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StevenUmbrello
Bree
Apr 23 2014, 4:58pm
Post #26 of 51
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Thank you very much, it is greatly appreciated!
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StevenUmbrello
Bree
Apr 23 2014, 5:01pm
Post #27 of 51
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Wow, comparing it to macbeth is another essay all together, a great idea.
In terms of Tolkien, I agree with you that a mystery is more interesting than having a definite answer, although we are constantly looking for one. It is the search for the answer (that will never come) which is where the fun lies, and allows the readers to open their minds to new possibilities.
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Brethil
Half-elven
Apr 23 2014, 9:51pm
Post #28 of 51
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I often wonder if the early days of Turin, and the accidental death of Saeros might be linked to the moral lesson of Kullervo: Turin was raised short of parental loving wisdom, in part by the necessity of keeping him safe. And like Kullervo, his decisons turn dark. Yet I feel like JRRT was a bit gentler to Turin than the source material...Morwen was prideful but did what she thought was best for Turin's welfare. Thus maybe Turin's arc towards dark happenings was also a bit softer than Kullervo's?
Curious - how do you see the death of Beleg as the curse in action? I ask because the death of Beleg is so complicated by the intervening third character - the sentience of Anglachel - that for myself I still feel uncertainty as to the underlying dynamic of that event. I should love to further know your thoughts on this part.
I wonder too, if Turin's evolving names were an indicator of his knowledge of the curse? Especially Turambar: trying to master Fate. Which then subconsciously (or consciously) allows the concept of Fate to have hold over his actions, as your central point describes.
Really excellent read, thank you Steven! I really enjoyed this. Looking forward to moving through CoH!  Thanks for taking a chapter for us.
The Third TORn Amateur Symposium kicks off this Sunday, April 13th, in the Reading Room. Come and join us for Tolkien-inspired writings!
**CoH Rem. Just sayin' **
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StevenUmbrello
Bree
Apr 23 2014, 9:56pm
Post #29 of 51
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I also look forward to the CoH chapter. With regards to the Death of Beleg the third wheel, Anglachel, is quite interesting. I wonder if Anglachel is itself affected by the curse, or is it simply Turin who then uses it. Perhaps the voice of Anglachel is simply in Turin's mind, I may be wrong but is it not only Turin who hears its voice? Maybe the voice is Turin's on consciousness manifesting itself at the particular emotional stage
So again we come to the same standstill, is the curse real? is it illusory? are there parts that are falsely attributed to either? Who knows!
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Khim
Bree
Apr 23 2014, 10:43pm
Post #30 of 51
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A Turnin of phrase that deserves a curse if there ever was one. Nice job!
I am Khim akin to Mim.
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Khim
Bree
Apr 24 2014, 12:06am
Post #31 of 51
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Khim has a bad feeling about this.....
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An arrow of outrageous fortune took me out of the picture. And I forgot to send Mim a Father’s Day card! I was collateral damage in the course of Turin’s cursed existence, but I might be able to gasp out a few thoughts.
I read your interesting paper on the complex inter-relationships between cause and effect, the external and internal factors that play out in the life of one of Tolkien's major characters, Turin Turambar. I also read all the comments up to this point.
Good stuff.
I’m afraid I feel incapable of giving an adequate response. I basically agree with the seeming consensus that the issues are many, and the author leaves too much up to the reader for anything like a definitive analysis to be possible. Although there's plenty to spill ink about, if you forgive my butchering of an old saw.
I am loathe to give this topic less than its due, but I feel compelled to say something. We must consider Turin in his place as among the most important characters in Tolkien’s mythology. If we accept that his story is a tragedy, than we must accept that his story is of a good man, with flaws, that comes to a tragic end. When a bad guy gets his comeuppance it isn’t a tragedy. And if it is simply Morgoth's curse playing out, then that implies hopelessness, which I believe Tolkien would never espouse. We can’t dismiss Morgoth’s influence, nor can we forgive Turin his prideful rashness. I feel that throughout his Legendarium Tolkien presents us with notions of a divine plan, predetermined fate and such, but what he actually depicts is individuals determined to do as they will, who by their virtue or evil achieve the ends they deserve.
