000+ spearmen with at least several companies of archers (say a company = 20 Elves).
- Dwarves: 500+ warriors and Thorin's 13.
- Men: However many fighters remained after Smaug's attack; say 200 to 300.
- The Eagles were numerous; so dozens at least.

The Orcs and their alllies comprised a vast host that greatly outnumbered their opponents. Say at least 5000 and as many as 10,000, not even counting the bats.

So we are looking at a conflict at about the scale of Helm's Deep.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 27 2014, 3:35pm)

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