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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
HUGE Announcement from Peter Jackson's facebook page TITLE CHANGE AND DOS EE
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DanielLB
Immortal


Apr 25 2014, 7:12am

Post #251 of 337 (3269 views)
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I wonder ... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Oh well, truth be told I much prefer the new title BUT nothing will save these films...nothing. Horrible cgi infested garbage!

Though you don't think so because of our "love everything pj does bubble" these films will be treated exactly as the sw prequels -they will be forgotten and mocked by all but a few die hards.


Excluding the obvious difference in tone between the books, how much of the difference we see between the two film trilogies is down to the fact we have all aged 10+ years between them. The consensus is (or at least appears to be) that the LOTR trilogy is superior (in most aspects) compared to the new Hobbit trilogy. Yet, looking back, the LOTR films are full of dodgy CGI (Watcher in the Water, Treebeard, Fangorn, Saruman falling to his death), ridiculous stunts (mainly involving an Oliphaunt), iffy humour (Gimli ...), long action sequences, little sense of danger when fighting mass groups of orcs, poor characterizations (Faramir, Denthor, Legolas, Gimli) and sacrilegious changes from canon (Arwen-Aragorn-Eowyn, Glorfindel, Frodo sending Sam home) .

Is there *really* any difference between the two trilogies?

Could it just be that we've all aged a bit, and what we're looking for in a film adaptation has also changed? Has our maturity changed how we visualise, expect and understand the characters and places of Middle-earth? Perhaps we were all a little more open to LOTR because this will the first proper attempt at an adaptation. 10 years later, perhaps we all grew optimistic of something that better represents the book but also uses the same techniques that we liked in the LOTR trilogy? Are we too fond of the old trilogy, and so it's easier to dismiss the new trilogy?

Ultimately, would our 10-year-younger self love The Hobbit movie trilogy just as much as The Lord of the Rings movie trilogy?

(Note, this isn't necessarily my actual opinion. I'm just making some suggestions. "We" doesn't refer to anyone or any group in particular.)



Arannir
Valinor


Apr 25 2014, 7:40am

Post #252 of 337 (3242 views)
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I want to highlight this. [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
In parts Hobbit actually does emanate heart and emotion, more so than the book, but the source material just doesn't offer that much in that regard, at least not until the end.

I feel like sometimes people are seeing the book through rose colored glasses.




I am a great Tolkien devotee - but all those complaining that it is impossible to ciritisize PJ on this board should read up what some people have to listen to who dare to complain about the book or just question a detail of it.

No, one does not have to be a action-flick loving fankiddy who has no sense for true art to be critical of a lot in Tolkien's works. If some people would look beyond the borders of the Fan-Shire once in a while they would see that a lot of very intelligent people and critics have not that much love for Tolkien. And not all this criticism can be dismantled by saying "They did not get it" as it is often used on boards like this to react to criticism concerning the Professor.



“All good stories deserve embellishment."

Praise is subjective. And so is criticism.

"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at."

(This post was edited by Arannir on Apr 25 2014, 7:51am)


Arannir
Valinor


Apr 25 2014, 7:46am

Post #253 of 337 (3241 views)
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I do not want to comment... [In reply to] Can't Post

... on whether your post or the reactions to it where fine, too harsh or whatnot.

But I have to add here that I have read this several times now. And it is true - some people here have a questionable way in reacting to other people's opinions.

But what is also true is two things. 1) It is really a minority who does this. 2) It goes both ways... people defending or liking certain aspects of the movies have repeatedly been called fanboys, apologists, un-cultured kids, etc.

People of both colors hurt the atmosphere and the level of discussion on TORN imho.


“All good stories deserve embellishment."

Praise is subjective. And so is criticism.

"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at."


Glorfindela
Valinor


Apr 25 2014, 10:22am

Post #254 of 337 (3216 views)
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DanielB: [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think it is just that we have 'aged a bit'. I do think that DoS rather lost it with all the OTT and what I feel is badly done comic-book action scenes, despite the wonderful visuals, notably Smaug and some of the locations. For me DoS is completely different in style from the LotR trilogy, despite the attempts to shovel in links to that trilogy – which I feel have created the opposite effect to that intended.

DoS does not have a 'heart', or a 'Tolkien feel' to it (unlike AUJ, despite its many deviations from the book, PJ 'fun' moments, etc.).

