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Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor
Apr 24 2014, 11:26am
Post #1 of 16
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Will we get the banner-bearer who tells Thorin he can eat it?
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I'm referring to this bit from the book, at the end of chapter 15, "The Gathering of the Clouds"
'Ere many hours were past, the banner-bearers returned, and trumpeters stood forth and blew a blast:
"In the name of Esgaroth and the Forest," one cried, "... yada yada ... but if Thorin would have the friendship and honour of the lands about, as his sires had of old, then he will also give somewhat of his own for the comfort of the men of the Lake."
Then Thorin seized a bow of horn and shot an arrow at the speaker....
"Since that is your answer," he called in return, "I declare the Mountain besieged. You shall not depart from it, until you call on your side for a truce and a parley. We will bear no weapon against you, but we leave you to your gold. You may eat that, if you will!"
With that the messengers departed swiftly....'
Tolkien did not specify if the messenger was Elf or Man. But he always struck me as someone with perhaps a bigger place in his society than your usual banner-bearer, with the authority and decisive way he spoke. Of course, he would have been empowered by both Bard and Thranduil. But they wouldn't send just anyone to deliver the ultimatum now, would they? Especially Thranduil, who apparently asserted his will to not go on the offensive.
It would great, to me, to see this in the movie, and looking at the field of characters we've got so far, my guess is, if it is in, the words may be given to Legolas to say... Bain is too young, and a teenage boy's voice is unreliable in situations requiring gravitas  Unless there's someone among the men we've seen who can take this on. What do you think? Who has the gumption to tell the new King Under the Mountain to go stuff it?
Fan of both books and movies. Oh, and it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.
Thranduil Appreciation: I, II, III
(This post was edited by Lurker in the Mirk on Apr 24 2014, 11:28am)
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Loresilme
Valinor
Apr 24 2014, 12:54pm
Post #2 of 16
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Fun idea for discussion! You are on the mark, Lurker, that is a line that could be a real gem in the movie! I agree, based on previous ways the films have given existing book lines to different characters, that they'd likely utilize a more prominent character to speak them. So.... let's see..... well possibly Legolas, he so far has been pretty nasty towards those dwarves and so that line would be very in character for him. It could be Thranduil, but I think that would make it more like the Elves are leading the march / siege on the mountain and I had pictured it being more the Men. (Maybe that's just me though.) What stands out for me is the words "in the name of Esgaroth" and "...the men of the Lake". So far it seems Bard has been the person most concerned for the men of the Lake, so perhaps it'll be Bard who has those lines. Plus, Bard and Thorin had their face-off on the stairs already, which left Bard looking and feeling pretty stung, so Bard would probably relish being able to fling those words at Thorin. I'm thinking it'll be Bard.
However .... now you have me thinking, will 'someone' become the leader of the march / siege on the mountain in the film - and would it be the Men or the Elves?
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Avandel
Half-elven
Apr 24 2014, 1:41pm
Post #3 of 16
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Legolas seems to have backed up his father through the films, and I don't think Thranduil, even if he allies for men would passionately demand gold/supplies/a share for them. Also it'd be kind of shame that the movie Thorin, having saved Legolas, is now firing arrows at him (on the other hand, RA has said "expect the unexpected" where the TABA Thorin is concerned.)
Tho I would love some more verbal sparring between Thranduil and Thorin.
I already pictured this scene in my mind, tho having always been on the dwarf's side book and movie, it's one of the passages in the book where I was cheering Thorin on - viewing it more as the book Thorin telling this rabble to go *bleep* themselves. So I'm really hoping THIS Thorin fires off a suitable response and I'll be cheering the movie Thorin on there too. And I think it will be Bard - there's been comments from LE about the lowly Bard rising to a leadership position, and as a character he's already shown the passion for the Laketowners and no sympathy for the reclaiming of Erebor "the greed of a mountain king who could not see beyond his own desire."
With that mindset and (probably) looking around at a burning town and dead and injured, his terrified children, I think the character would do whatever it took to help his people. Not the best person to confront a maddened Thorin, who I am guessing will be rageful and paranoid by that time. *sigh*. And I am sure Thorin remembers Bard and their clash on the steps.
