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How Orcs/Uruks/Goblins become what they are
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Calithilel
Rivendell


Apr 21 2014, 6:06pm

Post #1 of 26 (1427 views)
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How Orcs/Uruks/Goblins become what they are Can't Post

Just a little note before hand. I am not quite sure where I should post this.

The title says it. I know they once was Elves, but a friend of me (who is not that fan of Middle-earth) wonders of how it happens. And I have no idea how to explain it.
Are they tortured till they become it? or is it maybe some magic at work?
For I don´t see how an elf can be tortured enough to become an Orc/Goblin. They must be a lot of work to make it look like the enemy, not to talk about their mind and memories.

If someone has a better answer than what I wrote Smile

"If this is to end in fire, then we will all burn together." - Thorin Oakenshield, Desolation of Smaug

"What does your heart tell you?" - Aragorn, Return of the King

"I´m not a psychopath, I´m a highly functioning sociopath with your number." - Sherlock

"Some people are worth melting for." - Olaf, Frozen


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 21 2014, 7:56pm

Post #2 of 26 (1325 views)
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Morgoth's magics bent and twisted them. [In reply to] Can't Post

First, Tolkien toyed with several origins for Orcs. Originally, he had Morgoth create them, but rejected that idea when he decided that Moroth could not create new life, but only corrupt what already existed. He then went with Elves, corrupted and twisted by Morgoth as the original Orcs; however, Tolkien later second-guessed himself and wrote that maybe Men were bent and twisted to become the first Orcs.

Tolkien never went back and rewrote the early parts of The Silmarillion to reflect the Men-as-Orcs explanation, so we might be able to adopt the view that Elves were the very first Orcs, but Men were added to the mixture at a later date.

We know that, much later, Sauron developed the elite Uruk-hai, while Saruman experimented with Men/Orc hybrids to make his Half-orc servants (Saruman's swarthy, slant-eyed thugs who nicknamed him Sharkey). Jackson's films conflate the Uruks and the Half-orcs.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Cillendor
Lorien


Apr 22 2014, 12:24am

Post #3 of 26 (1297 views)
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I've read elsewhere [In reply to] Can't Post

that Azog's design in The Hobbit trilogy could be seen as a more Elvish Orc. The idea goes that theoretically, Orcs (at least those of Elvish origin) should be immortal. Natural death is a gift given to Men by Eru. So unless they are killed, Orcs derived of Elvish stock should retain their immortality.

Now I doubt that any would live for very long, given their violent nature. But if one did survive for thousands of years since the first age, one might expect them to look a bit more Elvish—like Azog.

Over time, the influence of their evil and their lifestyle choices would change their appearance to the distorted, hunched over look. The Goblins look especially decrepit, but their unusual form is similar to Gollum's: living underground for so long has caused several adaptations to arise, such as pale skin, a hunched posture, and especially their big eyes. They still retain their Elvish blood, but they are essentially a separate species at this point.


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Apr 22 2014, 3:29am

Post #4 of 26 (1280 views)
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Gorbag and Shagrat [In reply to] Can't Post

...in their conversation in Shelob's cave mentioned The Great Siege (presumably the Last Alliance), which was a long time ago. Many of us have speculated whether it's possible for them to remember it, which would indicate Elvish heritage, or just heard history/legend at some point.








Calithilel
Rivendell


Apr 22 2014, 5:59pm

Post #5 of 26 (1261 views)
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But [In reply to] Can't Post

If Morgoth´s magic bent and twisted them, Sauron also had the same power to do so? But it must be some Orcs/Goblins who could turn Elves/Men into Orcs and Goblins. Or did Sauron do everything by himself?

His servants did the torture thing, and Sauron just used some magic here and there and sent them off into the world.

Sorry if this is difficult or idiotic questions Crazy

"If this is to end in fire, then we will all burn together." - Thorin Oakenshield, Desolation of Smaug

"What does your heart tell you?" - Aragorn, Return of the King

"I´m not a psychopath, I´m a highly functioning sociopath with your number." - Sherlock

"Some people are worth melting for." - Olaf, Frozen


Calithilel
Rivendell


Apr 22 2014, 6:03pm

Post #6 of 26 (1257 views)
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Immortal Orcs o.o [In reply to] Can't Post

I never thought about that, but if it is so too, then I would expect the orcs that lived so long would look more like Azog or the old drawings of Bolg. I mean like stronger and smarter xD then I mean about Orcs, not Goblins (like those in the Hobbit) Goblins are Goblins :P

I don´t remember the conversation in Shelob´s lair, will look it up when i return home where my Tolkien books are waiting for me :)