For me this is all the more a pity because TH had everything going for it at the start – most of all a great cast for the main characters that was on the whole better than that for LotR, e.g. Martin Freeman, Richard Armitage, Ian McKellen and Ken Stott. That cast has been wasted in DoS, which contains few and all too brief character moments.

I realize that The Hobbit book is not particularly filmable, except as a children's film, but if the film-makers wanted to make changes to attract an adult audience, why not give DoS more of a LotR 'feel', as AUJ did (perhaps minus the 'gross' moments), and include character expansion for all the main canon characters, instead of creating pointless elf-action scenes that add nothing meaningful to the film?

Going down the route of all-action DoS blockbuster, presumably to compete with Marvel all-action blockbusters and the like, has been a mistake in my view.


(This post was edited by Glorfindela on Apr 25 2014, 10:32am)


BlackFox
Half-elven


Apr 25 2014, 10:47am

Post #255 of 337 (3208 views)
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Poll: TABA or BOFA? [In reply to] Can't Post

http://newboards.theonering.net/...;;page=unread#unread


"Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake." - Henry David Thoreau

(This post was edited by BlackFox on Apr 25 2014, 10:51am)


Kendalf
Rohan


Apr 25 2014, 10:59am

Post #256 of 337 (3171 views)
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I don't buy the "we've matured" argument [In reply to] Can't Post

"how much of the difference we see between the two film trilogies is down to the fact we have all aged 10+ years between them.
Is there *really* any difference between the two trilogies?
Could it just be that we've all aged a bit, and what we're looking for in a film adaptation has also changed?

Ultimately, would our 10-year-younger self love The Hobbit movie trilogy just as much as The Lord of the Rings movie trilogy?"


I think there may be some weight to this argument if you're referring to people who were 15 when they saw the original trilogy but, from what I can glean from the odd reference here and there, many of us were already adults when we saw them and our tastes therefore haven't changed anywhere near as greatly (if at all) in the intervening period.

It's also a theory that curiously presumes Jackson hasn't aged a day. If we've all matured in what we're expecting from an adaptation of Tolkien, why hasn't he?

Nope, I think the truth is simply that many of us regard this current trilogy as inferior because it is. It is far more prone to ludicrous action, infantile humour, questionable design choices, disregard for the text etc than the original (yes, flawed) trilogy ever was.

(PS As an aside and on-topic Crazy , I think BotFA is a far better title than TaBA which was, after all, both inappropriate and, yes, a little dull)




"I have walked there sometimes, beyond the forest and up into the night. I have seen the world fall away and the white light of forever fill the air."


(This post was edited by Kendalf on Apr 25 2014, 11:09am)


DanielLB
Immortal


Apr 25 2014, 11:29am

Post #257 of 337 (3178 views)
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Obviously ... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Nope, I think the truth is simply that many of us regard this current trilogy as inferior because it is. It is far more prone to ludicrous action, infantile humour, questionable design choices, disregard for the text etc than the original (yes, flawed) trilogy ever was.


Opinions are opinions, and some people do find this trilogy less satisfying than the original, regardless. I should have made a note of that above. Just to make it clear, I'm not suggesting we *should all* like the movies.


Quote
I think there may be some weight to this argument if you're referring to people who were 15 when they saw the original trilogy but, from what I can glean from the odd reference here and there, many of us were already adults when we saw them and our tastes therefore haven't changed anywhere near as greatly (if at all) in the intervening period.


I don't buy this though, I'm afraid. Regardless of how old you are, your opinion changes on a daily basis. You might already have been "mature" when the LOTR trilogy was released, but it doesn't mean your opinion stops maturing once you reach adulthood. Otherwise, you wouldn't go off food, films, music, people, politics or trends. Regardless of how old you are, your opinion of the LOTR films has greatly changed over the 10 years - you might like it less or more to varying degrees - it hasn't remained constant since 2003. Just like your opinion of The Hobbit trilogy will be different to how it is in 2024. 10 years is an awful long time. If you've read the books since you'll understand the characters more. If you've watched the films since you might like them more. Opinions are in flux, there not solid and they do not stay the same.

So, would your 10-year-younger self love The Hobbit movie trilogy just as much as The Lord of the Rings movie trilogy? Or, alternatively, what will your 10-year-older self think of The Hobbit movie trilogy?



(This post was edited by DanielLB on Apr 25 2014, 11:37am)


Escapist
Gondor


Apr 25 2014, 11:58am

Post #258 of 337 (3119 views)
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The maturity thing [In reply to] Can't Post

is a thing that I have perceived most prominently among people who were teenagers when LotR movies came out and who then read the books after.

