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Starglass
Rivendell
Apr 19 2014, 5:02pm
Post #1 of 12
(866 views)
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Chapter of the Week: Bilbo's Mercy
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Chapter of the Week: Bilbo's Mercy
** First of all I want to apologize for the lack of photos and sophisticated formatting for this CHOW. I am still a newbie trying to figure everything out and couldn't get the photos to show up in my post. I did look at the instructions, but I have a new Mac computer and apparently my browser doesn't follow the same steps (I'm still learning how to use my Mac as well). I hope it doesn't take away too much from our discussion but feel free to post any photos yourself that you want to discuss.**
Anyway...Hello everyone and welcome to another CHOW! This is my first time hosting so I am very excited and tried hard to come up with good questions to do this wonderful scene justice. Bilbo's Mercy is one of my favorite scenes that stuck with me long after I left the theater and a very pivotal moment in the book so I'm very eager to hear everyone's opinions! Let's begin, shall we?
First a few general question:
1. How much did you like this scene overall?
2. How about in relation to other scenes in the movie? Or the other LotR movies?
I personally loved this scene and it is among my favorites in all of the LotR movies.
Now some questions about the scene itself:
We start off with invisible Bilbo sneaking down the tunnel behind Gollum. Soon Gandalf and the dwarves appear through the opening. Bilbo obviously notices and acts as if he is about to signal to them. Just a little while ago he was thinking about leaving them behind, but now he is clearly only thinking of rejoining them, something that becomes even clearer in the next scene.
3. At what point do you think Bilbo realized that he really didn’t want to leave the dwarves? Was it only in that moment?
4. Bilbo seeing the dwarves running by is different from what happens in the book. What do you think of this change? Do you think it helps give Bilbo the proper desperation needed to think about killing Gollum?
Now we get into the heart of the scene where Bilbo decides to spare Gollum's life.
5. What did you think about the acting in this crucial moment (from both Andy Serkis and Martin Freeman)? Were both actors able to successfully capture the emotions and thoughts of their characters? Any particular gestures/expressions/emotions that stood out?
6. What did you think about the cinematography in this part, specifically how the camera kept switching back and forth between Bilbo and Gollum's view? Was it effective in portraying the message?
7. Bilbo’s Mercy is such a pivotal moment not only in TH but also in relation to the LotR series as it sets things off and mirrors Frodo’s similar act of mercy. How well do you think this scene connects with similar ones in LotR (Frodo’s mercy towards Gollum, Gandalf and Frodo discussing Bilbo’s mercy etc.)? How is it different from these scenes in LotR?
8. Do you think the theme of mercy is presented more effectively in TH over LotR (or vice versa) or do you think both handle the theme well? Now that you’ve seen how it was done in TH is there anything you would change regarding the mercy theme in LotR?
9. Just curious, did anybody else besides me get choked up during this scene?
Unfortunately this emotional, quiet moment doesn’t last long. Bilbo makes a running leap over Gollum who almost instantly reverts back to his ring-crazed self.
10. Did you find this change jarring (in a good or bad way)? (I know I would've liked a few more seconds spent on Bilbo's face before having him jump, but that's just me)
11. The scene ends with Gollum screaming “We hates it for ever!” and glaring into the camera. Do you think this was an effective end?
And now for the scene overall:
12. Any other cinematographic elements that you would like to mention?
13. What do you think about the music and sound effects in this scene?
14. Any other comments?
And a not very important question that has me curious:
Pretend you were in Bilbo’s shoes- would you spare Gollum? (Of course, you have not read LotR and have no idea of the importance of keeping Gollum alive)
Thanks very much for the opportunity to host this week's discussion! I am looking very forward to reading your responses. Next time I promise I'll figure out how to put in pictures (that is, if you will allow me to have a next time!) 
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pettytyrant101
Lorien
Apr 19 2014, 5:50pm
Post #2 of 12
(688 views)
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1. How much did you like this scene overall?
I'll give you a clue, it wasn't a lot.
2. How about in relation to other scenes in the movie? Or the other LotR movies?
It met all my expectations and was to the same standard as the rest, without a doubt.