"If this is to end in fire, then we will all burn together." - Thorin Oakenshield, Desolation of Smaug

"What does your heart tell you?" - Aragorn, Return of the King

"I´m not a psychopath, I´m a highly functioning sociopath with your number." - Sherlock

"Some people are worth melting for." - Olaf, Frozen

(This post was edited by Calithilel on Apr 22 2014, 6:08pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 22 2014, 6:25pm

Post #7 of 26 (1263 views)
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Morgoth must have been much more powerful than Sauron [In reply to] Can't Post

Sauron was able to refine and improve upon Morgoth's work (the Uruk-hai and Olog-hai); but he did not demonstrate the ability to duplicate it. He did share the necromatic abiltiy to summon spirits such as the Wights that were sent from Angmar to spread terror through Eriador, but Sauron's real talent seems to have been in the creation of made things--specifically the Rings of Power.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Elthir
Grey Havens

Apr 22 2014, 7:35pm

Post #8 of 26 (1245 views)
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Tolkien asked himself... [In reply to] Can't Post

... if Orcs were immortal in the Elvish sense. He actually asks himself this in a text. After musing about the question of heritability and other things, Tolkien notes...

'In that case Elves, as a source, are very unlikely. And are orcs 'immortal' in the Elvish sense? Or Trolls?'
JRRT, text VIII, Morgoth's Ring

But by the end of this text Tolkien has concluded that the majority of Orcs are perverted beasts, with possibly some Elves in the mix, explaining...

'It remains therefore terribly possible there was an Elvish strain in orcs. These may have even been mated with beasts (sterile!) -- and later Men. Their life span would be diminished. And dying they would go to Mandos and be held in prison until the end.'

But then Tolkien adds a passage in which he simply says orcs are beasts! So one wonders if he had maybe rejected the idea of an Elvish strain here, or was just not mentioning it again due to brevity.

And that's not the only text about Orcs in any case, as in text X we have Orcs made from Men [the chronology was altered to allow this], and the Orcs were said to be short-lived compared with the life span of Men of higher race, such as the Edain. But...

'This last point was not well understood on the Elder Days. For Morgoth had many servants, the oldest and most potent of whom were immortal, belonging indeed in their beginning to the Maiar; and these spirits like their Master could take on visible forms. Those whose business it was to direct the Orcs often took Orkish shapes, through they were greater and more terrible. Thus it was that the histories speak of Great Orcs or Orc-captains who were not slain, and who reappeared in battle through years far longer than the span of the lives of Men.' JRRT, text X, Myths Transformed, Morgoth's Ring

In my opinion the Maiar-orcs were never supposed to be the main source of Orcs in any case, but they could explain some exceptionally powerful, or exceptionally long lived orcs.


Elthir
Grey Havens

Apr 22 2014, 7:50pm

Post #9 of 26 (1231 views)
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Elsewhere [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
(...) Over time, the influence of their evil and their lifestyle choices would change their appearance to the distorted, hunched over look. The Goblins look especially decrepit, but their unusual form is similar to Gollum's: living underground for so long has caused several adaptations to arise, such as pale skin, a hunched posture, and especially their big eyes. They still retain their Elvish blood, but they are essentially a separate species at this point.




You mention the film and Azog's look but it's not wholly clear if you are suggesting that the filmmakers as basing their idea on something in the books -- and thus offerring the noted idea in this forum as a possible book based answer


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Apr 23 2014, 7:58am

Post #10 of 26 (1227 views)
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Gorbag speaking: [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
‘You may well put your thinking cap on, if you’ve got one. It’s no laughing matter. No one, no one has ever stuck a pin in Shelob before, as you should know well enough. There’s no grief in that; but think-there’s someone loose hereabouts as is more dangerous than any other damned rebel that ever walked since the bad old times, since the Great Siege. Something has slipped.’

(emphasis mine)








Elthir
Grey Havens

Apr 23 2014, 12:15pm

Post #11 of 26 (1219 views)
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references to the past [In reply to] Can't Post

An external issue here is that during the writing of The Lord of the Rings, or much of it, I think it's probable [or arguable] that Tolkien did not imagine Orcs as hailing from corrupted Elves -- Frodo's opinion that evil can only mock, not make, might seem to suggest otherwise, admittedly -- but in any event the idea in place both before, and immediately after, the writing of The Lord of the Rings...

... was that Morgoth made goblins, and seemingly out of stone and hatred [not made from Elves, Men, nor beasts].

Treebeard's comment that Orcs were made in mockery of Elves is not necessarily instructive here, since a mockery of Elves can easily be made out of something other than Elves -- and this is even illustrated in Tolkien's own tales, where the Orcs are noted as mockeries of Elves in a phase when they were not made from Elves.

