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TORn AMATEUR SYMPOSIUM Day Three: "The 'New Man' from Morris to Tolkien: Masculinity, Identity and the Reinvention of Medieval Honor in Early Fantasy Literature," by Chris Larimore
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TORn Amateur Symposium
Bree


Apr 17 2014, 4:08am

Post #1 of 56 (4396 views)
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TORn AMATEUR SYMPOSIUM Day Three: "The 'New Man' from Morris to Tolkien: Masculinity, Identity and the Reinvention of Medieval Honor in Early Fantasy Literature," by Chris Larimore Can't Post

Welcome to April 2014 TORn Amateur Symposium, the third TAS!

We are very pleased to present the next essay for TAS3:

click here to view "The 'New Man' from Morris to Tolkien: Masculinity, Identity and the Reinvention of Medieval Honor in Early Fantasy Literature," by Chris Larimore


Abstract

In the first half of the twentieth century, many social and political changes affected individuals and societies alike; the effects of two World Wars, political shifts in ideology, and the perceptions of masculinity/femininity were called in to question, with people looking for answers outside themselves. Naturally, some members of society turned to fiction for these answers, and so it fell on a select few to bring a sense of unity, hope and purpose to the lives of their readers. In this essay, I will illustrate the different ways in which writers of fantasy literature – including William Morris JRR Tolkien, and Robert Howard – reinvented traditional honor codes, social structure and unity, in an attempt to make sense of the world as it then was.





To view an essay, please click on the link above.

Our authors have written essays and analyses that are concerned, in some way, with the legendarium of John Ronald Reuel Tolkien. These essays may be philosophic opinions, scientific theories, or analytical approaches to understanding or highlighting some facet of Tolkien's writings and world. These pieces are written with the goal of amateur scholarship at their core - thus inspiring our Symposium title. Authors may choose to include citations or footnotes, but they are by no means required. Keeping in mind the dual spirit of enjoyment and inquiry that we believe in (as much as we value cheer and song), and which is of paramount important to both the TAS team and our authors, we fully encourage discussion of the essays presented. We hope you enjoy it as much as we enjoy posting it. The TAS is open for discussion, and any comments, questions or thought you wish to share about this essay can be posted in this response to this thread.

We have quite a full schedule of essays - essays will posted every other day. The schedule can be found here.

So please, go forth and enjoy all of the works we have posted for this 2014 April Session. The entire TAS Team, (Elaen32, Brethil and DanielLB), is both delighted and proud to present the essays our TAS members have crafted, relating their interests and skills to the world of JRRT that we all love; a world most intricately crafted, and one that "takes hold of us, and never let's go."
Smile


(This post was edited by dernwyn on Apr 21 2014, 2:44am)


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 17 2014, 2:13pm

Post #2 of 56 (3979 views)
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Not the vision of masculinity that speculative fiction is often assumed to promote... :) [In reply to] Can't Post

What an interesting subject, Chris. Really enjoyed reading this (and hadn't realised that Morris was a fantasy author, along with his other interests!). As a result of reading, a number of ideas are rattling around my head, so this response is something of a compilation, I hope you don't mind!

The picture of masculinity from your three chosen fantasists is not the one that speculative fiction is often accused of promoting, is it? I mean the picture of buff, ripped action-hero warriors who are in contrast to passive, helpless, scantily-clad females always in need of protection. ('When men were real men, and women were real grateful' as my dad used to say to parody that kind of approach).

I suppose - seeing here a bit of a link with Swordwhale's essay which appeared earlier this week - that authors of speculative fiction can end up indirectly telling us a lot about how they view the world, or how they think the world ought to be. And we readers (or viewers, listeners) identify or do not identify with those characters. Probably that is one aspect of this observation:


Quote
"[As an author of fiction] I give readers a chance to try on other lives, to take into themselves memories of events they did not personally experience; and I shape those virtual memories with my own interpretation of their causes and effects, of what matters and does not matter. In this way, readers allow something of my own mind and heart into their lives; or, having sampled it, they reject that bit of me and reach different conclusions. But it is in this way that fiction becomes perhaps the deepest communication between human beings, because we adopt someone else's story into our own fund of memory, embracing it, to one degree or another , as our own."

