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NecromancerRising
Gondor
Apr 20 2014, 10:24pm
Post #27 of 57
(810 views)
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"Obsession and narrow-mindness is the trend of the 2000's"
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NecromancerRising
Gondor
Apr 20 2014, 10:28pm
Post #28 of 57
(804 views)
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Glorfindela wrote:"I think I have now become bored with the 'discussion' about a character that I find both boring and predictable…"
Thank God.
"Obsession and narrow-mindness is the trend of the 2000's"
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patrickk
Rohan
Apr 21 2014, 2:02am
Post #29 of 57
(789 views)
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"Unfortunately for them, this strategy backfired".
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Glorofindela, not sure where you get this from as the Box office drop between AUJ and DOS is 5% ($1b-$950m), pretty well all from the US. A big drop in the US (~20%) - weather may have had an effect - and a big jump in China (~40%); while Europe held steady or slightly up as was Asia. The big shift is the drop in proportion of income from US and Canada 30% to 27%. So hard to argue a backfire, as the movie by the numbers is well and truly aimed at the global audience, where it seemed to have worked very well being the mdidle installment in a trilogy. I suspect PJ et al all hope more other their movies 'backfire' as much as DOS did.
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Apr 21 2014, 11:37am
Post #30 of 57
(736 views)
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I would say that the strategy did backfire. It seems to me that the film-makers were hoping to achieve much BETTER sales than those for AUJ, as did TTT following FotR. Meanwhile the reverse happened, by quite a margin.
I know some people blame sundry things for this, e.g. the weather, but I think the fall in sales was due simply to the loss of the 'Tolkienesque' heart of the story in DoS, achieved, for example, by adding an unnecessary cliché romance, and by inserting vacuous, badly done and unneeded comic-book action scenes in the film. The time taken for these moments was used at the expense of canon characters in the book, such as Beorn, as well as Bilbo, Thorin and Gandalf. In my view adding these elements altered the whole character of the film story in a detrimental manner.
I know people who saw AUJ at the cinema many times, but did not see DoS more than once. I'm sure that had an effect on the film's profitability.
Glorofindela, not sure where you get this from as the Box office drop between AUJ and DOS is 5% ($1b-$950m), pretty well all from the US. A big drop in the US (~20%) - weather may have had an effect - and a big jump in China (~40%); while Europe held steady or slightly up as was Asia. The big shift is the drop in proportion of income from US and Canada 30% to 27%. So hard to argue a backfire, as the movie by the numbers is well and truly aimed at the global audience, where it seemed to have worked very well being the mdidle installment in a trilogy. I suspect PJ et al all hope more other their movies 'backfire' as much as DOS did.
(This post was edited by Glorfindela on Apr 21 2014, 11:45am)
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Escapist
Gondor
Apr 21 2014, 12:46pm
Post #31 of 57
(713 views)
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both better and worse (but mostly the same)
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I checked Box Office Mojo and I got closer to 6% different by keeping digits to the millions place (neither of us are giving a formal report here, though - so yeah, ballpark 5% sounds about right - again, these are rough numbers for informal discussion - neither of us spent hours on a formally calculated report here, just speculation and estimates etc.).
I remember from other informal searching that US retail sales have been down by a few percentage points during that time and it seems likely that weather in the US and the UK could have affected those numbers (accounting for about 53 of the roughly 65 million difference). Also, during the DOS run, Marcus Cinemas was running a Tuesday $5 free popcorn deal. I saw the movie just as often but spent about $50 total instead of about $80. A few friends that went ot AUJ didn't come to DOS but a few friends saw DOS more than once with me and AUJ only once. Things like the weather, $5 Tuesdays, and the like are all marginal but the difference we are talking about is, itself, marginal. On the other hand, I wouldn't say the difference in the US and UK numbers were marginal so the weather and $5 Tuesdays and things probably don't account for all of the differences in those countries.
Critical ratings were up and sales were up in a bunch of countries around the world including Russia, China, Thailand, Malaysia, Phillipines and France (I counted about 20 with increased sales).
On the other hand, outside of the US and UK which had major weather crises, sales were down in Italy, Australia, and Japan, Spain and several other countries.
