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TORn AMATEUR SYMPOSIUM Day Three: "The 'New Man' from Morris to Tolkien: Masculinity, Identity and the Reinvention of Medieval Honor in Early Fantasy Literature," by Chris Larimore
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CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 18 2014, 11:03pm

Post #26 of 56 (2576 views)
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Depending on whom one is the chattel for. [In reply to] Can't Post

It seems to me there are a certain number of women who clamor to be the chattel of a certain Dwarf. I'm sure he would be chivalrous about the relationship since he is from a good family, so it's certain to be win-win.


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 18 2014, 11:16pm

Post #27 of 56 (2576 views)
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Well, (ahem) there is that... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
It seems to me there are a certain number of women who clamor to be the chattel of a certain Dwarf. I'm sure he would be chivalrous about the relationship since he is from a good family, so it's certain to be win-win.


So just call me the Chattelaine. Evil

The Third TORn Amateur Symposium kicks off this Sunday, April 13th, in the Reading Room. Come and join us for Tolkien-inspired writings!





**CoH Rem. Just sayin' **


simplyaven
Grey Havens


Apr 19 2014, 1:29am

Post #28 of 56 (2568 views)
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The majority did but it was about class too [In reply to] Can't Post

I think I said it all in the title. Such codes were also related to education and upbringing which was a privilege of the higher classes, so the majority of them did adhere, from what I've read, but because the population consisted also of peasants, the overall number of those adhering may look relatively small. Although in my opinion it really wasn't. Crazy

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simplyaven
Grey Havens


Apr 19 2014, 2:06am

Post #29 of 56 (2567 views)
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Um... I'm intrigued [In reply to] Can't Post

You know, I happen to come from this region... And I know all our mythology and history by heart. Not only the one of Ancient Greece but of the whole region because it's not only my education but also part of our culture to know all this as well as my personal passion. I have no idea which book you're quoting here and I'm not willing to criticize the author without having read the book, I can only say that the things I see published in North America in relation to other lands/cultures never cease to amaze me. In a negative plan. I get the feeling many people use the fact that their home lands are way too far and just write for money or fame or I don't know what else. Not this author, mind you, because I haven't read the book and s/he may have found this one and only village in Ancient Greece where boys did precisely what s/he says in his/her book. I will share here what the common situation was. Angelic

Anyways, I don't know what languages you read but there are some good sources in the native languages of the region. Reliable ones. In Ancient Greece women had a limited social life if we speak of participating in the politics, for example. Otherwise they were free to visit friends and to invite friends, to go to market, etc. It was very important that women in Ancient Greece had the right to possess their own land and means. After the marriage the husband would rule (theoretically) over these possessions but the woman was ruling over the household expenses. LOL Technically she would manage the budget and naturally the income would go to her to be distributed. Cool In Sparta they were also managing the family possessions and assets: land, farms, plantations, business, etc.

Boys in Ancient Greece stayed at home only until they turned 6-7 years old. Hardly damaging for their future development, I'd say (for many it';s the same today). After that they started education. From the age of 7 to 12-14 boys were learning first reading, writing and math with private tutors (all the time I'm talking here about middle and upper class families, the poor ones didn't even see children at home as soon as they could work and fathers worked shoulder to shoulder with their sons who could be as young as 7) ; second came arts - music and poetry, mostly; and the third part of this elementary (and possibly secondary) education were sports - in "palestra" boys competed in running, wrestling, jumping, throwing a discus and a javeline, and sometimes horseback riding. Wealthy families paid education for their sons until they turned 18 and could start to work or pursue their goals.

Having said this, boys were rarely at home at all, except to have dinnner and to sleep if they were not part of an "academy" or boarding arrangement with a famous tutor - then they wouldn't come home at all, except for a weekly visit. Little had chenged many centuries later in Great Britain, for example. Overall, wealthy parents did not raise their children. This was equally true for both fathers and mothers.

Girls didn't leave the home to study or similar until they turned 15. After that they could get married. However, there were also the girls who became courtesans or served in temples (and they were quite a few!).