So I can picture a maddened, (but magnificent) Thorin taking aim at Bard - perhaps it's what triggers Bilbo to act, torn between loyalty to Thorin, the dwarves, and wanting to help the Laketowners?
PS. I'm not sure at least over the short term telling the dwarves to starve is really effective - it's one of those logical things I've thought about. There must have been some sort of food source in Erebor and as depicted there was plenty of water (the Lord of Silver Fountains). Even deep cave streams have fish, crayfish, stuff you can eat. Worms and other critters.
Plus, who is to say w. their ability to mine the dwarves couldn't just open up a secret way out, or that other dwarves would get wind of the situation and come to their aid. Not to mention as winter closed in, the Laketowners outside are still sitting there w. no shelter and food, unless Thranduil will care for them all. Just sayin'.
"Richard Armitage’s performance has been one of the best things about the new trilogy, making you believe that a hairy dwarf, so often the comedy element of the LOTR films, can be a heroic, tortured, and dangerous badass." - Den of Geek, The Hobbit: There & Back Again, 7 Apr 2014 - 07:07
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The Ranger Anduiel
The Shire
Apr 24 2014, 10:05pm
Post #4 of 16
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In visioning that scene in the movie. I agree I could see Bard delivering that message.
Though I pray they give Legolas more fitting lines in the next. DOS did neither his LOTR movie or book persona justice. I shuddered when he asked why Kili was staring all I could think was "You are at least 1900 years old, really you don't know why a man looks at a woman!" It was "a diversion!" All over again. I breathed a huge sigh of relief when it was revealed that the screen shot from EW was after these lines;
Bard: "What is it you know"
Legolas: "It is not what I know, but what I fear is to come" ( or something to that effect, it was a hidden gem in a production blog I believe or interview)
Either way both Legolas and Bard have to power to pull off the scene you speak of, perhaps they will do it together!
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Avandel
Half-elven
Apr 25 2014, 12:41am
Post #5 of 16
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Yes, it's time for the "LOTR" Legolas
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"Bard: "What is it you know"
Legolas: "It is not what I know, but what I fear is to come" ( or something to that effect, it was a hidden gem in a production blog I believe or interview)"
Perhaps that is where this image comes from?
I can see the Legolas I "knew" from LOTR saying that. And I wonder if we might see a tad bit of ambivalence from Legolas about the dwarves, in that while he was harsh in DOS, he seemed to have some tolerance in that
he hopped across their heads at the river (a real *bleep* wouldn't have worried who he was shooting at, since the dwarves were escaping prisoners) and I'm assuming Legolas knows he was saved from a stab in the back by a dwarf - the last look exchanged between Thorin and Legolas is interesting. And Legolas does seem to be very interested in this focus on the dwarves by the orcs, and certainly not as isolationist as his father.
I could see Bard and Legolas trying to confront Thorin together, and just getting shot at for their pains. Perhaps it will be Legolas (with his elven quickness) who pushes Bard aside, maybe.
BTW yes, I love Thorin's fire and determination and refusal to answer to anyone. So yeah, part of me will be cheering Thorin on if he fires off an arrow, but still, I'll be sad, because I don't believe a sane Thorin would behave that way - anyone who led his own people in rebuilding and who once had a trading relationship with Esgaroth would know the wisdom of helping the Laketowners, even the justice and/or have compassion even if Bard were getting on his nerves. And Balin would have been able to give counsel and I think Thorin would have listened, and to Fili and Kili as well (Bard WAS kind to them). Nor has Thorin even been ignoble or even seemed to care about all the gold as his grandfather sickened. As LE and EL have said about the third film, lots of tragedy.
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The Ranger Anduiel
The Shire
Apr 25 2014, 1:15am
Post #6 of 16
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That is the one, I believe the line was part of a Phillipa interview the more I think about it, I found it while on a very long binge of everything Hobbit via YouTube haha.