When I look at all of this, my conclusion tends towards:
- Equally positively received by the general audience (aggragate box office sales roughly equal with a few significant increases for sure (China, Russia, France) and a few significant decreases(Australia, Italy, Japan, US, UK, Spain), (would require further testing for actual significance for most other countries - most seemed more or less "the same")
- More positively received by critics at all levels (Rotten Tomatoes)
So I would say that for general audiences, it was right in the middle of the pack beside all the other PJ ME movies but for critics, it was much improved. It looks like some specific target audiences may have gone both up and down, but overall, most stayed the same. I would still say "both better and worse" because there are some countries where it definitely did worse and I can't see an obvious interfering factor (or the possible interfering factors look unlikely to explain / account for the entire difference observed).
If I had more than the several minutes it takes for my coffee to get cold to peel through these numbers real quick to get a rough idea, then I would find it fascinating to look deeper - but alas - no such thing as that much time for this for me ...
If all the world's a stage then who's writing the script?
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Name
Rohan
Apr 21 2014, 2:26pm
Post #32 of 57
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Weather did play a huge role. I remember here in the North-eastern US people weren't really leaving their houses for that entire weekend. That's including major cities like NY, Philladelphia, Pitsburgh, and Boston. So I can imagine a whole lot of regular people not bothering to go see DoS.
Then you have to add in the fact that many critics butchered AUJ alive, quite unfairly IMO.
So yeah, I'm pretty surprised DoS did as well as it did.
And with the more positive reviews of DoS, and hopefully no major weather disasters next year, I'm guessing TABA will be pulling over $1 billion.
How many Tolkien fans does it take to change a light bulb?
"Change? Oh my god, what do you mean change?! Never, never, never......"
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Imladris18
Lorien
Apr 21 2014, 2:57pm
Post #33 of 57
(693 views)
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I would say that the strategy did backfire. It seems to me that the film-makers were hoping to achieve much BETTER sales than those for AUJ, as did TTT following FotR. Meanwhile the reverse happened, by quite a margin.
I know some people blame sundry things for this, e.g. the weather, but I think the fall in sales was due simply to the loss of the 'Tolkienesque' heart of the story in DoS, achieved, for example, by adding an unnecessary cliché romance, and by inserting vacuous, badly done and unneeded comic-book action scenes in the film. The time taken for these moments was used at the expense of canon characters in the book, such as Beorn, as well as Bilbo, Thorin and Gandalf. In my view adding these elements altered the whole character of the film story in a detrimental manner.
I know people who saw AUJ at the cinema many times, but did not see DoS more than once. I'm sure that had an effect on the film's profitability.
1. It is hardly a romance.
2. I thought the action scenes were very well done (could have admittedly gone without some of the Smaug-chase antics at the end, but you seem to be focusing your disdain on any action involving elves). What would you consider a good action scene?
(This post was edited by Imladris18 on Apr 21 2014, 2:58pm)
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Apr 21 2014, 3:01pm
Post #34 of 57
(695 views)
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AUJ had very poor 'critics' ' reviews that audiences frequently disagreed with.
DoS had better 'critics'' reviews that many audiences disagreed with.
I don't think what the American 'critics' said had much to do with what audiences think (outside the United States).
Would the weather have had much to do with viewing figures? People in the US could easily have gone to see the film once the weather had improved. I don't really rate this as an excuse for the poor viewing figures in the US, though admittedly I don't live there, so may be wrong…
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Apr 21 2014, 3:10pm
Post #35 of 57
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1. That's what it seems to be, according to what a lot of people think.
2. Many instances of good action scenes: without even thinking much about it, how about Gandalf and the Rohirrim charging down that preposterous hill in TTT, then running into the Orc army; the Black Riders silhouetted against the moonlight and pursuing the Hobbits in FotR; Weathertop scene in FotR; Gandalf and the Balrog in FotR, etc., etc. Those were inspiring scenes. I actually cannot think of really good action scenes in The Hobbit, except perhaps Smaug's initial attack at Erebor, and the battle outside Moria – and Thorin does have an exceptionally impressive fighting style in general (as well as several other assets)…
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Imladris18
Lorien
Apr 21 2014, 3:13pm
Post #36 of 57
(690 views)
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86% audience on RT for DoS vs 83% for AUJ.
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The people that really wanted to see it, definitely would've seen it still, but the more casual moviegoer may have very well elected to wait until a home release due to the weather. It was pretty bad for a good month in some areas.
