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DaughterofLaketown
Gondor
Apr 22 2014, 10:14pm
Post #1 of 14
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So the question we have all debated
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Is Legolas blonde or not?  
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Eruvandi
Tol Eressea
Apr 23 2014, 3:42pm
Post #2 of 14
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I've only had the chance to read LOTR once, but I don't recall his hair color being directly mentioned. There was that one moment where he's about to shoot the fell beast and his "dark head" is seen (by Frodo?) in profile against the sky, but I interpreted that as meaning that his head was in shadow, not that his hair was dark. It was nighttime after all. Anyone's head would have looked dark in those circumstances.
I was probably being influenced by the fact that I saw the movies first, but the whole time I read LOTR, I pictured Legolas as blonde. Then again, this one time I had a dream about a bunch elves, I dreamed that Legolas was there and he had dark hair, but I think that was because of this picture on Wikipedia where someone did a portrait of him with dark hair.
"But there’s empty cross, there’s an empty tomb
Fire and wind now sweeping in this tiny upper room
There’s a hungry world, there’s a risen King
Unlock the doors, what reason more could we ever need?
So sing with me, I dare you to
Because there’s an empty cross; there’s an empty tomb"
~Empty (Disciples)-sung by Dan Haseltine and Matt Hammitt
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Apr 23 2014, 3:44pm
Post #3 of 14
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Hairy Potter and the Golden Wig
[In reply to]
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From a film perspective... sort of
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Apr 23 2014, 4:25pm
Post #4 of 14
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... although it isn't 'why not' as in 'he can't be [golden haired]' of course, it's more of why I think 'why not'... ahem... or something that makes sense. Anyway in the following points, I'll get bookish and pedantic and try to slant things toward my opinion of a dark-haired Legolas.
Just in case it wasn't obvious
A] Appendix F: the Eldar are sweepingly described as dark-haired except the golden house of Finarfin [includes Galadriel in The Lord of the Rings for example].
B] Appendix F: The Sindar are Eldar
B1] Thranduil is Sindarin
B2] Ahem. Thranduil is golden haired*
B3] Ahem. Appendix F**
C] Exceptions other than Finarfin's House must be allowed however. Glorfindel is not said [in The Lord of the Rings itself] to be of the House of Finarfin necessarily, and Thranduil is certainly not. Even Celeborn I would not describe as dark-haired, but in any case Thranduil is a Sinda.
C1] Exceptions yes, but that's very general: if someone is not described, shouldn't they fall into the sweeping description unless or until I know otherwise?
D] Among the Eldar then, golden or blonde hair would seem to be notable. We readers 'travel' with Legolas much more than any other Elf, if his hair was a notable exception, a relatively unusual colour amoung the Eldar, why isn't it noted?
F] Legolas is a least 'half-eldarin'. His mother's clan isn't known, but should I not go with what I do know, instead of a possibility either way?
Thus [drum roll please]...
I imagine Legolas with dark-hair...
... based on what I know of him [Sindarin/Eldarin, again as far as I know], and based on the sweeping description [dark-haired Eldar] considering that otherwise he is, so far, 'not certainly described' as far as this physical attribute is concerned.
Despite exceptions -- these are possible, but to my mind we can only know the exceptions when told about them -- and despite the exception of his father as an exception too.
So that's why not
__________
*technically Thranduil was golden-haired as the Elven-king of The Hobbit, before he was imagined as the Sindarin father of Legolas and Appendix F was written.
**I cannot agree with the posthumously published 'correction' [by footnote] made to Appendix F concerning this description, in some editions.
Fair warning there
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Eruvandi
Tol Eressea
Apr 23 2014, 5:28pm
Post #5 of 14
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Well said, and I see your point. I myself am still working on my Geek Credit and still have 60 pages of ROTK left until I get to the appendices, so it's interesting to see what they have to say on the topic at hand. I actually find it easy switch back and forth between picturing Legolas as blonde and picturing him with dark hair, like in that dream I mentioned. Hey, maybe he's really a chameleon elf and can change his hair color to go with his environment! Lol!