Your take is very interesting, I too looked into the look between he and Thorin, well and every other aspect of the performance. Legolas has always been my favorite character long before the original trilogy. Basically he had me at "I am going to find the sun". I was always pleased with Orlando portrayed in the first trilogy ( more so once the HE'S were out). DOS had me worried until I found that quote, I have tried to take a lot of things as more taking in everything, and duty bound and less jealous naive child. Though I wouldn't trade his bloody nose discovery for anything haha!
If they did the scene together it could work as a sort of foreshadowing to his role in the fellowship and as Aragorn's right hand ( of sorts). Supposedly PJ has said that he was going to be one of the main links to LOTR ( though I would think the ring and Saron are enough).
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Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor
Apr 25 2014, 3:43am
Post #7 of 16
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Well, I dropped Bard and Thranduil from the list of potentials
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Just cos I don't see standing at the front gate twice as something the leaders of the 2 armies would or should do (assuming the movie also addresses the plotline about the number of attempts at parley Bard and Thranduil took)
Realistically, I really don't see them introducing a new character just to deliver the ultimatum, and given the storylines and characterisations we've gotten, Legolas has the biggest odds of getting the job.
But, Bard might get the job, given the established tension between him and Thorin as you've described, as I just don't see anyone among the men we've met who might fit the bill.
Nah, Bard and Thranduil are the leaders of the respective hosts. Plus the battleplan would be laid out with Gandalf's input so it's a co-chair situation. Though of course, Thranduil should be bringing his impressive abilities and experience to the fore, and I imagine the others in the war council might find it a bit difficult to oppose his views. And just for being the biggest contingent, the Elves might seem to be on the leading edge of this business. I would imagine that with his success at taking Smaug out that Bard would gain some swag though, and probably the men following him by proxy as well, so that might stir things up a bit more. 
However .... now you have me thinking, will 'someone' become the leader of the march / siege on the mountain in the film - and would it be the Men or the Elves?
Fan of both books and movies. Oh, and it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.
Thranduil Appreciation: I, II, III
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Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor
Apr 25 2014, 7:24am
Post #9 of 16
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I'm thinking it's a tossup between Legolas and Bard as I've said in my reply to Loresilme.
I see that your allegiance is clear, and you are firmly standing by your king
Me too! That confrontation they had was really something. But I don't see this bit as the part where we'll get it, just cos of the context of this scene. Also, Thranduil wouldn't be wanting to fan the flames at this point, as it were, so I would think he would stay away for this round.
Tho I would love some more verbal sparring between Thranduil and Thorin.
I think this would be the last straw on that particular camel's back. Before this, we should have the accummulating signs of Thorin's downward spiral and the slow realization Bilbo goes through, the agnarorisis (a new fancy word I just learnt ) that prompts to do what he'll do.
So I can picture a maddened, (but magnificent) Thorin taking aim at Bard - perhaps it's what triggers Bilbo to act, torn between loyalty to Thorin, the dwarves, and wanting to help the Laketowners?
Good points. I'm thinking that both Bard and Thranduil are making plans based on some supposition that Thorin will see reason once he had a chance to calm down and think things through. Both man and elf would have had experience enough to know that a drawn out siege does no one any good. And in fact could be detrimental to their own hordes given the state of the area outside Erebor and the impending winter, and the potential you mentioned about the dwarves' options. The interesting thing here is Thranduil's reluctance to use force versus Bard's willingness to do so. If things had been left to play out without that threat, what would have happened when the combined hosts of men and elves had been sitting it out on the desolation for say, a month or two? But well, we know how everybody plans pans out in the end...
PS. I'm not sure at least over the short term telling the dwarves to starve is really effective - it's one of those logical things I've thought about. There must have been some sort of food source in Erebor and as depicted there was plenty of water (the Lord of Silver Fountains). Even deep cave streams have fish, crayfish, stuff you can eat. Worms and other critters.
Plus, who is to say w. their ability to mine the dwarves couldn't just open up a secret way out, or that other dwarves would get wind of the situation and come to their aid. Not to mention as winter closed in, the Laketowners outside are still sitting there w. no shelter and food, unless Thranduil will care for them all. Just sayin'.
