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simplyaven
Grey Havens
Apr 20 2014, 12:29pm
Post #51 of 56
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When I say "we" I mean nations, Rembrethil, not me and you personally, nothing to do with backgrounds, sorry I didn't clarify. :) In many countries all this "politically correct" is inexistent and we speak what we think.  Here I am not allowed to comment on such things, where I come from if a man doesn't give his seat on the bus to a woman, especially if she is pregnant or carrying bags or older , even if by little, people on the bus start booing. It's unacceptable. And many other things are. Here I am expected to hold the door open to any young man in the building who comes.  Manners in restaurants are not written on the menu but I've never heard anyone burping or farting...  Sorry, just to illustrate. Then, Japan, for example, is also very challenging and very manners obliged. Probably there are other countries with even stricter rules but I don't know that.
In a general manner of speaking, I would think that the 'protocol', if thought of as an organised system, would be subject to entropic degradation over time. By adhering to 'protocol' so different than the norm, I think the tendency, over time, would be to follow it less rigidly or abandon inconvenient parts. I admit it, I'm lazy at heart, so I might be projecting myself onto others, but I think that most people like to make things easier.
Firt, it depends on what the "norm" is where you live or where you grow up. Since I already said that the norm in my home country and in my favorite countries (where I'd move if I have a chance) is different from here and from the USA as I've seen it, then following certain protocol in a family circle or circle of friends is not difficult. On the contrary, it's a tradition we like because it's part of our identity. Many close circles have their own protocol.
As about those who in your surroundings behave rude but learned from the same people, are they your family? If not, they learned from others, no? Or yo mean you grew up in the same neighbourhood, attended the same school, etc? I don't know. From my point of view, parenting here, for example, is so loose already and kids are so much left to "express their true personalities" that at the age of 10 they are totally out of control. I grew up in a stricter environment and at 6 knew how to behave at the table perfectly well. My son who grows up here knows at home and behaves like a pig outside and especially at school. But we were also grounded often and in general were brought up with more strict rules.
Because you asked about rudeness and how it's judged, some time ago I was at a quite expensive restaurant here, known for its chocolate bar. A while after we had given our orders a well known artistic persona entered, sat at a table, dressed like a ... beggar or something, not having had shower recently judging by the light smell or just had a tough night somewhere, took off his shoes, and stretched his feet on the nearby chair. If everyone around agreed it's disgusting? I think so judging by faces. If anyone did anything? No. He's so rich that he can buy the whole place with the waiters inside. I left. In my country this can not happen. To avoid a scandal, he would have been asked at the door to obbey the dress code but I doubt if he was raised where I was he would even think of entering in this attire. It's just part of the our culture, these codes of behaviour. Of course, we also have all these persons who are rebelling and playing the "ddifferent" note. But since the society on general is far less willing to accept it, they are quieter and overall don't have the stage often.
Is the latter sentence presenting a counter-argument to your assertion that it is socially acceptable for your uncle to act the way in which he does? Is it an attempt to introduce a broader scope by showing what is acceptable in one place might not be in another? O rhave I said somwthing that led you to infer that the cases you have presented are not acceptable in my society? Again, I apologise for possibly being thick...
Now I don't understand. LOL Can you explain? I just gave an example of a behaviour which is normal, expected where I come from. Not even touching on backgrounds because it's the norm, pretty much for every man. Here one can hear that he is assuming the woman is weak and he has no right to do so.
By the way, I managed to find the term about people being allowed by the system to prosper beyond their family background: upward mobility which consists of a few different category. I Googled it now and the first link I get is this one: http://www.verisi.com/...-upward-mobility.htm It's not the same report I read the other day, I can't remember what the title of it was but that's what I was talking about when saying there is elite today as well. They may not have titles but they don't accept new members easily either.
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Khim
Bree
Apr 20 2014, 3:50pm
Post #52 of 56
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Communication Breakdown: Part Two
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First of all I will reiterate that I consider Chris' essay both a brilliant and an enjoyable read, and I accept his expertise on the matters he discusses.
I guess it was my sarcastic questioning of Medieval honor that started this peculiar thread. It seemed like a good idea at the time because the essay discussed gender roles in society and in fiction, and it seemed heavy on the fiction. I thought I'd remind us that not all views are from lofty heights.
As far as my genuine opinion regarding Medieval honor, I think it was the same as it is today, and as it was in our most ancient past. Eventually we might go back far enough in time to see significant differences in our species' behavior, but in all of recorded history people are people, with fluctuations in culture and technology as a curious veneer. I saw a greeting card at a bagel shop on Good Friday, an elderly women was lifting a glass in toast with this caption, "I'm really not that old...in geological terms." In the few thousand years of recorded history I might accept scientific evidence of changes resulting from dietary chemistry or our reliance on technology, but I still believe we are more like our ancesters than different, and we all share common ancestry.
When it comes to good and bad, I think qualifying and quantifying individuals or societies on a spectrum of behavior is an ambitious endeavor at any time. A very difficult subject to define and expound upon. And one shouldn't condemn a society based on the behavior of its leaders, or conversely by the actions of a few individuals. I have already apologized for my overstatement regarding knights, asking forgiveness for a moments glibness.