I think it's also very important to mention that there were differences between the different regions of Ancient Greece and such is specifically obvious if one compares the social roles in Athens with those in Sparta, for example. It also matters which time period we are referring to as times, as we all know, change. :)

Sorry for the long post. I do read all essays and discuss them gladly, yours will not be an exception just because we have a little discussion here as well. Cool

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Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 19 2014, 3:29am

Post #30 of 56 (2573 views)
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For example, Meneldor is so cool [In reply to] Can't Post

one never has to say, in mock Italian accents, 'get agrippa!' because, you know, he's already got that.

The Third TORn Amateur Symposium kicks off this Sunday, April 13th, in the Reading Room. Come and join us for Tolkien-inspired writings!





**CoH Rem. Just sayin' **


(This post was edited by Brethil on Apr 19 2014, 3:30am)


Meneldor
Valinor


Apr 19 2014, 4:57am

Post #31 of 56 (2556 views)
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"Ambient cool?" [In reply to] Can't Post

That's cool. In an ambient kind of way. Cool

Have I told y'all that I have studied my Agrippa? One of my friends has a first edition. I didn't read much because it's in Italian and I only know about a dozen words of that, but I did look at the pictures.


They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters; These see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep.


Khim
Bree


Apr 19 2014, 5:39am

Post #32 of 56 (2575 views)
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Gender Roles in Greek History [In reply to] Can't Post

I cannot recall the book, but it was read as part of a class I had in the 1980s. I recalled that much of the class concerned the Helenistic Age. Not sure what period or places were discussed specifically. The first link on my first search, "gender roles Helenistic Age" was the following:

http://classes.maxwell.syr.edu/his301-001/sara.htm

Not a proof in what I admitted was a debatible argument, but considering the first hit I got supports what I said at least proves I remember a little from my college days Smile

I am Khim akin to Mim.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 19 2014, 9:37am

Post #33 of 56 (2544 views)
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A system of many mirrors and lenses [In reply to] Can't Post

'Democracy' is perhaps a very good parallel to 'chivalry' - it would certainly be possible to live in the present day real world in what was notionally a democracy, but for that to have only a theoretical effect on ones life. Or to live in circumstances where democracy really did affect what did and did not happen around you.

Similarly, I'm sure medieval people experienced more or less chivalry depending upon their place and time and role in society.

Historians, I suppose have to pick from the various data available, and come up with a theory of how it was.

Authors of historical fiction are customarily allowed a bit more lassitude - though some have chosen to research their chosen period minutely, and some readers will find the story spoiled if some detail is clearly wrong.

Probably fiction, more than scholarly history exposes the author's own opinions, biases and agendas. For example I remember reading Conan-Doyle's The White Company, a historical novel concerning a company of English archers in the Hundred Years War. Conan-Doyle made significant efforts with his historical research; but the nowadays highly unappealing casual anti-catholicism is entirely from Conan-Doyle's own period.

Fantasy writers, as opposed to historical ones, are one set of lenses or mirrors further away. Presumably Mr or Ms Author decided to write Fantasy rather that historical fiction for a set of reasons. Lazily trying to avoid that tedious historical research is probably not often one of them (at least I doubt a lazy person can write good Fantasy - I think it is very hard work). In being freed of the harness of historical fact, the author can reveal even more of themselves and their agenda if any.

~~~~~~

"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 19 2014, 10:03am

Post #34 of 56 (2557 views)
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Chivalry in Game of Thrones [In reply to] Can't Post

I was thinking that one could add George RR Martin's Game of Thrones to the selection of fantasy stories which touch on notions of chivalry and masculinity.

The following will be a SPOILER if you plan to read the first of the books, or see Series 1 of the TV show. I'll try to write the below in such a way that you can follow them if you have not read/watched the story].

Martin's invented world, Westeros, is similar in many ways to Medieval Europe. While it certainly has concepts of chivalry, it is not a particularly chivalrous place in practical terms - the story quickly takes in adultery, two attempted murder of a child who witnesses it, and then an escalating series of plots and counter-plots involving such unchivalrous tools as murders, kidnappings, and raiding/looting/pillaging/burning/raping on a neighbour's lands as a policy tool.

The story also has an (initialy) naive teenage girl, Sansa Stark, who, as a member of a powerful noble family becomes betrothed to the child-king Joffrey. Taken to court, Sansa's romantic expectations of court life are used as a contrast to the ruthless scheming going on around her.

Towards the end of the First book (1st TV series), war has nearly broken out between the ruling Baratheon family, and the Stark Clan and their allies. Sansa's father, head of the Stark Clan is convicted of treason. There is a scene in which Sansa is to plead publicly with Joffrey for her father's life.

Here we see an interesting example of chivalry at work, I think. What is supposed to happen is that Joffrey is to declare himself touched by the pleadings of his pretty lady, and commute the execution. That ought to put his clan bloodlessly in a position of power, whereas executing Stark will make open war inevitable. Chivalry allows him to grant the wish of a Lady, without seeming weak in forgiving his enemy.

Of course, Joffrey being Joffrey, he bungles this carefully set-up piece of political theatre...