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Imladris18
Lorien
Apr 21 2014, 3:28pm
Post #37 of 57
(679 views)
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Anyways, seems like you enjoy the more "iconic" scenes. I can respect that. The Hobbit so far has only featured somewhat minor skirmishes that pick up the excitement for a short while and don't really make large "statements." While, I see these scenes as fun, they don't necessarily have the emotional backing that perhaps you need. Also, you enjoy Thorin's scenes because you are invested in his character. That's how I feel with Tauriel/Legolas.
Here's to hoping both of us can walk out of the theater this December having thoroughly enjoyed PJ's final Middle-earth offering.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 21 2014, 3:31pm
Post #38 of 57
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Box-office drop-off is normal with sequels.
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Historically, sequels tend to make less than the original movie. These are actually continuations rather than typical sequels, which might explain way the drop-off for The Desolation of Smaug was fairly slight. I'm expecting There and Back Again to be a stronger entry than the middle film (and superior to An Unexptected Journey as well), and to do significantly better box-office. So I don't think that the day of the prequel is over by a long-shot.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Magpie
Immortal
Apr 21 2014, 3:36pm
Post #39 of 57
(677 views)
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"once the weather had improved."
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For some of us, the weather never improved.
I am not exaggerating. I would put off things like Dentist and Doctor appts, shopping trips, trips to the Post Office, and just general get-out-of-the-house trips for a few days thinking... it's got to be better than _____ (12 inches of snow or -10 below F) in a few days. We might rise to zero... but then the next day I'd have available it would be lots of snow... or very cold again. It went like that for months. I even didn't go into work on some of those -22 below F days. Or days when the roads were so bad the highways were clogged with accidents. In late March, we had a 60 car pile-up on a bridge near me because the melting snow from the night before froze on the road surface. In Northern Minnesota, many houses and farms heat with propane and the cost of propane skyrocketed. Then it became unavailable and people had no means to heat their homes and barns.
And when you get that much snow, the roads don't get plowed all the way to the curb making the streets narrower and narrower with each snowfall. In March, the cities declared one sided parking because emergency vehicles can no longer through the streets. And the potholes become treacherous.
Not only is travel difficult but life in weather like this kind of depresses you. I wouldn't leave the house for a week at a time just because nothing was worth the pain of the cold and the hassle of the streets and having to bundle up with warm coats, heavy gloves, scarves and hats to get to where you wanted to go.
There just never was any relief for many of us till just recently.
Financial Freeze: Winter Woes Cost the Economy $15 Billion
Canadian economy expected to rebound after harsh winter disrupted output, sales and hiring
I think some people think reports like this are exaggerated. I can assure you, they are not.
LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Apr 21 2014, 3:39pm
Post #40 of 57
(666 views)
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Could be you are right, certainly about the 'emotional backing'
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I am not at all emotionally invested in the ninja elves – and I was never emotionally invested in Legolas in the LotR films, either, though I didn't have strong objections to him, and I felt the character had a place there.
Another thing that occurred to me was that some of the scenes I like were at least partly filmed outdoors? They certainly didn't involve people swinging on strings and things (I didn't like the 'Legolas moments' in LotR either, at all, though mercifully they were brief).
Anyways, seems like you enjoy the more "iconic" scenes. I can respect that. The Hobbit so far has only featured somewhat minor skirmishes that pick up the excitement for a short while and don't really make large "statements." While, I see these scenes as fun, they don't necessarily have the emotional backing that perhaps you need. Also, you enjoy Thorin's scenes because you are invested in his character. That's how I feel with Tauriel/Legolas.
Here's to hoping both of us can walk out of the theater this December having thoroughly enjoyed PJ's final Middle-earth offering.
(This post was edited by Glorfindela on Apr 21 2014, 3:40pm)
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Apr 21 2014, 3:43pm
Post #41 of 57
(662 views)
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Sounds horrible (and interesting)!
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In London the wind and rain were really severe, but not for months. Various parts of south-east England were flooded. However, the situation was quite localized, and I don't think it would have affected viewing figures for films that much.