We start off with invisible Bilbo sneaking down the tunnel behind Gollum. Soon Gandalf and the dwarves appear through the opening. Bilbo obviously notices and acts as if he is about to signal to them. Just a little while ago he was thinking about leaving them behind, but now he is clearly only thinking of rejoining them, something that becomes even clearer in the next scene.
3. At what point do you think Bilbo realized that he really didn’t want to leave the dwarves? Was it only in that moment?
4. Bilbo seeing the dwarves running by is different from what happens in the book. What do you think of this change? Do you think it helps give Bilbo the proper desperation needed to think about killing Gollum?
The thing that gets me most about this scene, is that the exit is opposite Bilbo, right across the tunnel from where he is and which Gollum is blocking. Bilbo jumps over Golum and runs straight on out the exit. You can see the daylight coming through it clearly, especially when the Ring effect is on.
So why is Ganalf waving all the dwarves straight past the exit and on down the tunnel?
And even worse, he is standing with his back to BIlbo, looking right at the exit of dazzling daylight, and he still waves everyone right by it and then follows them.
And if I was BIlbo I would be pretty annoyed watching Gandalf wave everyone by that he failed to notice BIlbo was not among them. I mean its not like its ever dark underground in a PJ film.
I never got the impression Bilbo makes any sort of decision here to return to the dwarves, he never really decided to leave them save in a contrived manner, he just fell down an improbably huge cliff and wandered about a bit, there is nowhere else for him to go.
As to what I think of the change, see the above reasons for why its stupid, as well as robbing Dori of the thing he does in the book- get lumbered with Bilbo.
5. What did you think about the acting in this crucial moment (from both Andy Serkis and Martin Freeman)? Were both actors able to successfully capture the emotions and thoughts of their characters? Any particular gestures/expressions/emotions that stood out?
6. What did you think about the cinematography in this part, specifically how the camera kept switching back and forth between Bilbo and Gollum's view? Was it effective in portraying the message?
7. Bilbo’s Mercy is such a pivotal moment not only in TH but also in relation to the LotR series as it sets things off and mirrors Frodo’s similar act of mercy. How well do you think this scene connects with similar ones in LotR (Frodo’s mercy towards Gollum, Gandalf and Frodo discussing Bilbo’s mercy etc.)? How is it different from these scenes in LotR?
8. Do you think the theme of mercy is presented more effectively in TH over LotR (or vice versa) or do you think both handle the theme well? Now that you’ve seen how it was done in TH is there anything you would change regarding the mercy theme in LotR?
Nothing wrong with the acting as such save I think the whole scene is over played. It tries to hard to be 'the big important moment', everything is held slightly to long in shot for me, it reminds me of Gollum losing the Ring- its overblown. Self aware.
But that's not my main grips. My main gripe is Gandalf's earlier foreshadowing of it when he gave Bilbo Sting, all that knowing when not to take a life guff.
So is BIlbo in the scene acting out of a genuine sense of pity coming solely from himself, or are Gandalf's words just ringing in his ears and he is being influenced by them?
I hate that foreshadowing, it casts doubt within the film universe over Bilbo's exact motivation here.
This is not helped by his leap over Gollum including a square kick to Gollums face that looks more than half deliberate (and certainly was on the film makers part as Bilbo does not kick Gollum in the face in the book).
As if all this was not bad enough they then follow this scene with one in which Bilbo kills stuff and earns everyone's respect and acceptance through acts of violence.
Way to screw up the message just because you split it into three films and didn't have a proper ending any more.
Overall, up until the Taming of Smeagol section of the films, I think LotR's handled the mercy theme much better.
It was for example good adaptation to move the speech about pity from Shadows to Moria and the reappearance of Gollum into the story.
9. Just curious, did anybody else besides me get choked up during this scene?
Not unless you are counting with rage.
10. Did you find this change jarring (in a good or bad way)? (I know I would've liked a few more seconds spent on Bilbo's face before having him jump, but that's just me)
I seem to have already covered this one above.
11. The scene ends with Gollum screaming “We hates it for ever!” and glaring into the camera. Do you think this was an effective end?
Yes. It was just as effective when Bakshi used it too.