~~~~~~

"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Apr 19 2014, 2:12pm

Post #35 of 56 (2537 views)
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Well, once, while I was riding a wild walrus... [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey! You looked! No, I didn't actually ride a walrus. (Yet!) Wink It was part of a clever experiment.

Sooooo.....does that mean I became ambiently cool for the two seconds you were fooled?ShockedSly

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Apr 19 2014, 2:18pm

Post #36 of 56 (2543 views)
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Hmm... [In reply to] Can't Post

I do agree that the possibility for that case existed, and I am a fan of the idea that education and learning will uplift people, however, I do find that the idea itself strays perilously close to elitism. People/nobles 'trained' to rule or 'best fit' to lead by virtue of their training, do seem to be the best choice, but I find that the reason for the position and position itself, too soon become conflated. Having the position is sometimes seen as enough to warrant the vested power, rather than the other way around based on personal merit.

My confusion comes from the fact that if education was enough to inspire chivalric behavior , we'd have a world full of noble people. We have a lot of education today, but it seems to turn some people into snobs rather than knightly gentle-people. I think there must be something else involved to bring the humility and Faramir-like attitude toward power and authority. Any ideas?

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 19 2014, 3:21pm

Post #37 of 56 (2536 views)
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boys, boys... [In reply to] Can't Post

I hear you'll both be contacted by HBO when they cast the upcoming George RR Martin book 'A Boatload of Badass Bookworms'.