So how long did they live in this conception with Morgoth as maker? John Rateliff looks at the goblins of George MacDonald, given Tolkien's stated influence here. Rateliff notes [The History of The Hobbit]: 'On one point, it's difficult to tell if Tolkien and MacDonald are in agreement or not. MacDonald's goblins are very long-lived (in the comic scene already referred to, the goblin-father remarks condescendingly to one goblin-child that 'You were only fifty last month' -- The Princess and the Goblin, chapter 8). The same may be true of Tolkien's goblins.'

But yet Rateliff can't be certain about that, and obviously Tolkien's goblins need not echo MacDonald's in all respects [note the difference in goblin feet for example]. And that said, MacDonald's goblins were originally humans who withdrew below ground, so I'm not sure why they should live notably longer than humans -- despite this statement to the goblin-child, which does seem suggestive, I admit.

Anyway my point here is to simply note that we might have long-lived goblins even without Elvish heritage. Not that you said otherwise Elizabeth. And of course soon enough after The Lord of the Rings [the story] is 'finished' but not yet published, Tolkien will make the great shift more certainly: evil cannot create, and the Wise of Eressea believe Morgoth has twisted Elves into orcs.

And later again, Tolkien himself will challenge the Elvish idea on certain grounds, and start considering multiple options.


I believe JRRT's latest idea [most likely latest, as this is rather a complicated matter] takes the question of 'immortality' out for most orcs, as I think the idea is: Elves were said to be made from Men [with the internal chronology altered to allow this], plus some great 'immortal' orcs from the ranks of the Maiar.


(This post was edited by Elthir on Apr 23 2014, 12:29pm)


Elthir
Grey Havens

Apr 23 2014, 12:35pm

Post #12 of 26 (1216 views)
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Elves from what? [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
... as I think the idea is: Elves were said to be made from Men [with the internal chronology altered to allow this], plus some great 'immortal' orcs from the ranks of the Maiar.



Drat! I meant Orcs made from Men, not Elves.

'Edit time limit' got me again. And got me good this time LOL! Smile


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 23 2014, 1:48pm

Post #13 of 26 (1205 views)
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I wonder why it was such a tortuous issue for Tolkien? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for this analysis, Elthir .

Yes, it sounds like once Tolkien had (a) asked the question and (b) decided that orcs had to be corrupted from some other previously living thing, he'd set himself some kind of dilemma that he was struggling with.

maybe it's this:


Quote
I've always thought, particularly since Tolkien was in a real war, that he invented orcs because he needed an enemy that could be unequivocally evil and not very person-like so that his heroes could be unequivocally right to fight and kill them. The closest encounter a hobbit (the species of protagonist with whom the reader can most closely identify) has with a human enemy is the scene in Ithillien when a dead warrior from the south prompts Frodo to wonder about him as a person, why he left home, and if he would have preferred to stay there. (Apologies -- my book is in another state or I would give the exact quote!) That passage seemed so achingly personal to me, I wondered if it was an echo of Tolkien's own emotions during WWI. While I don't believe LOTR is an allegory of either world war, it seems impossible that somebody who experienced war could keep his thoughts about it from shaping the way he invented a war in his fiction. No real war can be satisfactory if it involves human enemies because most humans (even if they are required/persuaded to follow an evil leader, such as Hitler) are not 100% evil. Tolkien's sympathy for Gollum -- who had a tiny but real chance at redemption & joining the good guys -- and this nameless warrior from the south indicates that, to him, the concept of war that goes "They may not be totally evil but we have to fight them anyway because they are attacking us" is a very troubling one. I think Tolkien's love of old poems and sagas depicting glorious warfare was at odds with his compassion for real people. So -- much as he did when, unsatisfied with the "moving" of Birnam Wood in MacBeth, he created Ents -- I think Tolkien's dissatisfaction with real warfare prompted him to make a world in which glorious fighting was actually possible.

In that case, thinking too hard about orc families with wives and children would invalidate their purpose. I think biological reproduction must be happening, but that the thought of orc babies would have been unbearable to an author who positioned their species as an enemy whom it is always acceptable to kill. No people in Tolkien's world start evil, even if they become very evil later by their own choices; the fact that orcs are ruined elves allows that rule to still apply: they started out good but were pushed past the point where they could possibly be redeemed. Innocent orc babies who've never hurt anybody (even if they grow up to do so) would upset the concept, so that's why I think Tolkien didn't want to think about them.