12. Any other cinematographic elements that you would like to mention?
Why are caves never dark?
13. What do you think about the music and sound effects in this scene?
There are several times in the films script Gandalf mentions the quietness of hobbits- I really wish someone had told the foley people this.
14. Any other comments?
I better not.
Thanks for the questions. Good fun as always, even if it is like shooting fish in a barrel with these films.
"A lot of our heroes depress me. But when they made this particular hero they didn't give him a gun, they gave him a screwdriver so he could fix things. They didn't give him a tank, or a warship, or an x-wing fighter, they gave him a call box from which you can call for help. And they didn't give him a superpower, or pointy ears or a heat ray, they gave him an extra heart. And that's an extraordinary thing.
There will never come a time when we don't need a hero like the Doctor."- Steven Moffat
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BlackFox
Half-elven
Apr 19 2014, 7:15pm
Post #3 of 12
(689 views)
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"True courage is about knowing not when to take a life, but when to spare one."
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1. How much did you like this scene overall?
A lot. So few words (none by Bilbo), yet so many powerful emotions! 
2. How about in relation to other scenes in the movie? Or the other LotR movies?
It definitely ranks high on my list, especially as it is, as you noted, such a pivotal scene.
3. At what point do you think Bilbo realized that he really didn’t want to leave the dwarves? Was it only in that moment?
My guess is that he realized it as soon as they were separated. We see him sneak after the dwarves when they're taken away by the goblins, only to be interrupted by one himself. His encounter with Gollum surely adds to the feeling. However, I believe his number one goal here is just to get out alive.
4. Bilbo seeing the dwarves running by is different from what happens in the book. What do you think of this change? Do you think it helps give Bilbo the proper desperation needed to think about killing Gollum?
Good point! It certainly adds a dramatic effect to it. Not only does Bilbo have to make a choice, he has to make it quick, meaning there's no time to think - he has to make the decision solely by listening to his heart (which is, I believe, what saves Gollum's life).
5. What did you think about the acting in this crucial moment (from both Andy Serkis and Martin Freeman)? Were both actors able to successfully capture the emotions and thoughts of their characters? Any particular gestures/expressions/emotions that stood out?
It's spot on! I love the way Bilbo reacts to the tear running down Gollum's face and the way he draws his breathe before taking a step back to jump over Gollum. It's the little things...
6. What did you think about the cinematography in this part, specifically how the camera kept switching back and forth between Bilbo and Gollum's view? Was it effective in portraying the message?
I like how we're allowed to "see" through both of their eyes. It nicely emphasizes the fact that there's an act of "silent communication" going on between the two (albeit without Gollum's knowledge).
7. Bilbo’s Mercy is such a pivotal moment not only in TH but also in relation to the LotR series as it sets things off and mirrors Frodo’s similar act of mercy. How well do you think this scene connects with similar ones in LotR (Frodo’s mercy towards Gollum, Gandalf and Frodo discussing Bilbo’s mercy etc.)? How is it different from these scenes in LotR?
I swear I could hear Gandalf's voice in my head the first time I saw this scene. "Pity? It was pity that stayed Bilbo’s hand. Many that live deserve death, and some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be too eager to deal out death and judgment. Even the very wise cannot see all ends. My heart tells me that Gollum has some part to play yet, for good or ill, before this is over. The pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many." (This is probably my favourite quote of them all.) To have this scene play out in front of our eyes... I have a hard time finding the right words to describe the feeling I got (heck, still get). It's just *such* a powerful scene!
8. Do you think the theme of mercy is presented more effectively in TH over LotR (or vice versa) or do you think both handle the theme well? Now that you’ve seen how it was done in TH is there anything you would change regarding the mercy theme in LotR?
Both handle the theme well, IMO. AUJ shows us *the* moment and FOTR (Frodo & Gandalf in Moria) offers us a comment on it. Would I change anything? No, these two scenes are both perfect, at least in my eyes.
9. Just curious, did anybody else besides me get choked up during this scene?
Count me in!
10. Did you find this change jarring (in a good or bad way)? (I know I would've liked a few more seconds spent on Bilbo's face before having him jump, but that's just me)
I did. In a good way, of course. Gollum clearly dominates over Smeagol at this point.