Wink

~~~~~~

"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 19 2014, 3:33pm

Post #38 of 56 (2521 views)
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Yes, we will credit you with that Ambient Coolness Rem [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Hey! You looked! No, I didn't actually ride a walrus. (Yet!) Wink It was part of a clever experiment.
Sooooo.....does that mean I became ambiently cool for the two seconds you were fooled?ShockedSly

A neat experiment. Should lead to some very interesting post titles from here on out. Wink

The Third TORn Amateur Symposium kicks off this Sunday, April 13th, in the Reading Room. Come and join us for Tolkien-inspired writings!





**CoH Rem. Just sayin' **


elaen32
Gondor


Apr 19 2014, 5:08pm

Post #39 of 56 (2986 views)
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Societal codes of conduct [In reply to] Can't Post

Chivalry, like all codes of conduct, I see as an ideal to aspire to, rather than being the norm. I like your parallel of democracy, NoWiz-arguably, even developed Western democracies have areas in their laws and customs which fall short of the democratic ideal. However, that does not mean that we do not aspire to that ideal in order to promote a just society. In the same way, medieval knights aspired to the notion of chivalry in order to promote peace and stability in their society, even if many fell short of the mark


Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in April. Happy writing!



elaen32
Gondor


Apr 19 2014, 5:15pm

Post #40 of 56 (2534 views)
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I really enjoyed this Chris [In reply to] Can't Post

Very interesting essay. I liked the comparison of the various writers too_ I had not come across Morris' story before, but found it fascinating.


Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in April. Happy writing!



simplyaven
Grey Havens


Apr 19 2014, 7:10pm

Post #41 of 56 (2537 views)
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What support? [In reply to] Can't Post

Support is always available. In this case, though, part of the paper says the same as I quoted before. This link discusses marriage and I also said that women in Ancient Greece were to be married as early as 15 years of age and that after the marriage the husband would rule the woman's possessions. So, in what way does this paper defer from what I said in this department? It just turns into an overly dramatic TV novel from there. I dare to doubt the two authors most often quoted in the paper. Some of the statements are amusing. If you are interested in the topic, there is much more on the topic.

I can suggest you google on Russian Google "ðîëü æåíùèíû â äðåâíåé ãðåöèè" and go on from there as vast amount of information is available. Of course, I can also suggest you Google historical societies and univesities' lectures on "role of women in Ancient Greece" in Serbian, Macedonian, Bulgarian, and of course Greek languages. I personally find some French works amazingly accurate and well done as well. With Google translate these days it's very easy to use all the resources out there.

Sorry for not being able to participate further. Time is pressing me.

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(This post was edited by Altaira on Apr 19 2014, 9:51pm)


simplyaven
Grey Havens


Apr 19 2014, 7:25pm

Post #42 of 56 (2517 views)
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Not this education [In reply to] Can't Post

I am not afraid of elitism as I come from a family with such background and I'm honestly sick of people trying to make me feel guilty for it. I am not.

Anyways, education at those times was mostly the basic writing, reading, math but was also the manners, dancing, fencing, horseback riding, etc. Manners included many things. How to walk, when to approach, how to speak, how to discuss, how to withdraw, what is accepted and polite and what is rude, the strict rules of society at those times and of behaving in the court or in a superior's home. Now, these were in addition to the examples the boys saw in their own fathers and the society that surrounded them. It did matter if you're watching and copying a knight or a courtier (aristocrat) or a villager on the field. I am not afraid to point at facts. Such were the times and the difference between the first two types of men and the third one would be huge. In manners, in behaviour, in everything. Which has nothing to do with categories good/bad which is today's people favorite route to follow in such discussions. Being a gentleman and adhering to chivalry didn't mean that the villager who didn't was a bad person. He simply didn't have the opportunity and background to see and live this. On the other hand, he wasn't required or expected to. Overall, it was a class thing. There were always exceptions one way or another but I'm trying to look at the big picture.

In short, I didn't mean education as such as it exists today. I am not supporting the idea that education has made anyone more of a gentleman. Sadly, I'm surrounded by examples of the opposite.

I think the case of Faramir is a good writer's tool and is more about internal nobility rather than manners which I'm pointing at. He looks like having it all. Look at the Three Musketeers, Athos probably would be the same level. The difference is that the musketeers did exist as many more of the characters in Dumas' writings. The other musketeers possessed the manners but were they all equally noble on the inside? No. People are different but the chivalry and the gentleman-like behaviour were expected from one level up. IMO, of course.