Gwenhwyfar - http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=559593#559593


~~~~~~

"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Elthir
Grey Havens

Apr 23 2014, 2:45pm

Post #14 of 26 (1209 views)
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Sauron orc-maker? [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
But it must be some Orcs/Goblins who could turn Elves/Men into Orcs and Goblins. Or did Sauron do everything by himself?



At the moment I'm a bit unclear [from the following] if Tolkien meant that Sauron used his power to make the first orcs, or if the 'accomplishment' referred to below is successfuly breeding the orcs rather, that is, doing it well enough so as to ultimately provide armies of orcs, which also served to better enhance the issue of 'mockery' by numbers. In Text X [Orcs bred from Men, some Maiar-orcs as well], Myths Transformed, Tolkien writes:



Quote

'We may assume, then, that the idea of breeding the Orcs came from Melkor, not at first so much for the provision of servants or the infantry of his wars of destruction, as for the defilement of the Children and the blasphemous mockery of the designs of Eru. The details of the accomplishment of this wickedness were, however, left mainly to the subtleties of Sauron. In that case the conception in mind of the orcs may go far back into the night of Melkor's thought, though the beginning of their actual breeding must await the awakening of Men.

When Melkor was made captive, Sauron escaped and lay hid in Middle-earth; and it can in this way be understood how the breeding of orcs (no doubt already begun) went on with increasing speed during the Age when the Noldor dwelt in Aman; so that when they returned to Middle-earth they found it already infested with this plague...'

JRRT, Text X, Myths Transformed, Morgoth's Ring




Always keeping in mind that there was no finished and no publishd Silmarillion from Tolkien's perspective, JRRT was still free to adjust his chronology to make Orcs from Men a possibility. What he had published in Appendix F was: 'The Orcs were first bred by the Dark Power of the North in the Elder Days.' Which isn't much, and even if the 'Dark Power' is Morgoth more specifically, I still think that much doesn't necessarily contradict Text X. Sauron is working for the Dark Power in any case, and thus the breeding still can be said to be due to the will of Morgoth anyway, and so the Orcs are essentially bred 'by' him even if Sauron is doing a lot of the work...

... but there is also Treebeard's memory to consider, that the Orcs first appeared in a time period he calls the 'Great Darkness' [a confusing enough time period in itself, if we look at it in more detail]. Treebeard might not know how Orcs were created, but Tolkien might have to give his memory some consideration with respect to when the Orcs first appeared.

But that said, we could say something similar about Text X itself: it was never published by its author and Tolkien would not be bound to it. There is even a later text in which the chronology -- with respect to when great numbers of Orcs existed compared to Morgoth's capture in Aman -- given in Text X appears to have been revised yet again!

It's not unconfusing sometimes Wink

And later


In any case in the Third Age Sauron could simply breed orcs [as in have already existing orcs breed] when he wanted more, or breed a better, generally larger kind [selective breeding being a possibility here], like the Uruks that first appeared out of Mordor.

Saruman did a different thing I think: he not only starting employing orcs [with man-flesh as seeming payment, at least in part] but took Orcs and bred them with Men, producing Half-orcs. He also, in my opinion, trained his orcs well, including training them to better resist the Sun...

... thus while he had less numbers than Sauron, Saruman had well trained orcs who naturally boasted about Sun-tolerance, along with goblin-faced, man-high half-orcs [who also didn't mind the Sun], as well as some half-orcs who could be employed as spies, these only reminding of goblins in some measure, but not so much as to be certainly obvious.

Some think Saruman's Uruk-hai have mannish blood and that that's why they boast about running under the Sun. I don't think they have mannish blood myself, and so they are different from the Half-orcs...

... but just to note that that matter has been discussed before Smile


Elthir
Grey Havens

Apr 23 2014, 3:09pm

Post #15 of 26 (1184 views)
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Some good points there [In reply to] Can't Post

It's difficult to know, but certainly there were many decades in which the orcs were simply made -- out of underground heats and slime, or out of stone and hatred [or however Melkor did it in the early versions] -- and so before Tolkien changed his mind arguably they could be more easily killed as mere 'evil makings'...

I note the 'game' of Legolas and Gimli: again arguably written when Orcs were still 'simply' the makings of a Dark Lord, not corruptions of the already existing Children of Iluvatar, or beasts.


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Apr 23 2014, 3:21pm

Post #16 of 26 (1176 views)
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It is a pickle, and no mistake! [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that he was trying to strike a balance between limiting Evil's powers to be less than Good--showing Evil really had no chance to be equal to Good-- and making servants of Evil that were not too complex-- so that we have no doubt they were evil. Then the issue of redemption came in and muddied the water even more. Tolkien did not believe in absolute evil, so here must be a part of Good (maybe only corrupted Good) in orcs.