Orson Scott Card (author)

Interviewed in Author Spotlight feature, Lightspeed Magazine issue 30, November 2012
(the italics are mine)


I was also reminded about oa recent thread on these pages, exploring teh idea of reading The Hobbit as if Bilbo was female ( http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=695984#695984 ). It was graced by a great point from Squire that Tolkien heroes tend to be androgynous in their heroism - that is, the heroic aspects of their behaviour are neither stereotypically male or female (http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=696064#696064 ). Do you have any thoughts on how/whether that dovetails with the scope of your essay?

I was also wondering whether you'd care to venture further into a possibly very big subject area: your three authors were active in the period overlapping the arrival of modern feminism (depending, I suppose, on how one chooses to define it). At least, here is a list of your authors, and some notable feminists (ordered by date of birth):


  • Sarah Emily Davies (English feminist, suffragist and principally remembered as being the co-founder and first Mistress of Girton College, Cambridge University, the first college in England to educate women. 22 April 1830 – 13 July 1921)

  • William Morris (24 March 1834 – 3 October 1896)

  • Emmeline Pankhurst ( political activist and leader of the British suffragette movement who helped women win the right to vote. 15 July 1858 – 14 June 1928)

  • John Ronald Reuel Tolkien, CBE 3 January 1892 – 2 September 1973)

  • Robert Ervin Howard (January 22, 1906 – June 11, 1936)

  • Simone de Beauvoir (Among many achievements, author, in 1949 of The Second Sex, a ‘foundational tract of contemporary feminism.’ 9 January 1908 – 14 April 1986)


(info from the Wikipedia entries for these people)

I would be very interested to discuss how, if at all, we think the social changes around feminism have affected concepts of masculinity (and femininity) in the fantasy fiction chosen as examples here.

I was also wondering - If we were to choose a fourth, more contemporary author to add to Morris, Howard and Tolkien as authors who have addressed ideas of masculinity, then who?

~~~~~~

"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 17 2014, 5:25pm

Post #3 of 56 (3960 views)
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Comitatus and the Chivalric in Rohan [In reply to] Can't Post

Great read Chris! Thank you for sharing this with TORn!Cool

As I read, one of the things that seem to strike me is that the ideal of comitatus seems to form the backbone of the culture of the Rohirrim. The feudal type of division of lands and responsibilities based upon service, and the bond that this creates between the nobles and the person of the King seems to be a sort of transparency. Interesting that their culture is a bit of the antithesis of the Chivalric: the women have been left behind so often, the kingdom stripped of men (like the view of England in the First World War that you describe, and likely the Second as well) that they are capable of defending the realm as the last resort. Indeed Eowyn is more than merely capable...in her character arc is the bas-relief of the new masculinity: she too travels a doubtful journey through fear, combat, despair and then discovers her true path at the apex of it all.

Bilbo as a conscription allegory - fascinating! As well as his later instinctual sort of ambassadorship in forcing a diplomatic stalemate between the opposing forces at the Mountain - which has the unintended effect of having the two sides arrayed in positions to react to the true enemy once they show up before committing themselves to a destructive battle. The commentary on how the 'smallest person' made a huge difference with the delaying that the negotiating required; it makes quite the difference there and many years later as well.

The Third TORn Amateur Symposium kicks off this Sunday, April 13th, in the Reading Room. Come and join us for Tolkien-inspired writings!





**CoH Rem. Just sayin' **


(This post was edited by Brethil on Apr 17 2014, 5:25pm)


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 17 2014, 8:37pm

Post #4 of 56 (3929 views)
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Conscripted hobbits? [In reply to] Can't Post

I, too, thought that a thought-provoking word to use.

Technically, Bilbo is a volunteer - but he's caught up, despite himself, in the exciting prospect of adventure. Maybe there is 'applicability' there for those young men forming long jingoistic queues and swamping the 1914 recruitment offices. It's an intriguing thought. Though 'applicability' (rather than full analogy) I think: in that it's a parallel readers can draw if they want, rather than one forced upon readers by the author.

The members of the Fellowship as conscripts? Again, not in a legal sense: Elrond dispatches them thus:


Quote
"The Ring-bearer is setting out on the Quest of Mount Doom. On him alone is any charge laid: neither to cast away the Ring, nor to deliver it to any servant of the Enemy nor indeed to let any handle it, save members of the Company and Council, and only then in greatest need. The others go with him as free companions, to help him on his way. You may tarry, or come back, or turn aside into other paths, as chance allows. The further you go, the less easy it will be to withdraw; yet no oath or bond is laid on you to go further than you will. For you do not yet know the strength of your hearts, and you cannot foresee what each may meet upon the road."


This of course is far from satisfying for Gimli, and a contest of proverbs ensues.

What 'conscripts' them all is the sense that, like it or not there is a job to do, and they'd better get on with it. There's that sense of obligation for many of the characters, even if (Boromir, in contrast to Faramir) they enjoy all this manly martial stuff.