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Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 19 2014, 8:32pm

Post #43 of 56 (2507 views)
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We need more Blue Wizard posts I think [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
: I agree with Khim's post that it's vain to look to fantasy for accurate representation of history. And I agree with his further post that the original essay never said so, and that he's not refuting the argument. So in Blue Wizard style, that goes:


"Hi!" cried Sam in an outraged voice. "There's that Ted Sandyman a-wearing a kind of smock which has three bands of smocking across the chest and which therefore is not authentic for England in this period!"

He seemed to be growing hot, and curls of steam were rising from his ears.

"Do not touch the Author!" said the Lady Galadriel gently.





I like these bits enormously. Maybe as a regular installment. *make it so* Laugh

Back to topic - I agree too that bringing any historic sensibility forward will most likely be done with an inevitable mental filter in place; especially if the author wished to guarantee sympathy with a particular character. Our priorities and values are different age to age; what was heroic in another time (and thus another culture, essentially) may not be seen as such today. An example: Vlad Tepes, aka Vlad the Impaler, is also a saint. So history definitely depends on the filter you have employed (will that be a Rose, Blue or maybe Mirror filter, sir?)

The Third TORn Amateur Symposium kicks off this Sunday, April 13th, in the Reading Room. Come and join us for Tolkien-inspired writings!





**CoH Rem. Just sayin' **


(This post was edited by Brethil on Apr 19 2014, 8:35pm)


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 19 2014, 11:40pm

Post #44 of 56 (2501 views)
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Another Filter? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I do agree that the possibility for that case existed, and I am a fan of the idea that education and learning will uplift people, however, I do find that the idea itself strays perilously close to elitism. People/nobles 'trained' to rule or 'best fit' to lead by virtue of their training, do seem to be the best choice, but I find that the reason for the position and position itself, too soon become conflated. Having the position is sometimes seen as enough to warrant the vested power, rather than the other way around based on personal merit.

My confusion comes from the fact that if education was enough to inspire chivalric behavior , we'd have a world full of noble people. We have a lot of education today, but it seems to turn some people into snobs rather than knightly gentle-people. I think there must be something else involved to bring the humility and Faramir-like attitude toward power and authority. Any ideas?





The idea of merit versus birth is perhaps ingrained in our current culture, just as the opposite was in previous times. A reflection perhaps of the ways society seeks to contain chaos, and have social order (which we find inherently important.) I am thinking of a sort of macro-Maslow's hierarchy, in that during times of less communication and de-centralized order the easiest and most expedient method of 'fitness' for rule (and whatever class distinctions followed) was based on birth and familial relationships. So indeed an elitism, but for the larger good at the particular developmental time in history that seems to have served a purpose for that particular time and level of social evolution. That ensured the basics of a functioning society in the hierarchy: food, water, shelter, and a reduction in internal strife.

Our society (being very Western-centric here, in this instance) has now freer access to the basic biological needs; thus it has moved towards the individual expressions and freedoms. It may create what we perceive as shifting and inconsistent social norms. Only time will tell as to what the 'new normal' is; but that's true for any time. (The more things change, the more they stay the same, after all.)Wink

So perhaps the filter here is need? Once basic needs are met and the larger social order is in place (as in a centralized government) the people themselves may fragment more into personal paths and meet more individual intellectual and emotional needs as they perceive them. And I have no doubt that societies can move from one stage to another and back again depending on how their needs can be met.
.

The Third TORn Amateur Symposium kicks off this Sunday, April 13th, in the Reading Room. Come and join us for Tolkien-inspired writings!





**CoH Rem. Just sayin' **


(This post was edited by Brethil on Apr 19 2014, 11:40pm)


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Apr 20 2014, 12:28am

Post #45 of 56 (2501 views)
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Nice essay -- [In reply to] Can't Post

Just to expand on a point you made...

In Malory, it wasn't so much Lancelot's betrayal that brought down the Round Table, it was Gawain's refusal to extend mercy and forgiveness to him for the death of his brothers, Gareth in particular. A readiness to extend mercy, especially when it is asked for is a cornerstone of Medieval Chivalry.

When contrasting this with Boromir and the breaking of the Fellowship, Aragorn is gracious towards Boromir, expressing mercy, forgiveness and remorse at his confession. Perhaps this is why the breaking of the Fellowship was turned from an evil thing, to good.

Thank you for the interesting essay!


(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Apr 20 2014, 12:30am)