Fan of both books and movies. Oh, and it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.
Thranduil Appreciation: I, II, III
(This post was edited by Lurker in the Mirk on Apr 25 2014, 7:33am)
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Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor
Apr 25 2014, 7:32am
Post #10 of 16
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Since the attire of the person in the background suggests they're not on the battlegrounds, perhaps they were talking about stuff as they go about organizing the relief efforts. I truly hope though that it is not Legolas who then goes off and get Thranduil to get off his rocker and get involved. Thranduil shouldn't have had to be prodded to roll out the forces, nor to lend a hand with the relief efforts.
Fan of both books and movies. Oh, and it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.
Thranduil Appreciation: I, II, III
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Apr 25 2014, 1:15pm
Post #11 of 16
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Oh, the wonders of an unbalanced mind! (TABA/tBotFA Spoilers)
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Reading your thread title, I just HAD to look. It may tell you something about me, when I confess my first thoughts;
1. *reads title*
2. Wonders (out loud!!) 'Eats it...Eats what? The banner?'
3. His hat?
4. Dirt?
5. Oh, do you mean when he takes the dirt nap?
6.*reads post*
7. Oh.......
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor
Apr 25 2014, 1:33pm
Post #12 of 16
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LOL! At least it got your attention good eh?
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But I confess, now that I look at it, coulda worded it betta! 
Fan of both books and movies. Oh, and it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.
Thranduil Appreciation: I, II, III
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Eruvandi
Tol Eressea
Apr 25 2014, 8:48pm
Post #13 of 16
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Thranduil shouldn't have had to be prodded to roll out the forces, nor to lend a hand with the relief efforts.
"But there’s empty cross, there’s an empty tomb
Fire and wind now sweeping in this tiny upper room
There’s a hungry world, there’s a risen King
Unlock the doors, what reason more could we ever need?
So sing with me, I dare you to
Because there’s an empty cross; there’s an empty tomb"
~Empty (Disciples)-sung by Dan Haseltine and Matt Hammitt
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Avandel
Half-elven
Apr 26 2014, 1:14am
Post #14 of 16
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Good observation about Thranduil and Bard
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That was insightful - that Thranduil is more reluctant to use force. Perhaps it is his great age - he knows the cost of war, and probably often the uselessness of it, in the end. While Bard - he has know idea of the Pandora's box he could open. I hope to see that portrayed in the film - a different side to the Elven King.
Ah, yes, my absolute loyalty to Thorin, no matter what, for a host of reasons. He was my favorite in the book as well.
*SPOILER*
IMO no matter his behavior (book or movie) what's fascinating to me is that no-one's hand are clean, yet all are trying to do the right thing. Thranduil when he turned his back being a case in point - should he have sacrificed his own people for honor? Or, did he only put off the inevitable, and behave dishonorably as well?
Thorin being another, in that RA has alluded (in interviews) to becoming physically violent with Bilbo (something I am dreading, watching a maddened, enraged Throin beat the *bleep* out of Bilbo - IF that is what RA means.) Thorin's dragon sick, yes, but did Bilbo do the right thing re the Arkenstone? Did he even have any kind of understanding how traitorous his behavior would appear to a DWARF re their culture, let alone to a tortured, insane dwarf? Yet Thorin would not even be in Erebor, if not for Bilbo.
LOL it'll be easier for me to do what Gandalf says, and choose a side - or just stick with my king, to whatever end. PS. Love your image, that's awesome - nice kitty!
"Richard Armitage’s performance has been one of the best things about the new trilogy, making you believe that a hairy dwarf, so often the comedy element of the LOTR films, can be a heroic, tortured, and dangerous badass." - Den of Geek, The Hobbit: There & Back Again, 7 Apr 2014 - 07:07
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Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor
Apr 27 2014, 4:14am
Post #15 of 16
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Uh... contextually that wouldn't happen...
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... given the story we've got so far, and knowing the general storyline, I'd say not gonna happen. Well, unless PJ makes (another) major book departure again.
Fan of both books and movies. Oh, and it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.
