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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
HUGE Announcement from Peter Jackson's facebook page TITLE CHANGE AND DOS EE
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Name
Rohan


Apr 27 2014, 4:47pm

Post #326 of 337 (2479 views)
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According to the book, yes [In reply to] Can't Post

But you've got to remember that these numbers were established before Tolkien wrote LotR.

In LotR, the Elven Kingdom in Mirkwood has a rather large population, and is more important than Tolkien described it in The Hobbit. So you'd think they would be able to muster multiple thousands of troops, not just one thousand.

Then there's the dwarves of the Iron Hills. Logically thinking, 500 isn't much of a force for Dain to bring with him to Erebor. You would think the dwarven race would be able to muster a force larger than 500. These are the same dwarves, after all, who will be resisting Sauron's assault 60 years later.

See what I'm getting at? Middle-earth in TH is considerably smaller and less involved than the Middle-earth Tolkien later describes in LotR.

How many Tolkien fans does it take to change a light bulb?

"Change? Oh my god, what do you mean change?! Never, never, never......"


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 27 2014, 6:05pm

Post #327 of 337 (2475 views)
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I am erring on the consertavive side here. [In reply to] Can't Post

When Tolkien writes of over 500 Dwarves, I assume that it is significantly less than 600, but as much as an additional two score or so. And that is not including Thorin and his companions. We don't know the size of Dain's colony in the Iron Hills; we just know that he can muster a force of over 500 Dwarves. Perhaps the rest of his warriors were left behind for defense or as a possible reserve. However, the number of Dain's force is so well known from the book that I don't see a good reason to inflate it much.

Thranduil was marching with "many spearmen and bowmen." We know that there were at least one thousand spearmen (probably more). If we assume a rough parity of bowmen then that gives the Elvenking at least 2000 fighters--maybe half again that amount.

We have only the vaguest idea of the number of Men in Bard's army. For the sake of arguement, let's say that they numbered anywhere from 200 to 400 men (also including a few dozen Eagles).

So, conservatively the Free People might have numbered less than 3000 at the Battle of Five Armies. A more generous estimate might bring that to over 4000. I'm still thinking that we have at least 10,000 Orcs (including goblins), Wargs and wild wolves. That seems like it should be more than enough for Peter Jackson.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Hanzkaz
Rohan

Apr 27 2014, 6:32pm

Post #328 of 337 (2455 views)
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I look at it this way - [In reply to] Can't Post

 The forces of 'Good' non-human races were more powerful during the time of the Hobbit, and due to the Battle of Five Armies and the continued exodus of the Elves, their power was much diminished by the time of LOTR.

Secondly, during the LOTR movies, we only saw a part of Sauron's forces. His armies were spread all over Middle-Earth wreaking havoc. We never saw the Dark Lord's full might at the time.

So we could get a battle to rival or even surpass the 'later' ones.

___________________________________________________


From the makers of 'The Lord of the Rings' comes the sequel to Peter Jackson's Hobbit Trilogy -
'The War in the North, Part I : The Sword in the Tomb'.



(This post was edited by Hanzkaz on Apr 27 2014, 6:34pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 27 2014, 6:43pm

Post #329 of 337 (2440 views)
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Only because Elves and Dwarves reproduce slowly [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The forces of 'Good' non-human races were more powerful during the time of the Hobbit, and due to the Battle of Five Armies and the continued exodus of the Elves, their power was much diminished by the time of LOTR.



That's only true in the sense that the Mirwood Elves and the Dwarves of the Iron Hills took many casualties in the Battle of Five Armies. Both races replenish their numbers slowly--particularly the Dwarves--and they have only had a few decades to recover. The folk of Rivendell and Lothlorien never took part in the battle, but their strength has been diminished by Elves taking ship to sail West to Valinor. Both stories are set in essentially the same period--near the end of the Third Age.


Quote

Secondly, during the LOTR movies, we only saw a part of Sauron's forces. His armies were spread all over Middle-Earth wreaking havoc. We never saw the Dark Lord's full might at the time.

So we could get a battle to rival or even surpass the 'later' ones.