I don't think it explains all the differences of opinions, though, just maybe some. I think one of the biggest sources of differences of opinion comes from the differences in the source material. For decades before PJ's movies, the Tolkien fanbase differed a bit by preference for The Hobbit, LotR, or the Silmarillion. It has never really been the case that all fans of one story were equally fans of the other two.

If all the world's a stage then who's writing the script?


Elessar
Valinor


Apr 25 2014, 12:17pm

Post #259 of 337 (3120 views)
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I don't know about that [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
IDoS does not have a 'heart', or a 'Tolkien feel' to it (unlike AUJ, despite its many deviations from the book, PJ 'fun' moments, etc.)./reply]

I think that is highly off the mark. Obviously ones mileage may vary but IMO it has both of those in plenty.



Kendalf
Rohan


Apr 25 2014, 12:18pm

Post #260 of 337 (3126 views)
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Hmm, I think we change more rapidly when we're young... [In reply to] Can't Post

"Regardless of how old you are, your opinion changes on a daily basis. You might already have been "mature" when the LOTR trilogy was released, but it doesn't mean your opinion stops maturing once you reach adulthood...
Regardless of how old you are, your opinion of the LOTR films has greatly changed over the 10 years"


No, I don't believe it has, to be perfectly honest Smile I was in my late 20s when I saw the first trilogy in cinemas and, yes, you're right, my opinion of them (both in their particulars and in the whole) has not remained entirely ossified over the intervening decade (for example, I suspect I'm a little more irked by Gimli tip-toeing over the bones now than I was back then) but neither has it changed significantly. What I feel now for the trilogy is pretty much what I felt then and I think that's at least partly down to the age at which I first saw them.

Yep, I think "how old you are" is important when considering changing opinions. I'm afraid you're not going to convince me that our attitudes, proclivities and tastes change at just as rapid a rate in our sixties, say, as they do in our teens and twenties. That's just human nature.

"I have walked there sometimes, beyond the forest and up into the night. I have seen the world fall away and the white light of forever fill the air."


Glorfindela
Valinor


Apr 25 2014, 12:25pm

Post #261 of 337 (3108 views)
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But… [In reply to] Can't Post

It isn't 'highly of the mark' for me. I cannot help that I (and others I know) think like this. It is to do with gut reaction. I suppose it all depends on one's tolerance levels and personal preferences – I am certainly hoping the next film will improve for me.


In Reply To
I think that is highly off the mark. Obviously ones mileage may vary but IMO it has both of those in plenty.



Elessar
Valinor


Apr 25 2014, 12:25pm

Post #262 of 337 (3119 views)
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Maturity [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I think there may be some weight to this argument if you're referring to people who were 15 when they saw the original trilogy but, from what I can glean from the odd reference here and there, many of us were already adults when we saw them and our tastes therefore haven't changed anywhere near as greatly (if at all) in the intervening period.


Come on now. You don't think even adults opinion on things change as they get older? I was 21 when FOTR came out and 23 when the ROTK came out. I can assure you I am not the same person as I was then. If someone is then that is really beyond sad they have not grown as a person at all. I will say there are things over the last ten years in my readings of the books and watching of the movies that I like more now than I did at the start as well as things I like less now. I will highly disagree that people haven't changed much as a whole in how they feel in 10 years. We also tend to develop more rose colored glasses for things we're fond of as time passes. Faults become less of an issue and the movie we play in our mind has a that tint to it. The same will happen with The Hobbit films for lots of folks. Some will stay stuck in their hate and I find that a sad thing.


In Reply To
Nope, I think the truth is simply that many of us regard this current trilogy as inferior because it is. It is far more prone to ludicrous action, infantile humour, questionable design choices, disregard for the text etc than the original (yes, flawed) trilogy ever was.


I think it depends on how you use the term many. I agree its not as good but then again it was never going to be. Even with material from the appendices it was never going to be. As much as I love The Hobbit and as great a book/work as it is the book is a lesser work than The Lord of the Rings IMO.

So I agree with you in a sense of what I said but it is not a lesser Trilogy just because things are different.



*



Elessar
Valinor


Apr 25 2014, 12:28pm

Post #263 of 337 (3104 views)
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That's not what you said though [In reply to] Can't Post

Read the quoted part again. You stated it as if it was fact. You left out an "I" or IMO stating that you felt that way and because of that it reads as fact. I know the post is your opinion without reading the I but as someone who feels differently it creates a point of me going, "wait a mintue"!