"But there’s empty cross, there’s an empty tomb
Fire and wind now sweeping in this tiny upper room
There’s a hungry world, there’s a risen King
Unlock the doors, what reason more could we ever need?
So sing with me, I dare you to
Because there’s an empty cross; there’s an empty tomb"
~Empty (Disciples)-sung by Dan Haseltine and Matt Hammitt
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Apr 23 2014, 5:38pm
Post #6 of 14
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Legolas was an Elf
Elves are humanoid
Most Elves were dark-haired
Some Elves were not
Tolkien never said what colour his hair was
No one ever commented on his hair in LotR
My conclusion:
Legolas, as an Elf, had a head with hair, but it was so unremarkable (perhaps he didn't have the right shampoo and conditioner when he left Rivendell? Bloom seems to have been luckier.) that no one mentioned it.
Maybe he took style tips from Radaghast, so no one wanted to remember?
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Darkstone
Immortal
Apr 24 2014, 5:26am
Post #7 of 14
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Since Tolkien never indicated that he tended to shoot himself with his own arrows.
Whereas film Legolas has that whole "The Uruks turn Northeast!" gaffe....blonde...thing.
******************************************
https://www.facebook.com/slatesforsarah
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Glassary
Rivendell
Apr 24 2014, 11:36am
Post #8 of 14
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Only his hairdresser knows for sure
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But in my head Legolas was always pictured with brown hair from the books. Never had any reason to think he wasn't. But since the film adaptation I now see him as blonde. Since Tolkien didn't specify this doesn't bother me .
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Apr 24 2014, 12:19pm
Post #9 of 14
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I myself am still working on my Geek Credit and still have 60 pages of ROTK left until I get to the appendices, so it's interesting to see what they have to say on the topic at hand.
That's good, but I'll warn you in annoying detail about the new footnote appearing now in some editions. In 1955 Tolkien published, in Appendix F, concerning the Eldar: 'They were tall, fair of skin and grey-eyed, though their locks were dark, save in the golden house of Finrod.'
And in The History of Middle-Earth volume 12, Christopher Tolkien explains [my emphasis]:
"In my discussion of this in I.43-4 I pointed out that the words 'They were tall, fair of skin and grey-eyed, though their locks were dark, save in the golden house of Finrod [Finarfin]' were originally written of the Noldor only, and not of all the Eldar, and I objected that 'the Vanyar had golden hair, and it was from Finarfin's Vanyarin mother Indis that he, and Finrod Felagund and Galadriel his children, had their golden hair', finding in the final use of this passage an 'extraordinary perversion of meaning'. But my father carefully remodelled the passage in order to apply it to the Eldar as a whole, and it does indeed seem 'extraordinary' that he should have failed to observe this point.'
And I'll further note that in the 1960s, Tolkien himself revised this passage, as 'Finrod' now became the name of Felagund [instead of Inglor Felagund], and so, ultimately, we have 'Finarfin' here not Finrod -- but Tolkien himself changes nothing else about this passage in the 1960s.
Now however, there is a new footnote here. I'll make it a colour within the following...
... as Hammond and Scull explain [The Lord of the Rings, A Reader’s Companion, Appendix F, hardcover edition page 740-741] ’... In the edition of 2004 a footnote by the present authors were added to p.1137 ('These words describing characters of face and hair in fact applied only to the Noldor: see the Book of the Lost Tales, Part One, p.44’) to explain the distinction, in preference to rewriting Tolkien’s words, within a finely cadenced paragraph."
I am a big fan of Hammond and Scull and admire their work. I certainly agree that no one should rewrite this text, but not only can I not agree that this footnote is necessary, it is, in my opinion, somewhat misleading, as...