~~~~~~

"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Khim
Bree


Apr 17 2014, 9:56pm

Post #5 of 56 (3939 views)
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Was There Medieval Honor? [In reply to] Can't Post

Chris,

I enjoyed your post very much, and it occurred to me to provide a robust response, after some research, and glances at some of my own relevant material. Alas, as I informed the TAS task force I’m on vacation on the Outer Banks and cannot refer to my books. I am more inclined to refresh my beer glass, but I can’t resist shooting some feed back from the hip. Forgive any errors or misrememberings on my part.

I have read a little Morris, less Howard, but plenty of Tolkien. Your description of their fiction as a response to, and possible addressing of changes in societal norms reminds me of Shippey’s notion that many great works of fiction of the last century resulted from their author’s attempts to deal with personal trauma, especially the World Wars. For example, Vonnegut’s “Slaughterhouse 5” being his attempt to deal with his experience in Dresden, after the fire bombing. Shippey’s contention is that many writers use fantasy to address real but seemingly larger than life issues, seeking catharsis through fiction. Tolkien being the greatest manifestation of this phenomenon. To place JRR above Joyce no doubt puts him at odds with most literary academics. I think this was expounded in “Tolkien: Author of the Century.”

With a sense of personal irony I find that while appreciating your essay most highly so far in this TAS, I also have the most reservations about it. I hope this isn’t because I have already refreshed my beer a few times. My primary concern is conflating literary and literal norms within the historical context you discuss. I think I have more faith in the notions of Comitatus then Chivalry as genuine reflections of modes of behavior, admitting that I cannot substantiate that opinion. I say this because I believe that even in Medieval times knights adhering to the codes of Chivalry was as much a fiction as it is today. I guess since perception is reality and we are talking about fictional reflections and projections of what reality was/is, it is hard to know what we are really talking about, or is that just me :)

It also occurs to me that by commending Offa for standing by Byrhtnoth, sacrificing himself as a point of honor, neglects the fact that Bryhtnoth may not deserve it. As a point of honor Bryhtnoth let the enemy cross the land bridge, even though the narrow egress would have provided an advantage to his overwhelmed forces. Might may not be right, but right might sometimes be bad.

If I have a point it is that it is difficult to establish the relationship between what were genuine societal conditions, and/or ills, and how these authors perceived and reacted to them. Where I unwaveringly concur with you is that these authors, through their fiction, projected their ideals. Most importantly to me is that Tolkien’s projected ideals relating to Comitatus and Chivalry resonate, especially the Norse notion of doing right without the expectation of reward...acting honorably for it’s own sake.

I thank you for your participation, forgive me my response. To quote Vyvyan from “The Young Ones,” Yeah! I had to! I was drunk!

I am Khim akin to Mim.