11. The scene ends with Gollum screaming “We hates it for ever!” and glaring into the camera. Do you think this was an effective end?
Yes, I think it was. It's this line that will characterize the rest of Gollum's life.
12. Any other cinematographic elements that you would like to mention?
I like how the camera moves away from Gollum a couple of times to show how the tunnel seems to be empty when we know it isn't.
13. What do you think about the music and sound effects in this scene?
The music beautifully emphasizes Bilbo's change of heart: he's about to strike... he doubts... he decides to spare Gollum's life.
14. Any other comments?
I believe it's the fact that Gollum (unknowingly) turns his face towards Bilbo that saves his life. This forces Bilbo to look into Gollum's eyes and makes him realize he couldn't kill the creature.
Pretend you were in Bilbo’s shoes- would you spare Gollum? (Of course, you have not read LotR and have no idea of the importance of keeping Gollum alive)
I'd like to believe I would. I couldn't imagine myself killing a person, only for self-defense maybe, but this is not the case here.
You've done a great job, Starglass! Excellent questions! I hope you like my choice of screencaps! 
"Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake." - Henry David Thoreau
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Kim
Valinor
Apr 19 2014, 10:19pm
Post #4 of 12
(660 views)
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1. How much did you like this scene overall?
It was a great way to end this sequence of events.
2. How about in relation to other scenes in the movie? Or the other LotR movies?
Pretty iconic.
3. At what point do you think Bilbo realized that he really didn’t want to leave the dwarves? Was it only in that moment?
Actually, I think he was just thinking about how to get out of that situation in that moment. I don’t think he really thought about re-joining the dwarves until the next scene.
4. Bilbo seeing the dwarves running by is different from what happens in the book. What do you think of this change? Do you think it helps give Bilbo the proper desperation needed to think about killing Gollum?
I actually find this part a little frustrating in the way it was staged. Why didn’t Bilbo call out when he saw Gandalf? I would think at this point he was so scared and would grab at any chance for help.
5. What did you think about the acting in this crucial moment (from both Andy Serkis and Martin Freeman)? Were both actors able to successfully capture the emotions and thoughts of their characters? Any particular gestures/expressions/emotions that stood out?
I thought they were both outstanding. Definitely captured the emotions and thoughts of their characters. Gollum especially was so expressive, and pathetic when he almost says “Precious”. And seeing the tear on his cheek really makes you feel sorry for him, despite what we just saw in the previous scene.
6. What did you think about the cinematography in this part, specifically how the camera kept switching back and forth between Bilbo and Gollum's view? Was it effective in portraying the message?
I did like the view of the ring-world alternating with Gollum’s view.
7. Bilbo’s Mercy is such a pivotal moment not only in TH but also in relation to the LotR series as it sets things off and mirrors Frodo’s similar act of mercy. How well do you think this scene connects with similar ones in LotR (Frodo’s mercy towards Gollum, Gandalf and Frodo discussing Bilbo’s mercy etc.)? How is it different from these scenes in LotR?
I like how it slowed down in the middle of the action to just focus on Gollum and Bilbo. I think it was an effective set up for future scenes in LOTR.
8. Do you think the theme of mercy is presented more effectively in TH over LotR (or vice versa) or do you think both handle the theme well? Now that you’ve seen how it was done in TH is there anything you would change regarding the mercy theme in LotR?
I think they both handled it well. And this one set up the ones in LOTR, so I wouldn’t change anything.
9. Just curious, did anybody else besides me get choked up during this scene?
Yeah, it was pretty touching.
10. Did you find this change jarring (in a good or bad way)? (I know I would've liked a few more seconds spent on Bilbo's face before having him jump, but that's just me)
No, I think they spent enough time on it. You could see Bilbo realizing that Gollum really was a pathetic creature.
11. The scene ends with Gollum screaming “We hates it for ever!” and glaring into the camera. Do you think this was an effective end?
Well, it was actually a little over the top for me.
12. Any other cinematographic elements that you would like to mention?
The ring-world view was pretty cool, and it was interesting how they alternated between that and the real world view.
13. What do you think about the music and sound effects in this scene?
Effective. Very subtly underscored the moment.