A] these words applied 'only' to the Noldor in draft writing before Tolkien himself revised and published the version that describes the Eldar. The footnote is correct in that sense, but why does the reader need to know this, and how can he or she know this is the meaning unless consulting The History of Middle-Earth series -- unless the suggestion is, that is, that the revised passage by Tolkien himself is incorrect as it stands...
... and if so, in my opinion that's a subjective characterization based on the idea that The Lord of the Rings should be corrected in some measure or sense here in order to agree with a description that Tolkien himself never published.
Or if there's another reason I can't think of it anyway -- and I understand that there is an argument there too, but I mean, couldn't one take the position that it's the description of the Vanyar [as Eldar] that needs 'correcting', compared to author-published passages?
B] and if we want to be more accurate due to posthumously pubished descriptions of the Vanyar, then what about accuracy with posthumously published description of the Sindar? Which reads [The War of the Jewels]: 'In general the Sindar appear to have very closely resembled the Exiles, being dark-haired, strong and tall, but lithe. Indeed they could hardly be told apart except by their eyes;...'
So 'dark-haired' [Appendix F] does not 'only' refer to the Noldor in any ultimate sense, as in general it correctly describes the Sindar too, and thus the Eldar of Middle-earth rather, as the Vanyar had departed Middle-earth long, long [long] ago, by Frodo's day.
In my opinion
(This post was edited by Elthir on Apr 24 2014, 12:30pm)
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Eruvandi
Tol Eressea
Apr 24 2014, 3:07pm
Post #10 of 14
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Again, excellent points. I agree that the new footnote doesn't seem necessary at all in light of the information you presented. Thanks for taking the time to explain all of that, btw.
"But there’s empty cross, there’s an empty tomb
Fire and wind now sweeping in this tiny upper room
There’s a hungry world, there’s a risen King
Unlock the doors, what reason more could we ever need?
So sing with me, I dare you to
Because there’s an empty cross; there’s an empty tomb"
~Empty (Disciples)-sung by Dan Haseltine and Matt Hammitt
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Apr 24 2014, 3:17pm
Post #11 of 14
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And to be fair I'll repeat that there's surely an argument for the other side too, and even though I said that...
... I didn't exactly make that argument nonetheless. I mean this is Hammond and Scull, noted Tolkien scholars, and if they made their argument here I'm guessing it would be a good one. Or someone else could make it...
... but so far I still agree with me
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DaughterofLaketown
Gondor
Apr 24 2014, 10:18pm
Post #12 of 14
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Whereas film Legolas has that whole "The Uruks turn Northeast!" gaffe....blonde...thing.
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ElendilTheShort
Gondor
Apr 27 2014, 10:15am
Post #13 of 14
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I thought it was the Noldor not Eldar in general that had dark hair?
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Edit, ok just read Elthir's rather excellent post.
(This post was edited by ElendilTheShort on Apr 27 2014, 10:20am)
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Apr 30 2014, 12:54pm
Post #14 of 14
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Here's another interesting tangent: according to The Lord of the Rings the 'Eldar' are those Elves who passed Over Sea [the name Vanyar is never used in anything Tolkien himself published, as far as I know], plus the Sindar only. Thus not the Silvan Elves of Mirkwood and Lorien for example, nor any Avari.
Thus this too could be seen as 'incorrect' if we compare it to posthumously published writing -- and actually, the 'definition' of Eldar employed for the construced, posthumously published Silmarillion, includes all Elves who took up the original journey, whether or not they passed Over Sea upon this early journey -- in other words, not just the Sindar who had not pased Over Sea.
So even the 'definition' of Eldar in The Lord of the Rings could be footnoted as 'incorrect', in addition to this description of the dark-haired Eldar.
So where do we draw the line? I say we 'imaginatively' correct [as we like, if we like] but leave Tolkien's published wording as he left it. Of course, some mistakes corrected by H&S are a different animal: words that were mistakenly changed by the printers for example, or sentences mistakenly left out and so on... these of course, I agree should be corrected.
(This post was edited by Elthir on Apr 30 2014, 1:03pm)
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Very good argument
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