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Apr 20 2014, 1:52am

Post #46 of 56 (2489 views)
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Another thought... [In reply to] Can't Post

I do see what you mean, and I did not mean to give offence.

In mulling it over a bit more, I have begun to wonder... If the courtly graces and manners, as well as the noble virtues, were communicated from father to son, or in an inter-classaical manner, one would learn them from ones' societal peers, yes? What then is the difference in our society? How is it different then from today's idea of 'positive peer-pressure' or culture? Living in our own communities, don't we learn much the same things about manners and what is socially acceptable? Wouldn't the almost uniform class standing of the contemporary men and women also allow freer mingling and sharing of high-minded ideals? Wouldn't they become more widespread?

Our society, as Brethil has mentioned, has become decidedly more egalitarian. So perhaps that has sapped some of the motivation that was present in the higher class. Maybe when we are all the same, socially, so we seek diversity in another way. Just take your pick in the ways people try to make themselves unique: Body art, Artists of every flavour, Actors, Writers with their own visions and worlds, and a myriad of other expressions of individuality. Perhaps the motivation for upward social movement has been skewed more horizontally in our culture. Maybe, in the absence of a clearly defined class system, our aim is to stand out of the single class that now exists. Partisans of the old-system might have found the social field leveled and been forced to sacrifice some of the protocol and ceremony of which their new neighbors had no inkling.

On the topic of genuine nobility, the embodied ideals of Chivalry and any other higher moral system, I would say that much of it is contingent, as you say, on personal character. Position doesn't guarantee success, nor does it preclude it. This train of thought rapidly leads in the direction of the Nature vs. Nurture argument. Regardless of the elusive answer, I do think that a noble could fake nobility, and a commoner be more knightly than he. Whether they got the chance to show it or not, is irrelevant to me. What they were in their souls was a personal matter, and for speculation alone. I also do see how class could affect one's behaviour. A noble might uphold the noble ideals for the sake of family or position, just as a commoner might be drawn down into baser living because he has isolated himself. It's a sword that cuts two ways.

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Apr 20 2014, 2:07am

Post #47 of 56 (2475 views)
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I see what you are saying... [In reply to] Can't Post

I though find the notion of limited-acceptability and a purpose-only-for-a-time terribly puzzling, and must ask with Eomer 'how is a man to judge in these/those days'. Aragorn's answer, with which I agree, gives me comfort though, 'As he has ever judged. Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear.'

I personally think that there has always been someone 'getting it right' as it were. That Good has an entire continuity to it, reaching into the beginning of time and up to the present day. I also imagine that if the entire notion of Good, or just part of it, were extirpated with the bearers or copies of it, there would be no hope of rediscovering it. I think that it differs from scientific fact in that it is based on abstract philosophical principles that cannot be observed and tested as the physical world is. Also, I do not think that the notion of a good morality can just appear from nowhere, or coalesce from an amalgam of thought or reasoning. I think it must have always existed, and we seek to discover it from the places it has been deposited. Thus there was always someone man or woman, noble or commoner, tall or short, of any race, persuasion or characteristic, that passed on the legacy of what Good was, or a part of it, and I think it part of our duty to pass what we know on to others, so that our part is never is lost.

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


simplyaven
Grey Havens


Apr 20 2014, 2:32am

Post #48 of 56 (2484 views)
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Not sure if good to enter into this [In reply to] Can't Post

Rembrethil, I also see what you mean and no offense taken at all!

Now, on the influence by social peers and why people today are such and such... I'm not sure if I'm willing to enter this because, you see, I am not American. Not Canadian either. Where I come from manners still matter a lot, so I can't say people have changed *that* much but it's not "politically correct" to comment on other nations either because I don't know all Americans (I assume you speak of Americans or am I mistaking?) or Canadians or else. However, I have the right to comment on what surrounds me, this circle of people who are neighbours, colleagues, cashiers at my local grocery store, etc. and I'm not impressed. There are other three countries where I've lived (and know better) - one Eastern, two Western European, there manners also matter much, still. Many things here shock me, to be honest. Other things I find plain rude. But again, it is not allowed to be commented on which I find absurd. You see, we are very different. :) I do believe in effect of influence and environment which makes me believe rude people generally grow up in rude environment.