Pretend you were in Bilbo’s shoes- would you spare Gollum? (Of course, you have not read LotR and have no idea of the importance of keeping Gollum alive)
Hmmm, I probably would have called out for help from Gandalf as soon as I saw him, so I wouldn’t have to make that decision.
14. Any other comments?
Oakenshield watch: not appearing in this scene. But we know it’s just moments away!
Thorin’s hair: sure looked lovely streaming out behind Thorin as he ran past.
Thanks for leading the discussion Starglass! Nice thought provoking questions. And no worries about the photos, I’m sure you’ll figure it out before the next time you lead. 
"Jagatud rõõm on topelt rõõm - a shared joy is a double joy". ~Estonian saying
“As such, you will address His Majesty as His Majesty, the Lord of Silver Fountains, the King of Carven Stone, the King Beneath the Mountain, the Lion of Erebor, the High King of the Dwarves, the True Treasure of Erebor, the Face that Launched 10,000 Sighs, or Thorin the Majestic..."
http://newboards.theonering.net/...forum_view_collapsed
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Riven Delve
Tol Eressea
Apr 20 2014, 9:07pm
Post #5 of 12
(604 views)
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No worries, Starglass--you're doing fine.
1. How much did you like this scene overall?
2. How about in relation to other scenes in the movie? Or the other LotR movies?
I like this scene, although honestly I find it hard to believe that Bilbo was really going to cut off Gollum's head in cold blood in the first place (despite this being a Peter Jackson movie  ). I think his native mercy would have been enough to stop him without the tear--but the tear was a nice touch. I also kind of wish it hadn't been in "ring vision" (although I understand why it had to be), because it's pretty distracting to me.
Of course it brings to mind the scene between Gandalf and Frodo in Moria in FOTR. It's the tie and the empathy that the Ringbearers feel for one another that always kind of tugs at my heart.
3. At what point do you think Bilbo realized that he really didn’t want to leave the dwarves? Was it only in that moment?
I don't know that Bilbo made that decision here--I think he was only trying to get out of the Goblin caves. And even once he did get out of the cave, I think he knows his only chance of survival at this point is hanging with the Dwarves and Gandalf. It's not until he hears Thorin dis him that his Tookish side asserts itself again.
4. Bilbo seeing the dwarves running by is different from what happens in the book. What do you think of this change? Do you think it helps give Bilbo the proper desperation needed to think about killing Gollum?
I don't mind the change. I didn't think the part in the book at the mouth of the cave was "essential." As for whether it helps give Bilbo desperation, yes, I think that is the reason for the change. Bilbo sees his chance of survival post-cave going by, and knows he's got to get by Gollum to catch up.
5. What did you think about the acting in this crucial moment (from both Andy Serkis and Martin Freeman)? Were both actors able to successfully capture the emotions and thoughts of their characters? Any particular gestures/expressions/emotions that stood out?
6. What did you think about the cinematography in this part, specifically how the camera kept switching back and forth between Bilbo and Gollum's view? Was it effective in portraying the message?
I think the acting is great--again, mostly nonverbals. The tear is perfect. I think it's important that we get to see things from not only Bilbo's perspective, but Gollum's too, so that we can understand where Bilbo's pity is coming from.
7. Bilbo’s Mercy is such a pivotal moment not only in TH but also in relation to the LotR series as it sets things off and mirrors Frodo’s similar act of mercy. How well do you think this scene connects with similar ones in LotR (Frodo’s mercy towards Gollum, Gandalf and Frodo discussing Bilbo’s mercy etc.)? How is it different from these scenes in LotR?
8. Do you think the theme of mercy is presented more effectively in TH over LotR (or vice versa) or do you think both handle the theme well? Now that you’ve seen how it was done in TH is there anything you would change regarding the mercy theme in LotR?
Yes, they all certainly connect. I think the scene with Gandalf at the troll cave was a bit much, and diminishes Bilbo's choice slightly, in that his mercy seemed to be partly at Gandalf's behest...but still it works. However, I think Frodo's mercy is much more touching, because it is clear he identifies more and more with Gollum as the trilogy goes on. That makes sense, though, because Frodo's errand with the Ring is much more intense than Bilbo's ever was.