In the end I understand people feel different and they are more than welcome to do so. I feel these two movies so far have tones of emotion, heart, and plenty of Tolkien. I wouldn't say Tolerance levels but personal preferences for sure.



Kendalf
Rohan


Apr 25 2014, 12:34pm

Post #264 of 337 (3113 views)
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Yep [In reply to] Can't Post

"The maturity thing is a thing that I have perceived most prominently among people who were teenagers...
(But) I don't think it explains all the differences of opinions...
I think one of the biggest sources of differences of opinion comes from the differences in the source material...
It has never really been the case that all fans of one story were equally fans of the other two."

Can't disagree, Escapist Smile

"I have walked there sometimes, beyond the forest and up into the night. I have seen the world fall away and the white light of forever fill the air."


(This post was edited by Kendalf on Apr 25 2014, 12:47pm)


KW
Rivendell

Apr 25 2014, 12:34pm

Post #265 of 337 (3104 views)
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"Mods up," as some are accustomed to say! [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
It's also a theory that curiously presumes Jackson hasn't aged a day. If we've all matured in what we're expecting from an adaptation of Tolkien, why hasn't he?




Glorfindela
Valinor


Apr 25 2014, 12:41pm

Post #266 of 337 (3085 views)
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Dear me… [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought I had inserted sufficient 'I's (or similar) to make it entirely clear that it was my opinion – which it certainly is. There is a limit to how much one can do this without making sentences read extremely awkwardly.

With ME, it is certainly to do with tolerance levels. I am not a 'whining book lover' (as someone else put it the other day), and could accept many changes and 'gross' moments in AUJ, but in DoS I FEEL the film-makers simply went too far for MY taste.

Unimpressed


Kendalf
Rohan


Apr 25 2014, 12:44pm

Post #267 of 337 (3099 views)
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Elessar [In reply to] Can't Post

"Come on now. You don't think even adults opinion on things change as they get older?"

Sorry, Elessar. Much of what I'd say in reply to this I've already said to DanielLB above and I don't want to clog the thread up with repeated statements. Is that ok? Essentially, yes, I believe adults tastes do change but nowhere near at the same rate as teenagers' do.

"We also tend to develop more rose colored glasses for things we're fond of as time passes. Faults become less of an issue and the movie we play in our mind has a that tint to it."

Yes, I believe you're right here Smile I'd agree that there's a general tendency to become more forgiving over time of films that really affected us when we were younger.

"I have walked there sometimes, beyond the forest and up into the night. I have seen the world fall away and the white light of forever fill the air."


Elessar
Valinor


Apr 25 2014, 1:00pm

Post #268 of 337 (3074 views)
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I's and such [In reply to] Can't Post

You did but that comment still read like a statement of fact. It did to me anyways.

Fair enough.



Noria
Gondor

Apr 25 2014, 1:27pm

Post #269 of 337 (3060 views)
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This is not too surprising given the "Into the Fire" thing [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm fine with the new title just as I was fine with the old one. The movie itself matters more to me than it's title.

After seeing AUJ I realized that these movies were neither going to be LotR: The Prequel or a purist rendition Tolkien's children's tale. They have their own tone and style and I like them as they are.

Great news about the DoS: EE.


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Apr 25 2014, 1:29pm

Post #270 of 337 (3049 views)
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Ooh! We have a playground! [In reply to] Can't Post

*in an Ori voice*

Do they have any slides?

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


DanielLB
Immortal


Apr 25 2014, 2:06pm

Post #271 of 337 (3038 views)
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10 years isn't very rapid ... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Yep, I think "how old you are" is important when considering changing opinions. I'm afraid you're not going to convince me that our attitudes, proclivities and tastes change at just as rapid a rate in our sixties, say, as they do in our teens and twenties. That's just human nature.


Has your opinion of the books ever changed - perhaps a particular character or plot?

Just for the record, and as I said in my original post, this isn't necessarily my opinion. I find it hard to believe that 10 years could pass without change occurring; but the change in tone is probably largely related to opinions and views.