So he needed naturally occurring evil beasts, that were not always bad, but through choice of their own, but still had possibility for redemption and were part of the original creation of a Good deity. Not the kind of thing you can find at the local unemployment center.

I like to think that the orcs played different roles. You had the really badly messed up ones to do the dirty work and fight, the mindless machine-like ones to be killed, the talkative/introspective ones to demonstrate the possibility of redemption and consciousness, and the strange drifter types whose past is lost in antiquity to play the role of the ancestors of the race.

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Elthir
Grey Havens

Apr 23 2014, 3:37pm

Post #17 of 26 (1171 views)
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Good points as well... [In reply to] Can't Post

... Rembrethil. Wait... Rembrethil?

Why did I think it was 'Remembrethil' until just now? It's obviously not, once I write both names! Hmm Cool


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Apr 23 2014, 3:47pm

Post #18 of 26 (1164 views)
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No worries! [In reply to] Can't Post

People mess up my name in RL too, so I'm not to sensitive to it.

E.g. I now respond to the names Bob, Frank, and Joe at work, as well as my real name. (It's nothing remotely close to any of those names) Though, most people just yell 'Hey! You!'Cool

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Calithilel
Rivendell


Apr 23 2014, 7:31pm

Post #19 of 26 (1160 views)
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Thanks folks [In reply to] Can't Post

Realle appreciate everything that´s been said, and i believe i got my questions answered :)

Heart

"If this is to end in fire, then we will all burn together." - Thorin Oakenshield, Desolation of Smaug

"What does your heart tell you?" - Aragorn, Return of the King

"I´m not a psychopath, I´m a highly functioning sociopath with your number." - Sherlock

"Some people are worth melting for." - Olaf, Frozen


Elthir
Grey Havens

Apr 24 2014, 2:56pm

Post #20 of 26 (1149 views)
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Azog the goblin [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry to annoy but the title of the thread might imply that there is a distinction between an orc and a goblin, but that's a movie thing, and that's why I asked about a post about Azog, a post which includes a section about goblins too. Azog, for example, is called both an orc and a goblin in passages published by JRRT: according to The Lord of the Rings, Appendix A he is a: 'great Orc with a huge iron-clad head' Of Durin's Folk. And in The Hobbit: 'Azog the Goblin' An Unexpected Party.

That's [ultimately] because there's no distinction between these terms. Some think size, or where they live [in caves or wherever] is a factor, but even Saruman's larger uruks are referred to as 'goblin-soldiers' in The Lord of the Rings.

In a sense there is no distinction 'of being' between an orc and an uruk either [I mean they are both goblins, if using an English term], but there is a distinction in that an uruk is a usually bigger, better trained type of goblin.

Terminology-wise: the distinction is between uruk and snaga.


I know it's an old 'debate' to toss in, and arguably pedantic, but what the heck: I once took the time to look up every instance of the word 'goblin' in [the 12 volume] The History of Middle-Earth series, so I gotta do something with these findings and my opinions of them.

Wink


(This post was edited by Elthir on Apr 24 2014, 3:06pm)


Elthir
Grey Havens

Apr 24 2014, 7:53pm

Post #21 of 26 (1110 views)
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musical orcs? [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
So he needed naturally occurring evil beasts, that were not always bad, but through choice of their own, but still had possibility for redemption and were part of the original creation of a Good deity. Not the kind of thing you can find at the local unemployment center.



Considering this, what do you think of the 'Orcs arising from musical discord' theory -- something that JRRT at least entertains [at one point] in one of his essays, although the idea seems not always noted in orc-threads.


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Apr 25 2014, 1:10am

Post #22 of 26 (1101 views)
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Hmmm... [In reply to] Can't Post

At first thought, I think it a bit strange, but I will not dismiss it altogether. I definitely have to think on it some more.

If JRRT had chosen that answer as the final solution, perhaps I'd be more swayed by it, but then again this is the same guy who entertained the idea that the protagonist of The Hobbit, at one point, was named Bingo!!Crazy

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Meneldor
Valinor


Apr 25 2014, 3:20am

Post #23 of 26 (1098 views)
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B I N G O, B I N G O [In reply to] Can't Post

and Bingo was his name-o!


They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters; These see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep.


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Apr 25 2014, 3:36am

Post #24 of 26 (1097 views)
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Oh, Meneldor, I do love your contributions!! [In reply to] Can't Post

You have me in stitches on a semi-regular basis!Laugh

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Meneldor
Valinor


Apr 25 2014, 3:39am

Post #25 of 26 (1090 views)
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Take my orc! [In reply to] Can't Post

Please!!!


They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters; These see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep.

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