I haven't personally sacrificed anything nor have my relatives or our friends. We just save the protocol for home and gatherings and that's all. At the same time my uncle will always grab the bags from woman's hands or open the door or offer a hand to a woman descending from the street car. Why shouldn't he? Oh but here he could be looked in such a way that he would be better armed and expecting attack. Because it's offensive to be considered "weak". You see again how different we are? I expect such behaviour and it has nothing to do with the fact that being in sports all my life I can probably lift the shopping cart with the bags inside. It's about appreciation.

I read recently a report, if I can remember where I will post the link, about the percentage people in the USA who are actually succeeding beyond their upbringing. It has a specific name which I sadly don't remember, there is term for this. I was surprised to find out that Great Britain, with its monarchy and aristocratic system still existng with the titles and all, often considered limiting and cruel to those of lower position, was actually easier to succeed in if you're not of a high birth comapred to the USA. So, I'm not sure how horizontal the society is. For one, I don't think democracy exists or will ever exist. The difference is that now in many countries titles are replaced by bank accounts or "positions". The elite is now in the golf clubs and tennis courts but even in my neighbourhood here it's hard to miss them. They do rule and we all know it. IMHO. The good schools are still there, the connections are still important... Little has changed, only lots of blood was spilled in the name of ideals that never happened and never will because human nature is greedy. Sorry, this is my belief based on my family history and many others.

Yes, of course nothing guarantees an aristocratic boy is a good boy. Or a peasant boy is a bad boy but I specifically said that in this discussion I don't talk about good/bad and everyone sooner or later gets there again. I was referring to plain behaviour in society, whatever this society is. Manners, way of talking, walking, fencing, dancing, etc. One may be a very complex person with a difficult personality but be a perfect gentleman. With peasant boys it was just a bit harder to get the knowledge how to behave, when and where, or to get fencing lessons or dancing. Can you imagine it? That's why I said it was a class thing. After all, just like today, money matters and they buy lessons, clothes, tutors, etc. Little has changed.

Chivalry is a bit more complicated, of course, more complex, and I bet there were many man - commoners who were deserving to be considered adhering the code, I just don't know them and I don't know them because the memoirs or documents I can find to read from that time were not written about such men. I have some family stories to add to the idea of good and noble servants who did certain things which were greatly appreciated and rewarded accordingly but based on 2-3 people in 300 years I can't really say much. On the other hand, why do I think chivalry is so much different? I don't know. In the beginning it was much about serving others and mastering the skills of a warrior to defend noble causes but with the time it became also courtesy, courtly love, and of course the immortal idea of honour. The problem being that "noble cause" is a slippery ground and we all know how some institutions have presented their causes as such and et cetera. I'm not even sure that from one moment on the knights were so much into serving "the others" as their nation or were more into serving their master and more so - their lady. Much has been done for a handkerchief while may be the original code didn't mean that... I got very entangled in my own thoughts. I'll go and dig a few books now to refresh my memory. Crazy

Middle earth recipes archive

I believe


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Apr 20 2014, 3:32am

Post #49 of 56 (2478 views)
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Thought back [In reply to] Can't Post

Hmm.. I think I get, and agree with, most of what you are saying, but there are a few things I don't seem to understand:


But again, it is not allowed to be commented on which I find absurd. You see, we are very different. :)

I'm not sure the meaning behind these words. Do you mean to say that your reticence to name them (In contrast to mine) is a difference between us? Or is it simply to state that there is, invariably, a difference between us because of our backgrounds? I am unsure what your meaning is. I may just be thick, and misunderstanding a simple point here.Crazy



I haven't personally sacrificed anything nor have my relatives or our friends. We just save the protocol for home and gatherings and that's all.

In a general manner of speaking, I would think that the 'protocol', if thought of as an organised system, would be subject to entropic degradation over time. By adhering to 'protocol' so different than the norm, I think the tendency, over time, would be to follow it less rigidly or abandon inconvenient parts. I admit it, I'm lazy at heart, so I might be projecting myself onto others, but I think that most people like to make things easier.Angelic