Thranduil Appreciation: I, II, III
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Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor
Apr 27 2014, 4:53am
Post #16 of 16
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Shades of grey, instead of black and white in a kiddie read
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So right! I read The Hobbit, oh... about 10 years ago, during the LotR fever, already fully adult, and so I cannot speak as to the fascination a child would have. But I can imagine. What's interesting to me was that, despite being a children's book, there's some very adult thinking in it. So much packed into a deceptively simple story, and a lot of it wasn'tt even articulated really. It is just such a pity that we would never get the adult version that would go with LotR.
IMO no matter his behavior (book or movie) what's fascinating to me is that no-one's hand are clean, yet all are trying to do the right thing.
Heh... Sorry to say, for me, Thorin was a obnoxious princeling, who in the course of the book, went from brat to hero, and turned out to be another character whose arc was left to our imagination. I find it a fascinating question: What was going through his mind when the elves and men first arrived, to the rage he felt at Bilbo, to his decision to charge and join the fray instead of sitting it out? He very well could and end up being the one with the last laugh if he did. But he chose to jump in, and we know how that turned out. And as to why he made that decision, how much influence did the other 12 have on him?
Ah, yes, my absolute loyalty to Thorin, no matter what, for a host of reasons. He was my favorite in the book as well.
I'm actually looking forward to Thorin's abuse of Bilbo, just cos DOS gave tantalizing bits of the slowburn, and that's gotta boil over sometime eh? Plus the acting out is a vital part in the deconstruction of the proud almost King of the Dwarves - he can't continue to be noble, honourable and proud all the way though. So let's have some Dwarven fallacies on display
... though I feel the abuse would be more verbal, rather than physical, aside from a few shoves, or a sword to the throat or chest. Thorin does seem to be ambivalent about Bilbo's role and contribution to the "success" of his quest. He belittles Bilbo's abilities and yet it is Bilbo who is the reason he got to Erebor at all. Wouldn't help matters to have his psychosis getting in the way of his analysis on the Bilbo factor.
Thorin being another, in that RA has alluded (in interviews) to becoming physically violent with Bilbo (something I am dreading, watching a maddened, enraged Throin beat the *bleep* out of Bilbo - IF that is what RA means.) Thorin's dragon sick, yes, but did Bilbo do the right thing re the Arkenstone? Did he even have any kind of understanding how traitorous his behavior would appear to a DWARF re their culture, let alone to a tortured, insane dwarf? Yet Thorin would not even be in Erebor, if not for Bilbo.
Yeah! They've done a great job of showing the cold dispassion (and warrior cool) in DOS. While I'm really looking forward to Thranduil being the formidable swordsman in the Battle, I want to see more of his character and interactions with others too (another verbal sparring with Thorin would be icing on the cake). His experience at the Last Alliance has to be a factor in how he conducts business at BoFA, and with his allies.
I hope to see that portrayed in the film - a different side to the Elven King.
I think that Thranduil is probably aware he's putting off the inevitable. Afterall, it'd just be a few wingbeats for Smaug to menace Mirkwood when he runs out of sport in the Desolation, or gets bored, and decides he'd like to check out the Elvenking's treasure chest. But why trouble trouble until trouble troubles you? When his entourage arrived to witness the Smaug attack, he probably made a quick assessment, and (rightly, imo), decided getting involved was just throwing elvish lives away (plus he was not dressed for the occasion ). As for Thorin's accusation that he turned his back when the Dwarves went asking for help, I guess its an extended case of not-my-problem and the reluctance to attract Smaug's attention to Dwarven presence in the Forest, especially when he already drew the line by riding off in the beginning. Inconsistency is bad for governing I wager.
Thranduil when he turned his back being a case in point - should he have sacrificed his own people for honor? Or, did he only put off the inevitable, and behave dishonorably as well?
Heheh Thanks. I'd put up one of one of our real kitties, but I can't choose either!
LOL it'll be easier for me to do what Gandalf says, and choose a side - or just stick with my king, to whatever end. PS. Love your image, that's awesome - nice kitty!
Fan of both books and movies. Oh, and it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.
Thranduil Appreciation: I, II, III
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