True, 'though in Tolkien's The Hobbit, we never got any sense of the size of the Necromancer's forces. Even in Jackson's version, we can assume that Sauron has allies in the South and East that don't come into this story; and that his servants are breeding more Orcs in Mordor who also don't figure in the Bo5A.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Hanzkaz
Rohan

Apr 27 2014, 6:58pm

Post #330 of 337 (2461 views)
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Pretty much what I was referring to. [In reply to] Can't Post


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Only because Elves and Dwarves reproduce slowly


While Sauron was in Dol Guldur, he focused on the Elves and Dwarves, and then he moved to Mordor and went to war against Gondor (I'm talking movie canon).

The power of Men (especially Gondor) was weakened by years of fighting against Sauron's armies. They could still replenish their numbers quicker than the other races though, which is why Gandalf set his hopes on them.

___________________________________________________


From the makers of 'The Lord of the Rings' comes the sequel to Peter Jackson's Hobbit Trilogy -
'The War in the North, Part I : The Sword in the Tomb'.



MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Apr 27 2014, 7:05pm

Post #331 of 337 (2462 views)
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that is just a blueprint for the battle [In reply to] Can't Post

it speaks of "hosts" and "many", PJ could easily make the host hundreds or more.


The flames of war are upon you..


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Apr 27 2014, 7:13pm

Post #332 of 337 (2458 views)
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My point is that, in the books... [In reply to] Can't Post

...the Bo5A was a much smaller battle than Pelennor. So the Bo5A should be much smaller than Pelennor in the film as well.


Quote
PJ could easily make the host hundreds or more


Unfortunately, PJ has carte blanche to do whatever he wants, and seemingly no one to reign in his excesses. So yeah, he might turn 500 Dwarves into 5000 Dwarves.


the 13th warrior
Rivendell

Apr 27 2014, 9:06pm

Post #333 of 337 (2446 views)
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The Good Guys attack the Bad Guys from the Lonely Mt. itself..... [In reply to] Can't Post

Hello All, according to the Hobbit book version (here we go again with books and film comparisons), the elves, dwarves, and men gather on two arms/spurs of the Lonely Mt. and try to lure the orc armies into a valley, the only way that leads to the main gate. This is actually a real military tactic from Greek-Roman armies to medieval ones--get a large army with superior numbers all jammed up in a narrow space and attack them from the high ground and the rear. But the book says even this tactic only works for a while and Beorn and the Eagles are the real heroes who save the day at the last minute. But a small force might use this strategy& tactics if they were outnumbered.

Again, we don't know how filmmaker and war-master PJ is going to play this out. But it would make sense to stick to the book on this one. I am sure we will cheer on our heroes as they bash and slash--and some will meet their end on the battlefield--tragic and bittersweet.

regards, the 13th warrior.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 28 2014, 4:03pm

Post #334 of 337 (2398 views)
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I think that I undercounted the Elves. [In reply to] Can't Post

As it is, I believe that I undervalued the Wood-elves by at least 1000 men. Tolkien wrote that there were at least 1000 spearmen (probably more). He doesn't actually state that the bowmen numbered as many, but we can at least speculate that that was so, bringing their numbers up to over 2000.

Jackson isn't going to want to inflate the numbers too much on the side of the good guys; the audience still has to see them as badly outnumbered.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Imladris18
Lorien


Apr 28 2014, 4:10pm

Post #335 of 337 (2401 views)
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I don't get the vibe that there are *that* many people in Lake-town or elves in Mirkwood. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think we'll see more conservative numbers with more intimate battle scenes for the good guys a la Helm's Deep.



Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 28 2014, 6:13pm

Post #336 of 337 (2402 views)
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There may have been more Elves than you think. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I think we'll see more conservative numbers with more intimate battle scenes for the good guys a la Helm's Deep.



I think that Thranduil could reasonably have mustered a couple of thousand Wood-elves or so. The totals for the Armies of the Free Peoples of the North could be as low as less than 3000, or a bit over 4000. I thiink that more than that would be pushing it. The number of enemies might rival or exceed Saruman's forces at Helm's Deep, but they will also be less disciplined (particularly the Wargs and Bats).

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 28 2014, 6:23pm)


Imladris18
Lorien


Apr 28 2014, 6:16pm

Post #337 of 337 (2414 views)
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You very well may be correct. [In reply to] Can't Post

Thranduils' kingdom just seems fairly small from my perception.

In any case, I don't think we'll see anything close to Pelennor Fields numbers.


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