In the same vein, I think that in any society or community there is an accepted norm or staus quo for manners and evaluating actions. It might be immaterial, ephemeral, and different for each community, but still it remains a tacit judge of acceptability within the social circles and governs the inter-personal relations within that community. When someone is 'rude' at a social event and several different people can agree on that point, what do they base the judgement on? That is what I mean by the abstract standard of manners, and it cannot always be codified. So, I was wondering why so many people who have grown up and lived around me, imbibing the same ideology and culture I have, and sharing a vast majority of my experiences, can be rude. In doing so, are they not transgressing the socially acceptable limits that they have previously lived in and learned from those around them? The same ones I have learned and am using to label their actions as socially unacceptable? This might be me channeling my frustration with rude people, but I really don't see how some people I know well, can be blithely unaware of their appealing behaviour, even when confronted.




Oh but here he could be looked in such a way that he would be better armed and expecting attack. Because it's offensive to be considered "weak". You see again how different we are?

Is the latter sentence presenting a counter-argument to your assertion that it is socially acceptable for your uncle to act the way in which he does? Is it an attempt to introduce a broader scope by showing what is acceptable in one place might not be in another? O rhave I said somwthing that led you to infer that the cases you have presented are not acceptable in my society? Again, I apologise for possibly being thick...Crazy


I don't talk about good/bad and everyone sooner or later gets there again. I was referring to plain behaviour in society, whatever this society is.

I too was trying to skirt that boundary. I was aiming to illustrate the point that one's peers will impact your behaviour. We might compromise our actions, for good or ill, to meet others' expectations. What the person may be doing, or what they may change, may not be morally wrong or right in any way, just different. But the differences can be perceived as that, different, perhaps even unlikable or undesirable by others, hence the distinctions of manners between classes or cultures and motivation to change. In the sense here, I aimed to focus on the protocol and manners adopted by a person, independent of their true feelings or beliefs. Obviously, one cannot say everything that comes to mind without offending anyone, so there are always restrictions on oneself and a possibly turbulent temperament.

Social circles today do have their own expectations as to dress and conduct, and I do see a similarity to the past. When meeting a dignitary, for example, the suave businessman or diplomat accustomed to such meetings, will naturally have the advantage over the office worker, in knowing the right things to say and how to dress.

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 20 2014, 9:40am

Post #50 of 56 (2482 views)
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Mercy and Manners in Middle-earth [In reply to] Can't Post


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In Malory, it wasn't so much Lancelot's betrayal that brought down the Round Table, it was Gawain's refusal to extend mercy and forgiveness to him for the death of his brothers, Gareth in particular. A readiness to extend mercy, especially when it is asked for is a cornerstone of Medieval Chivalry.


That made me think - mercy is a key concept in LOTR, whereas manners are allowed and authentic-seeming variation between different cultures.

As regardes mercy - the Pity of Bilbo comes to rule the fate of many. This is true and not only in the practical sense. The practical sense is that Bilbo considers killing Gollum whilst escaping from him, but chooses not to as a moral issue. So Gollum remains alive to play his role in the destruction of the Ring. Bilbo (and Frodo's) intentions are important too - we are told they suffer kinder fates than might have been, thanks to their refusal to use the Ring for evil ends.

But Tolkien has some fun with varied manners: those culturally-varied details of how to behave socially:

  • Gandalf, early in The Hobbit, picking apart the various ways in which 'Good Morning' can be used in the Shire (including as a coded dismissal).

  • The comedy value of Bilbo trying to fulfil his duties as a host to an unexpected party of dwarves.

  • The deep understanding which passes between Gimli and The Lady Galadriel, is an interesting example. It lays the foundation of Gimli's friendship with Legolas, but also makes it risky to say anything critical of Lady Galadriel in Gimli's presence. (Is Gimli's insistence on seeing himself as Galadriel's champion the most overtly 'chivalrous' thing in the book - or at least the thing most according to cliches of chivalry? And is Tolkien doing this for humour, or does he have other reasons?)

  • Eomer and Eowyn want to send Merry back to the Shire with lavish gifts (I suppose that is how Eomer, now Merry's Liege Lord, is expected to behave rewarding a heroic follower under Comitatus, but it is deeply embarrassing for someone used to the ways of the Shire) but in the end they compromise on a small but suitably priceless horn.



I'm also thinking of an exchange towards the end of The Hobbit, where Bilbo says farewell to the dwarves:


Quote
Then the dwarves bowed low before their Gate, but words stuck in their throats. “Good-bye and good luck, wherever you fare!” said Balin at last. “If ever you visit us again, when our halls are made fair once more, then the feast shall indeed be splendid!”

“If ever you are passing my way,” said Bilbo, “don’t wait to knock! Tea is at four; but any of you are welcome at any time!”


Note how they've each said exactly the same sentiment, but each in their own cultural style (an observation which isn't mine - Prof. Shippey, I think).

~~~~~~

"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

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