As theologians have debated the mysteries of life on Earth in cloisters through all our history, so may we ponder what the hell is going on in Beleriand.
I’ll finish with an absurdly expedient reference to Wikipedia:
Aristotle's tragic hero:
Aristotle shared his view of what makes a tragic hero in his Poetics. Aristotle suggests that a hero of a tragedy must evoke in the audience a sense of pity or fear, saying, “the change of fortune presented must not be the spectacle of a virtuous man brought from prosperity to adversity." He establishes the concept that the emotion of pity stems not from a person becoming better but when a person receives undeserved misfortune and fear comes when the misfortune befalls a man like us. This is why Aristotle points out the simple fact that, “The change of fortune should be not from bad to good, but, reversely, from good to bad.” According to Aristotle a tragic hero ought to be a man whose misfortune comes to him, not through vice or depravity but by some error of judgment. For example King Oedipus kills his father from impulse and marries his mother out of ignorance.
Aristotle contests that the tragic hero has to be a man “who is not eminently good and just, whose misfortune is brought about not by vice or depravity, but by some error or frailty.” He is not making the hero entirely good in which he can do no wrong but rather has the hero committing an injury or a great wrong leading to his misfortune. Aristotle is not contradicting himself saying that the hero has to be virtuous and yet not eminently good. Being eminently good is a moral specification to the fact that he is virtuous. He still has to be - to some degree - good. Aristotle adds another qualification to that of being virtuous but not entirely good when he says, “He must be one who is highly renowned and prosperous.” He goes on to give examples such as Oedipus and Thyestes.”
I am Khim akin to Mim.
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StevenUmbrello
Bree
Apr 24 2014, 12:12am
Post #32 of 51
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Thank you for your thoughts.
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Morthoron
Gondor
Apr 24 2014, 3:34am
Post #33 of 51
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Have you considered the Anglo-Saxon concept of wyrd in the Turin tragedy? Wyrd is a noun taken from the verb weorþan, which means "to become" or "come to pass", and is an all-encompassing and transcendent form of fate or destiny that Tolkien was intimately aware of, particularly in the case of the warrior Beowulf, who surrendered to the whims of wyrd prior to battle, believing the outcome was already predetermined.
As I stated, wyrd goes beyond fate, it is like a spider web, or better, a loom upon which the Wyrd Sisters (cognate to the Fates of Greek myth) weave the doom of an individual and other individuals wound to each other. The Fates do not determine one's doom, they merely follow the schematic set by the individual.
Wyrd is a complicated subject to explain, because we are enmeshed in our doom as well as others. We cannot determine wyrd, or fight against it. In the words of the Anglo-Saxon poem The Wanderer (part of the poem was adapted by Tolkien for "The Lament of the Rohirrim" in The Two Towers ("Hwær cwom mearg? Hwær cwom mago?" Meaning, "Where is the horse gone? Where the rider?"). But this stanza speaks directly of wyrd:
No weary mind may stand against Wyrd
Nor may a wrecked will work new hope;
Wherefore, most often, those eager for fame
Bind the dark mood fast in their breasts.
One must hide their hunger, hurt and hopelessness, and persevere in the face of inexorable fate, or die trying. The Anglo-Saxon warrior's code.
I could do an essay on that one word! But great job, Steven. I enjoyed your piece.
Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 24 2014, 6:32am
Post #34 of 51
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'I could do an essay on that one word!' [wyrd]. What a great idea! Next symposium? //
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~~~~~~
"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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Khim
Bree
Apr 24 2014, 10:24am
Post #35 of 51
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I'd say wyrd up! Bro. [Turin Dictionary Translation: I comprehend what you are saying and verify that your statement is true, my good brother.]