Lindele
Gondor


Apr 25 2014, 2:09pm

Post #272 of 337 (3052 views)
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I truly believe [In reply to] Can't Post

that if none of us had ever seen PJ's The Lord of the Rings we would all feel VERY differently about The Hobbit films.
Expectations.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 25 2014, 2:23pm

Post #273 of 337 (3014 views)
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I think that it's just a matter of emphasis, Kangi. [In reply to] Can't Post

As a title, There and Back Again is anti-climactic and works better as an over-all title for the film trilogy. The Battle of the Five Armies is more dynamic and ties directly into the story's action-climax.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Elessar
Valinor


Apr 25 2014, 2:32pm

Post #274 of 337 (3007 views)
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Spot on [In reply to] Can't Post

I think.

Though I will disagree with you on the CGI looking like a 90's video game.



Magpie
Immortal


Apr 25 2014, 2:47pm

Post #275 of 337 (3046 views)
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I've wondered this... [In reply to] Can't Post

...but to accept it would be to think that this 10 year older self can't find things to love in movies or life or whimsically told tales... or whatever is 'keeping' me from enjoy TH as much as I did LOTR.

I don't believe that's true. I'm finding cinema all the time that I love... and everyone once in a while a thought erupts while I'm watching it... "That's how you make a good movie!"

I do believe that a 10 years after effect may be in play.

If can just list thoughts that I've wondered about that may be in play... (I will use the term 'filmmaker' to include everyone involved with the film including Tolkien Enterprises, WB, and MGM)

----Audiences as a whole are different 10 years later. Not more mature (or too old to enjoy!) but different. People view movies differently than they did 10 years ago. Filmmakers are looking to different demographics to make money and different ways to draw those demographics in.

----The popular style of large movies (as opposed to indie films or rom-coms, etc) is different. I see current patterns in large action blockbusters that I feel influenced TH. (part of the benefit of being old is that one has seen trends come and go)

----Peter Jackson (and everyone else that worked on both LOTR and TH) are different 10 years after. Remember, these are thoughts that I wonder about - not ones with proof. But everyone changes over time and what one person can do at 20 they aren't so keen to do at 30. What one person can do when their children are small isn't so easy when their kids are older. I remember someone saying that working on LOTR just about killed many of the people who did what had to be done. I know that when I commit beyond levels of endurance, I can produce something very wonderful. But the drive to do that may not be so evident the next time I attempt a similar project. I know the cost now. The newness of something that pushed me to work till I dropped isn't so new anymore. I don't know what differences were evident in those who worked on TH - but I know there *were* differences.

---At one point, Peter Jackson didn't want to direct TH. I can remember that fans here were insistent that he be the director. People asked us to pray for him to direct it. I was greatly put off by that. What if there were reasons that kept PJ from wanting the director's seat? Who are we to decide what is best and force him to do it? I don't know that the fans forced him to. But in some respects, it's highly possible he took the director's seat because he was pretty much forced to. I'm sure he took it with all good will and willingness to do his best. But still...

---We are dealing with WB rather than NL. How differently does WB do business than NL did? How many of the things evident in TH that don't sit well with me are the result of mandates set by WB ... not artistic choices by PJ?

---I am different. Yes. I am and everyone else. The whole world is different. Who knows how that plays in. I know that I was looking forward with great eagerness to be part of the excited fanbase following the lead up to the movies. Instead, I became so thorough maddened and disgusted with the level of intercourse on this Hobbit board that I left TORn for months at a time. I even signed myself out, at one point, so I would not be tempted to post. I watched many of my contemporaries on TORn's Message Boards leave around that same time. Some never came back. All *joy* I had in a Tolkien-movie fan base was sucked out of me long before I ever saw the movies. I don't think they would have kept me from loving a movie but maybe they did. I won't refuse to consider it.

In the end, I don't think I'm in a spot where I *can't* like the Hobbit because I like lots of things. I just *don't* like the Hobbit movies. I think I understand some of the reasons why and I've talked about them in the weekly off topic movie thread. I don't bother posting them here because way too often, there is no 'discussion' of movies here. There is only argument and posturing and accusations and the sense that *I* can't possibly say that the movies are disjointed because *another* doesn't think that way. Guess what. Disagreements in 'quality' happens all the time! :-) My husband loves beets and things they're yummy. I hate beets and think they're vile. They are yummy *and* they are vile. Because that's how subjective opinion works. Unless we're interested in finding out why each of us thinks they're either yummy or vile... or how our attraction or repulsion to beets influences our life or our relationship... or whatever (the beet analogy is limited!)... then we have nothing to talk about. We have to accept that we disagree. We can dismiss each other at worthy human beings. Or we can chuckle at our differences and leave each other to find their own head and virtual space to either enjoy or avoid beets.



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