Regarding women in ancient Greece:
I wished to provide an example of how stories and myths can be deceiving, or misleading, or simply interpreted incorrectly. I recalled the as yet mystery book, 35 years is a long time to remember such a book, and thought it illustrated that point. My purpose was to suggest caution when analyzing stories, not to generate a discussion specifically about that example. Heck, if you completely dismiss that theory that supports my point as well, consider it a misinterpretation of the myths. I said the theory was debatable, and never suggested I supported it. Children in the U.S. are told that as a boy George Washington cut down a cherry tree. When confronted he admitted his transgression because, "George Washington never told a lie." The story is about a real person, it is also a myth. In a sense it is a lie to encourage kids to tell the truth. It might also be the earliest step in the deification of our founding fathers as part of a national indoctrination campaign. Washington did some extraordinary things, but he was just a man, and a slave owner to boot. I saw the movie 300 once, about the Battle of Thermopylae, I didn't care for it. I thought its depiction of Persians offensive, and the notion that Sparta fought for personal freedom ridiculous. Sparta's slave population might almost qualify colonial America as the land of the free by comparison.
In your long response you intimated that women in ancient Greece had never suffered social oppression. I didn't search for oppressed Greek women, I searched "gender roles Hellenistic Age" and literally the first sentence of the first link described a woman's role at that time as "inferior" to a man's. The "support" I mentioned was not a proof of the theory in question, as I admitted, but confirmation that at least the notion of gender inequality in ancient Greece is being discussed. I would suggest that gender inequality is still going on around the world, so it isn't much of a stretch to suggest in happened before. I have no interest in researching women in ancient Greece in any language, it was really beside the point.
Call me the Devil's Advocate, sowing doubt, but I suggest we should all not only question the stories we read, but the histories as well. All week I have been on vacation with a good friend I have known for 40 years. We knew each other as boys and continue to share each others' homes. Yet we are at odds politically. If you asked us to discuss our nation's history, or tomorrow's headlines, you would get very different responses. Not only is history reported with bias, it is interpreted with it. You wrote "And I know all our mythology and history by heart;" my response is that that doesn't make sense to me. Something subject to subjective interpretation cannot be fully known. No doubt you are very well versed in the subject areas that interest you, and think critcally about them, but knowing all about topics that are endlessly researched and debated seems hubristic to me.
To conclude, the subject of the next essay is Aragorn, the consensus seems to be he is a great guy created by a wonderful author, JRRT. I agree, but I have read that many consider Aragorn a symbol of aristocratic oppression, and Tolkien's obession with bloodlines an overt defense of the Devine Right of Kings. I think they have a strong case, but I chose to ignore it. Whose to say who is right?
I am Khim akin to Mim.
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simplyaven
Grey Havens
Apr 20 2014, 5:27pm
Post #53 of 56
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No, something different but no going further, thank you
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Thank you for the long response but I heard enough (and received enough messages) about my attemts to communicate with you and I wish you all the best in further discussing your views with someone else.
I never stated women in Ancient Greece didn't suffer ANY social oppression, I just pointed at the ACTUAL limitations they were experiencing and at the BIG differences between the different Greek cities, like Sparta and Athens. I'm very sorry you didin't understand my writings.
P.S. I know very well what the topic of the essay is and I didn't start the sub-topic.
P.P.S. I apologize in advance for not responding to you in the future.
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Apr 20 2014, 5:43pm
Post #54 of 56
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Fascinating! Some speculation re dwarf and squire --
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There's a bit of an ongoing debate regarding dwarfs in Arthurian legend, and I wonder if Tolkien might not have been having a little fun with a word as he was wont to do.
Dwarfs appear frequently in Arthurian tales which has lead some to suggest that the term is actually mistranslated from the word for "squire" (or perhaps "serf"/"servant"). I guess the speculation rises from the idea that in Medieval Europe it is unlikely that there would have been so many dwarfs gainfully employed. (Unless they were meant to be of the magical/mythical variety, which honestly, across several tales, doesn't seem to be the case.)
If the Arthurian "dwarf" was in fact supposed to read "squire", it would make sense that chivalry apply. It follows too that Gimli's chivalry -- Gimli being an actual folkloric dwarf -- may have been Tolkien's way of toying with this notion (but also the character trait fits his overall intention for the noble Gimli).
Oh, and I enjoyed your expansion on the mercy idea. Thanks for that.
(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Apr 20 2014, 5:46pm)
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Apr 20 2014, 6:38pm
Post #55 of 56
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Tradition, Peers, and Explanations
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I can definitely see 'protocol' being sustained if it turns to 'tradition'. It might then be reinforced with more motivation and energy then, and strengthened within a family group.
Yes, the people I was speaking about are not so close to me. More like friends, acquaintances, colleagues, and classmates, so I can well believe that their might be an appreciable difference. Like I said, I might just be channeling my frustration with rude people. I supposed I thought that there would be more commonality and shared manner system within even my small town. I just wonder why not. In many cases the offender blusters and leaves, then the topic of conversation turns to gossip about their appalling behaviour. They seem fine else-wise, yet in a few points, they seem oblivious to their faux pas. Maybe they only received part of the learning from their partners and experiences, as you say?
Your explanation answered my question on the next point. I apologise for misunderstanding.
Ah, yes!! 'Upward mobility' I knew that term, or rather remembered it when you wrote it .
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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ajgetway
The Shire
Apr 21 2014, 4:49pm
Post #56 of 56
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I thought your essay was well written. I had not read either of the two other authors you mentioned, but it was still interesting to see how they fit in your explanation. I agree completely that chivalry and medieval honor show up a lot in fantasy. As you pointed out, some of the earliest fantasy was about Arthurian legend (a favorite subject of mine) and that is at times almost entirely about chivalry and medieval honor, as are the legends of Robin Hood and his involvement in the Crusades in some renditions. (hmmm...I sense another paper idea coming to me)
Again, I thought this paper was excellent.
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