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boldog
Rohan
Apr 17 2014, 12:04pm
Post #1 of 16
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There has to be more reason for Azogs vengeance upon Thorin
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One thing in this trilogy that im most interested in, and most confused about is Azogs motivation for hating the dwarves, and in particular thorin.
We all know that Thorin hates Azog for many reasons. He killed and mutilated his grandfather, he probably captured and tortured Thrain, he infested Moria with orcs. (movieverse)
But what is Azogs motivation? It seems a bit silly that he is going through so much trouble and resources to just gain vengeance upon Thorin, for just a severed arm! He puts so much forces into the hunt for Thorin, sends messages even to men, and even risks his own son, in fullfiling his desire.
There has to be more motivaton in there for Azog. He swore to wipe out the line of Durin before Azanulbizar. Why? Did he just wake up one day and thought he might try and wipe out a whole lineage? Why the dwarves anyway? Why not Elves or men?
It seems clear to me in this trilogy that the Orcs and Dwarves are the most bitter of enemies, and they are both the sworn enemy of each race. Orcs hate Dwarves above all, and Dwarves hate Orcs above all. Even Bolg has an appetite for Dwarf blood.
So in conclusion it must be clear that there is some history Between Azog/Bolg/Orcs and Thorin/Line of Durin/Dwarves hate. I personally believe it was an act done to Azog many years ago, that has made him hate the dwarves. particularly those of the royal lineage.
I hope that PJ eleborates a little bit more on this reason for Azogs hate and determination. Wouldnt it be better if they build up Azog and Thorins blood fued, so that we can see both sides of the story not just the heroes perspective? This would work well with their final duel, where we can clearly see their hate play out, and it can leave the audience with a two sided fight, not just a one side/good side point of view.
Thoughts?? Coming from TORN number 1 Azog fan 
I believe that Azog and Bolg are possibly the only two orcs who may be an exception to the typical evil nature of an orc. Azog had brought up his son, well enough that he actually acknowledges him as his own son. That is a first for any orc. And Bolg sets out to march upon Erebor in vengeance of his fathers death. How many orcs will Try and avenge another dead orc? Most will just forget about the dead one. This gives me hope that Orcs, have some traits of good in them, even if it is small aspects.
(This post was edited by boldog on Apr 17 2014, 12:07pm)
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Angharad73
Rohan
Apr 17 2014, 1:15pm
Post #2 of 16
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...that great a fan of Azog, but I still have to agree with you.
It seems so random - Azog wants to wipe out the line of Durin. Why? Just because he can? A case of beard-envy? 
I can somewhat see why he's not so fond of Thorin now - what with the arm chopping and all that - but how did that whole feud actually start? The Dwarves must have done something to him or his family to trigger the whole thing. Maybe they killed his father or something like that? It would have to be something like that, I think, provided Orcs do have such family bonds.
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SafeUnderHill
Rohan
Apr 17 2014, 1:38pm
Post #3 of 16
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My thoughts - I don't see an issue
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In AUJ it seems he just wants revenge on Thorin after being essentially defeated by him outside Moria. I could see why you would think this isn't enough of a reason.
In DOS, however, it is revealed that Azog is working for the Necromancer. So part of the reason they pursued the company in AUJ could be that Sauron ordered the company to be killed (his motives are that he wants to use Smaug as the ultimate weapon, so the dragon must stay alive), after it seemed word slipped about their quest (remember Gandalfs line "Who did you tell about the quest beyond your kin?").
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 17 2014, 2:05pm
Post #4 of 16
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It isn't just Thorin personally.
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The Dwarves of the Line of Durin have dominated the region of Rhovanion for centuries--in Moria, at Erebor and in the Iron Hills. If I remember right, Durin I is said to have awakened at Mount Gundabad. This is a long-standing feud that boils down to, "You're trying to take back what I have fairly stolen."
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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BlackFox
Half-elven
Apr 17 2014, 2:16pm
Post #5 of 16
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Azog doesn't strike me as someone who'd need much reason
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Azog's personality is excellently described in the LOTR Wiki: "Azog is depicted in the Hobbit film trilogy as the iron-fisted, pitiless, cynical, bitter, malicious, arrogant and merciless chieftain of the orcs of Moria and leader of the warg riders. He is portrayed to be cunning, ferocious and very, very ruthless, with a bitter and hateful obsession for vengeance against Thorin Oakenshield for cutting off his arm in battle. He is also shown to be extremely sadistic, gleefully mocking Thorin in their second confrontation by saying that his father "reeked of the smell of fear" (which apparently made Thorin think that Azog killed his father) to goad him into attacking. He also seemed to enjoy watching the wargs attacking the dwarves. His ruthlessness is displayed when he murders his own allies when they displease him. A vengeful, megalomaniacal psychopath, Azog is easily frustrated, even by his Master and by his own followers. He is extremely hot-tempered and elitist. He is also highly intelligent, displaying excellent hunting skills and experience in combat. He is also vindictive, highly idealistic and unfailingly loyal to Sauron." (http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Azog#Personality)
I've highlighted the parts I feel most vividly describe Azog's nature. A sadistic psychopath, I imagine, hardly needs a lot of reason to hate someone. Hatred is in his blood.
"Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake." - Henry David Thoreau
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MorgolKing
Rivendell
Apr 17 2014, 2:47pm
Post #6 of 16
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There won't be a reason...sloppy script writing
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Almost every "addition" in the Hobbit is sloppy and full of plot holes and lacking in reason.
Do not expect an explanation in the third movie -- there won't be one.
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iduna
Rivendell
Apr 17 2014, 2:48pm
Post #7 of 16
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In AUJ, Azog's motivation seemed a little thin. Azog's hatred of Thorin seemed logical enough because Thorin cut off his arm, but why was his hatred directed at the whole line of Durin? How did he even know who was in the line of Durin, when there was a sea of dwarves fighting at Moria?
However, the comment by black fox about Azog's arrogant and psychopathic nature is very helpful. I suppose if he's that unhinged, Azog doesn't need a whole lot of reasons for his actions.
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Name
Rohan
Apr 17 2014, 2:59pm
Post #8 of 16
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Classic "Hatfields and McCoys" type of feud. Not sure what the big question here is. Seems logical enough to me.
How many Tolkien fans does it take to change a light bulb?
"Change? Oh my god, what do you mean change?! Never, never, never......"
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dormouse
Half-elven
Apr 17 2014, 3:49pm
Post #9 of 16
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The Azogs of this world - real as well as imagined - don't need motivation for what they do, and I'd rather not see time given over to an invented story about how Thorin's great-grandfather shot Azog's pet bunny. It would take us further away from the story of The Hobbit
Tolkien's orcs are brutal because they were brutalised. It's all they know and that's their tragedy, but it puts them beyond the reach of help or understanding - and it's all the motivation the story needs for Azog.
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Glassary
Rivendell
Apr 17 2014, 4:21pm
Post #10 of 16
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At this point it doesn't matter why....it fits the plot.
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What I would love to know is why Azog vowed to wipe out the line of Durin?
When Balin told the story it was interesting but an additional sentence or two to
explain this would help.
That type of vendetta goes back a ways and isn't simply over Moria or even his
arm.
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TheSexyBeard
Lorien
Apr 17 2014, 4:34pm
Post #11 of 16
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He's an orc, killing comes with his occupation.
But in all honesty, he's a brutal warlord, swearing to wipe of out the line of Durin is probably part of a boast to demonstrate his power. What better way to show power by wiping out the most powerful line of dwarves?
I think getting his arm cut off his a legitimate reason to want revenge on Thorin.
Yes, my username is terrible.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Apr 17 2014, 4:49pm
Post #12 of 16
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Cinematically speaking, the most likely reason is a romantic triangle.
I'm thinking the third member is the Balrog's daughter, Gilda, famous for her song "Put the Blame on Flame".
It would explain a lot.
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https://www.facebook.com/slatesforsarah
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BlackFox
Half-elven
Apr 17 2014, 5:18pm
Post #13 of 16
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"Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake." - Henry David Thoreau
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Apr 18 2014, 7:52pm
Post #15 of 16
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...I doubt they are going to go into why Azog "swore to wipe out Durin's line" or whatever it was. Even though I feel PJ has completely botched this whole Azog/Thror/Moria thing, it really doesn't matter much in the big picture. (If you recall, the reason Azog killed Thror in the books was because Thror, maddened by his Ring of Power and accompanied only by his squire, had decided to enter Moria). Tolkien's version of the events make sense, Jackson's mangled version not so much. But it's not that important to the bigger picture, so there's no need to explain it.
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Cirashala
Valinor
Apr 19 2014, 5:03am
Post #16 of 16
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It seems pretty logical to me that the person with a guard surrounding them who is the only person in the sea of dwarves wearing a crown that said person is probably the king
And Thorin's reaction to Azog holding Thror's head up in victory would be MORE than enough to verify the Thorin/Thror kinship to Azog, IMO.
Makes me wonder if he figured out Fili and Kili's kinship to Thorin when they (and Dwalin) came running in defense of him during the frying pan scene  Maybe not specifics (probably assumed they were sons, rather than nephews- they do greatly resemble him) but there's a decent bet he now knows they're related (but then again the orcs just left Kili and Fili when they found out Thorin was gone in Laketown, so who knows?). And he probably would have remembered Dwalin from the battle, as he ran just behind Thorin along with Balin in their charge. But Fili and Kili would have been obviously too young to have fought at Azanulbizar.
As much as I hope their kinship hasn't been discovered by Azog, I would think he'd be a pretty stupid orc (which he clearly isn't) to not have put two and two together by now.
(This post was edited by Cirashala on Apr 19 2014, 5:04am)
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Yup! That's it! //
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