An excellent point. While I think a discussion of Turin as a hero with a tragic flaw could be a valid one, the notion of wyrd no doubt resonated more strongly with Tolkien. The bonds between comrades in arms, honor without hope, fighting the long defeat, traits exemplified by characters such as Wiglaf in Beowulf, were what he Grokked, but he had to reconcile this with his Christian beliefs, the good news of ultimate salvation.
My old term paper in this TAS scratched the surface of this issue.
I am Khim akin to Mim.
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Apr 24 2014, 2:39pm
Post #36 of 51
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Heads, Good wins; Tails, Evil loses.
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I like this eloquently stated, (if borrowed) thought. I think I can add a few cents:
Turin is undoubtedly important as you say. He figured in the end time myth construct, the Dagor Dagorath. So he had a dpecialimpirtance in the cosmological scheme, I'd say. Perhaps the idea of contrasting and incorporating different types of heroes in the Legendarium was to show that no matter the protagonist, if he acted (or tried to act) for Good, then they would be part of the Eucotastrophic redemption that is to come at the end of all things? Just another nail in the coffin of Evil!
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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StevenUmbrello
Bree
Apr 24 2014, 2:52pm
Post #37 of 51
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Ya when I think of Turin's action during his life I always think to the Dagorath. Because in the end all these things will nonetheless come to pass. Great analysis
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Apr 25 2014, 1:07am
Post #38 of 51
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Even though trying to figure it out is frustrating!
The idea of the vast amount of interplay between the 'fated' and 'fate-makers' is profoundly deep and elusive. It's a bit of chicken-and-egg scenario-- did it happen that way because they set their own course, or because the Weavers wove it that way? How much influence did each party have? Most of us have heard that 'a butterfly in just the right place, at just the right time, can set in motion the forces for a hurricane', but what conditions put that insect there? Could they be related to the weather patterns that allowed the possibility of the hurricane? It really ties in well to the idea of a self-fulfilling prophecy. So much to discuss, but few answers, I fear.
Also, there is the idea of destiny and predeterminism. Can a person change their fate? Does the very act of trying, only confirm history's course? Deep questions, but I'd venture to say that changing the future is a ticklish business, In any case, there are so many variables. It's like chasing a herd of baby chicks! ( If you've ever done it, you know that they move in waves of a swarm, making it hard in the extreme to catch them, and each time one moves, it creates dozens of ripple-effect changes in the behaviour of the other chicks.)
What if you knew the future, though? What if you knew what was going to happen in your life by default? Could you change it? Like I said, it's tricky. You never know what collateral damage you will do. As you say, and the Saxon's believed, it would take no small amount of courage and strength to defy Wyrd. I like to think of the changing of Wyrd to be difficult because you have to overcome any pattern you have set with your previous actions, and in the short-term, trying to change a well-formed Wyrd, I think it's be like trying to change the direction of a speeding car that has no power steering, you'd have to overcompensate in the extreme, and what effect would that have on ones sanity? So, in the end it's really the old step-on-a-bug-kill-your-father time travel paradox.
Oddly enough, most of the questions that are asked about fate, time-travel, and changing destiny are the same. We ask the same questions endlessly in different settings. What does that mean? I have no idea!
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
(This post was edited by Rembrethil on Apr 25 2014, 1:15am)
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StevenUmbrello
Bree
Apr 25 2014, 1:09am
Post #39 of 51
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Apr 25 2014, 2:23am
Post #40 of 51
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The official TDT (Turin Dictionary Translation) would explain so much of 'just what he was thinking(!)'.
Could this be an entry?
Today I saw a fawn, leaping in the forest, and lo, I am that fawn, free unfettered. Then I saw a hunter take aim, and it fell to the ground. I am still that fawn, I cannot escape my fate, that arrow pointed at me will still strike. I know not when.
Today some girl was following me. I don't know why. I heard that Thingol deems me innocent and I can go back to Doriath. I don't know why. Its raining again today. I don't know why. -courtesy of Brethil
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Brethil
Half-elven
Apr 25 2014, 2:42am
Post #41 of 51
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Rem, your entry was much more poetic than mine! //
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The Third TORn Amateur Symposium kicks off this Sunday, April 13th, in the Reading Room. Come and join us for Tolkien-inspired writings!