9. Just curious, did anybody else besides me get choked up during this scene?
Yes, at least the first few times.
10. Did you find this change jarring (in a good or bad way)? (I know I would've liked a few more seconds spent on Bilbo's face before having him jump, but that's just me)
11. The scene ends with Gollum screaming “We hates it for ever!” and glaring into the camera. Do you think this was an effective end?
Yes, the change is jarring in a good way. I agree, a second or two more on Bilbo's face would have been good!
Gollum's "we hates it forever"...well, Frodo ends up with only nine fingers, doesn't he?  I think it's true, and good foreshadowing.
14. Any other comments?
A couple: As I mentioned above, the "ring vision" is a bit distracting for me here, but I can't think of a way around it!
I puzzled a long time about the kick Bilbo delivers to Gollum's face. I don't think this can have been intentional unless Bilbo is a martial artist...so why include it? I guess I've concluded that the idea is to make it impossible for Gollum to grab Bilbo as he jumps, because Bilbo can't really jump very high, being a Hobbit and all. I don't think I would have done it that way, though. I'd have come up with some way to have him get by otherwise.
Pretend you were in Bilbo’s shoes- would you spare Gollum? (Of course, you have not read LotR and have no idea of the importance of keeping Gollum alive)
Yes, I would have. I'm not a violent person, and despite knowing Gollum would have killed me in a heartbeat, I'd have just tried to get away.
Thanks for the good questions, Starglass!
“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”
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Riven Delve
Tol Eressea
Apr 20 2014, 9:11pm
Post #6 of 12
(597 views)
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Why didn’t Bilbo call out when he saw Gandalf?
I would think at this point he was so scared and would grab at any chance for
help.
Good question, Kim! Maybe because he was afraid Gandalf would be too far gone and wouldn't be able to hear, and then he'd give himself away to Gollum?
Thorin’s hair: sure looked lovely streaming out behind Thorin as he ran past.
Hmm, I believe a rewatch is in order for RD.
“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”
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Starglass
Rivendell
Apr 21 2014, 4:50pm
Post #7 of 12
(577 views)
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Thanks for sharing pettytyrant101!
[In reply to]
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You always give your honest critique of the scenes and I enjoy reading what you have to say.
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Starglass
Rivendell
Apr 21 2014, 4:54pm
Post #8 of 12
(588 views)
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Most of the screen caps that you put in were ones I was thinking of putting in myself. Great minds think alike!
Thanks for sharing- great thoughts as usual! I especially like your point about how Gollum turning to face Bilbo was pivotal. Very true!
Oh, and sorry that I missed commenting on your CHOW last week. It was a very busy week, but I did go through a few days ago and read through all the responses.
(This post was edited by Starglass on Apr 21 2014, 4:56pm)
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Starglass
Rivendell
Apr 21 2014, 4:58pm
Post #9 of 12
(580 views)
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Nice to hear your thoughts as always! I was planning on finding a screen cap of Thorin running past for your viewing pleasure, that is, to help with your analysis, but you didn't need my help!
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Starglass
Rivendell
Apr 21 2014, 5:06pm
Post #10 of 12
(574 views)
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I enjoyed hearing your thoughts! I especially liked how you linked Frodo's and Bilbo's mercy in several of the answers. That theme is definitely one of my favorites of the stories.
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BlackFox
Half-elven
Apr 21 2014, 6:14pm
Post #11 of 12
(570 views)
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"Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake." - Henry David Thoreau
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Kim
Valinor
Apr 21 2014, 10:12pm
Post #12 of 12
(563 views)
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Yeah, screencaps are unnecessary at this point, it's all in my head!
"Jagatud rõõm on topelt rõõm - a shared joy is a double joy". ~Estonian saying
“As such, you will address His Majesty as His Majesty, the Lord of Silver Fountains, the King of Carven Stone, the King Beneath the Mountain, the Lion of Erebor, the High King of the Dwarves, the True Treasure of Erebor, the Face that Launched 10,000 Sighs, or Thorin the Majestic..."
http://newboards.theonering.net/...forum_view_collapsed
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