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Name
Rohan
Apr 21 2014, 3:48pm
Post #42 of 57
(658 views)
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The weather was pretty horrible for a pretty long stretch there in December. I went to see the movie about a week after the release, and it was sleeting/snowing that Saturday. Then I saw it again a couple weeks later, and once again it was snowing. You get these conditions in the US, especially major cities, and there is going to be a drop in profits. Cause' let's face it, a lot of people are lazy and will wait to see a movie they're not really set on seeing in-theater.
Lol, as I was writing this Magpie gave us a much more accurate description of the weather. Brings back cold memories. 
How many Tolkien fans does it take to change a light bulb?
"Change? Oh my god, what do you mean change?! Never, never, never......"
(This post was edited by Name on Apr 21 2014, 3:52pm)
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Magpie
Immortal
Apr 21 2014, 4:23pm
Post #43 of 57
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in Minnesota, the word 'interesting' has a how special definition.
It's what people say when they think something is really odd or weird but it wouldn't be nice to say so.
"Well, that's interesting." ....
say it with a Minnesota accent
And that's what a Minnesotan might say about out weather. "Well that's interesting."
Honest, after almost 35 years of living here, my husband and I looked at each other this winter and kind of said, "What are we doing here?"
LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide
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Imladris18
Lorien
Apr 21 2014, 4:39pm
Post #44 of 57
(636 views)
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Can confirm similar stories here.
*shudder* The potholes are still swallowing cars whole to this day.
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Apr 21 2014, 4:42pm
Post #45 of 57
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That definition is also used in Britain – it can cover a lot of things.
'That is an interesting way of seeing things.' (To politely say that you disagree with something someone is saying.)
in Minnesota, the word 'interesting' has a how special definition.
It's what people say when they think something is really odd or weird but it wouldn't be nice to say so.
"Well, that's interesting." ....
say it with a Minnesota accent
And that's what a Minnesotan might say about out weather. "Well that's interesting."
Honest, after almost 35 years of living here, my husband and I looked at each other this winter and kind of said, "What are we doing here?"
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FrogmortonJustice65
Lorien
Apr 21 2014, 6:56pm
Post #47 of 57
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I think people are too hard on Legolas around here.
I rewatched FOTR and TTT this weekend, and was impressed by Bloom. He actually channels Legolas of the book very well -- his character is very observant and insightful (when he comments on his surroundings, as he frequently does) all while maintaining an elvish other-worldliness in a certain way. His chemistry with Aragorn/Gimli is great.
Legolas of DoS is also quite good. I think the criticism of Bloom's appearance is overstated. Of course he no longer has the baby face he had while doing Legolas 10 years, but he still looks quite good. Legolas of DoS is more *bratty* -- (as he was from time to time in LOTR, like in the argument with Aragorn in TTT and some arguments with Gimli in FOTR), but thats the point. Legolas is an antagonist for part of the Hobbit, you aren't supposed to like him right off the bat -- I have a feeling his character will be made more sympathetic in TABA, as he transitions towards becoming the fiercely loyal companion we know in LOTR. He hardly ruined the character for all time...
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entmaiden
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Apr 21 2014, 10:08pm
Post #48 of 57
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Travel was dangerous, and going outside was just not fun. It wasn't just movies - I only shopped for essentials, like food, all winter. The weather was great for my finances, but not the local economy. 
I know there have been news reports that spending went down all over the US because we had such bad weather. The weather was especially bad in the eastern half of the country, which is where the majority of the population lives. The only part of the country that had "normal" weather was the west coast - Los Angeles, San Francisco, Seattle and Portland.
For myself, there were several times I wanted to see DOS, but I didn't go because the temperature was below 0F/-18C, or it was snowing so heavily that no one was out.
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tsmith675
Gondor
Apr 21 2014, 10:39pm
Post #49 of 57
(556 views)
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There will always be prequels, sequels, reboots, etc.
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That'll never change, I can guarantee you that.
Our destiny lies above us.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Apr 21 2014, 11:25pm
Post #50 of 57
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Yep, our roads are still trashed, and where I am doesn't even begin to compare to other areas. 
Potholes that look like that mining pit Thorin jumped into in DOS - worse at night when you are driving along and *BLAM*
"Richard Armitage’s performance has been one of the best things about the new trilogy, making you believe that a hairy dwarf, so often the comedy element of the LOTR films, can be a heroic, tortured, and dangerous badass." - Den of Geek, The Hobbit: There & Back Again, 7 Apr 2014 - 07:07
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