**CoH Rem. Just sayin' **
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StevenUmbrello
Bree
Apr 25 2014, 2:49am
Post #42 of 51
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You guys have totally lost me now.
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Apr 25 2014, 3:33am
Post #43 of 51
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Bit of an inside joke... Apologies.
Back when I first started posting, we were discussing the Sil chapter on Turin. In that discussion, we brought up the point about how many counter-intuitive (read: stupid/prideful) things he seems to do, and it was posited that the account of his life is very abridged. Then I humourously proposed that if one could find Turin's diary, perhaps one would begin to understand the character more. The preceding sections were from that serio-comic tangent I began.
Apologies for the confusion, but we DO have a lot of fun in the RR. People don't know what they are missing!
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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StevenUmbrello
Bree
Apr 25 2014, 3:36am
Post #44 of 51
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Ok, now you put everything I have read into context. I had to reread the page to try and understand what you two are talking about and I couldn't for the life of me figure it out. It makes a whole lot of sense now, and its quite funny lol
Indeed Turin's pridefulness makes me want to punch something sometimes, because its so easily avoided. But I'm not sure if we can fault him on his character, personality takes a lot for it to change.
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Brethil
Half-elven
Apr 25 2014, 3:46am
Post #45 of 51
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Yes, we have a collective Humorous Tangentitis here in the RR Steven, in addition to our Rollicking Pun Disease. Its a dangerous business, heading out to post. You never know where you might get swept off to. 
The Third TORn Amateur Symposium kicks off this Sunday, April 13th, in the Reading Room. Come and join us for Tolkien-inspired writings!
**CoH Rem. Just sayin' **
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StevenUmbrello
Bree
Apr 25 2014, 3:51am
Post #46 of 51
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The Leather Library...Philosophy, Great Literature, Pipes and the Finer things in life. Check out the YouTube channel and Blog
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/TheBBCorps
Blog: theleatherlibraryblog.com
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Apr 25 2014, 9:59am
Post #47 of 51
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I've just read Bow and Helm's remarkable essay on Hurin http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=735779#735779
It made me wonder (and wonder I did in reply to Bow and Helm http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=735840#735840) whether Hurin could be seen as the 'control'?
One of those delightful Tolkien questions with no possible final answer (otherwise, what WOULD we talk about after 15 years of this site's existence?)
~~~~~~
"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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elaen32
Gondor
Apr 26 2014, 10:53pm
Post #48 of 51
(626 views)
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Ah, the old question of self- fulfilling prophecies..
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Sorry to be late in responding, I've been away. I really enjoyed reading your essay Steven- and agree with so much in it. Some of Turin's actions seem more random than others and it is very difficult to divide them into those likely to be as a result of a curse, or otherwise. I think the fundamental question here has already been asked- what would have happened to Turin and how different would his actions have been if he had never been aware of the curse? We know if the power of suggestion even in cultures today and this is especially developed in, for example, some African cultures, whereby a person may suffer genuine harm, even death, because they know that a witch- doctor has cursed them. My own feeling is that Turin may have felt he had less to prove and may have acted in a more considered manner if he had been unaware of the curse. In the event, it is not clear whether Morgoths curse works by genuine evil magic or by engendering fear in Turin and others.
Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in April. Happy writing!
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StevenUmbrello
Bree
Apr 26 2014, 11:03pm
Post #49 of 51
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You are very kind, I am glad you enjoyed it. Yes, the power of expectation and suggestions works like a placebo. We have mentioned in the comments that perhaps Morgoth was intelligent enough that he knew his curse may have functioned in such a manner. Although there is no evidence of this, like many other point, but its a worthwhile point to make.
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The Leather Library...Philosophy, Great Literature, Pipes and the Finer things in life. Check out the YouTube channel and Blog
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elaen32
Gondor
Apr 26 2014, 11:06pm
Post #50 of 51
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Hee hee- I had forgotten about this!//
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Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in April. Happy writing!
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