(This post was edited by Altaira on May 25 2014, 5:03pm)


simplyaven
Grey Havens


Apr 18 2014, 2:07am

Post #6 of 56 (3928 views)
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What makes you think so? [In reply to] Can't Post

I am curious: what makes you think the knights didn't adhere to the codes of chivalry?

Middle earth recipes archive

I believe


Meneldor
Valinor


Apr 18 2014, 3:38am

Post #7 of 56 (3921 views)
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When I was studying 14th century Italian martial arts, [In reply to] Can't Post

one of the books that was required reading for us was Chivalry by Maurice Keen. Keen makes the case for chivalry being considered the norm for the behavior of a knight and cites many period writings to support his position. Certainly there were also many who failed to live up to the ideal, but the ideal was widely known and accepted as the model of knightly behavior.

Wonderful essay, Chris!


They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters; These see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep.

(This post was edited by Meneldor on Apr 18 2014, 3:39am)


Khim
Bree


Apr 18 2014, 4:47am

Post #8 of 56 (3929 views)
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Sensational Headline [In reply to] Can't Post

I may have overstated my case a bit to generate interest, which seems to be common practice on news sites these days. And I wasn't kidding about having a few beers, either. But I have also been a student of history, and wished to point out that using stories, especially those concerning courtly behavior among knights, when discussing society and gender roles, can be dangerous.

Malory wasn't Clemens writing Huckleberry Finn, he was interpreting myth in an idealized setting. Let's just say it might be better to be a woman in a story than in real life sometimes, especially if you are not wealthy. I think I saw a show hosted by Terry Jones, of Monty Python fame, that provides a less idealized portrait of Medieval Lives. That being said I do believe that these stories accurately depict the prevailing mores of their time. In fact, this is a premise I used in my paper soon to grace this forum.

My belabored point is simply that there are stories and there is history, and they are not the same thing. And it is a minor point related to an exceptional essay that I thoroughly enjoyed!

I am Khim akin to Mim.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 18 2014, 8:11am

Post #9 of 56 (3923 views)
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Fantasy as a Mirror of History [In reply to] Can't Post

“Here is the Mirror of Fantasy,” she said. “I have brought you here so you may look in it, if you will.”

The air was very still, and the dell was dark, and the Elf-lady beside him was tall and pale. “What shall we look for, and what shall we see?” asked the Reader, filled with awe.

“Many things I can command the Mirror to reveal,” she answered. “But the Mirror will also show things unbidden, and those are often stranger and more profitable than things which we wish to behold. What you will see, if you leave the Mirror free to work, I cannot tell. For it shows things that were, and things that are, and things that yet may be. But which it is that he sees, even the wisest cannot always tell. Do you wish to look?”

"...Remember that the Mirror shows many things, and not all have yet come to pass. Some never come to be, unless those that behold the visions turn aside from their path to prevent them. The Mirror is dangerous as a guide to History."


Hmm - better than my usual prose - but haven't I read something a bit like that before? Wink

What I mean is, the fantasy author might start out by wanting to reflect how things are in reality, how things should be, or just how things could be different. Some stories don't go beyond that - the author clearly has a point to make, and clearly expects the reader to understand this. But some of the ones I like best dig out surprising stuff on many levels. It's one of the things I currently like best about Tolkien
:

"'Are these allegories or histories?' asked the reader, looking at them with wonder. 'I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the Professor of English Literature. 'They are fair stories, and the web is good, for it was made in this land. They are Faerie stories certainly, if that is what you mean. Leaf and branch, water and stone: they have the hue and beauty of all these things under the twilight of Faerie that we love; for we put the thought of all that we love into all that we make.'"

~~~~~~

"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


simplyaven
Grey Havens


Apr 18 2014, 12:39pm

Post #10 of 56 (3896 views)
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Same here [In reply to] Can't Post

Although I studied phylology, part of it is, of course, reading a vast amount of romances, books, poems, manuscripts and whatever has ever been written. LOL I very well remember that French sources were quoting basically the same you wrote and as I liked the French writing much, I read extensively and this code of chivalry was followed all the way till the Revolution although, in my opinion, it still shows today. British "gentleman like" behaviour is not Jane Austen's invention but was also part of the knights culture, then of the court, etc. Naturally, out of millions of people there will always be a thousand or two who won't adhere to any codes but it doesn't change the general picture.

Middle earth recipes archive

I believe


simplyaven
Grey Havens


Apr 18 2014, 12:47pm

Post #11 of 56 (3903 views)
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But stories are not always pure imagination [In reply to] Can't Post

They are often based on history or folklore or myth - all instruments to preserve the past. In all of them there is truth. I just replied to Meneldor above, I'm a phylologist and my knowledge comes from reading much and about all times. There are numerous proofs that the code was adhered to by more than those who refused to consider it.

Medieval times and even the times that came after had their charm but they were not easier than today's life. However, there were certain aspects of these times I wish had stayed unchanged. Chivalry being one of them. I am a woman and I do appreciate a certain behaviour which seems to be nearly extinct these days. very sad.

Middle earth recipes archive

I believe


Escapist
Gondor


Apr 18 2014, 1:01pm

Post #12 of 56 (3910 views)
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That comes close [In reply to] Can't Post

and it all depends on context, I would say.

Certainly, that bit smacks of being lifted right off the page! And in this case:
  • Perspective is matching
  • Main character (Galadriel) is in the same relative position to the perspective character
  • Questions and use of the device (mirror) are so similar as to make the change of name insufficient for distancing from the obvious related material

In such a case, I would say:
  • If it is so close to source material you don't have rights to, it should be left out of the story if possible
  • If such an excerpt were to be found to be integral to the story (ie dropping it takes away from the story too much) then the story should probably remain "fan-fiction" or "adaptation" or something along those lines.

All of this could be different if:
  • There was a mirror used but the perspective or main character (Galadriel) was not used or was in a different relationship to the perspective characters
  • It so happened that this particular episode could be dropped from the story without affecting the rest - then I am of the persuasion "if thine eye offends thee then pluck it out lest the whole be tossed into the fire" etc. (not an exact quote there)
  • The excerpt in question bearing similarity could be found to have some other common source: for instance, how closely does this smack of the Lady of the Lake or something like that? In this case, I don't think it is close enough to "The Lady of the Lake", so no luck for this particular case. Other things in Tolkien do have some roots in older stuff that is "safer" than this. Oh wait - I just remembered now, there was something ... in ... is it the Edda? No I don't think it was poetic ... but there was a knight and a lady with a mirror and it involved water ... anyway - if someone were to find that and if it did match up well enough, it might become "safe" for them - but if it existed nonetheless but the author didn't "find it" then they still wouldn't be "safe" - at least this is my thinking of it


If all the world's a stage then who's writing the script?


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 18 2014, 2:04pm

Post #13 of 56 (3909 views)
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Thanks! [In reply to] Can't Post

The text in blue was actually a Tolkien quote In which I changed a couple of words as a humorous way of making my point. I wasn't really seeking to pass it off Smile

~~~~~~

"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Apr 18 2014, 3:13pm

Post #14 of 56 (3907 views)
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A (neglected) rule rather than the exception? [In reply to] Can't Post

Perhaps it was the accepted ideal, however, the consensus of social opinion might not have carried the weight to support it by itself. Maybe every knew the right thing to do, but few actually did with regularity. Besides, gossip and scandal are so much more interesting!Laugh

I say there are hypocrites wherever/whenever one goes!! ShockedIs there no escaping them!?Sly

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 18 2014, 5:23pm

Post #15 of 56 (3882 views)
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Dang, I thought you were like a re-born Durin [In reply to] Can't Post

and we had a re-born Tolkien in our midst, writing something new but in the same style. Couldn't you fill us in on life in Gondor after Aragorn took over, for example? I mean, it would be canon and all, and you know we like that.


Khim
Bree


Apr 18 2014, 7:09pm

Post #16 of 56 (3879 views)
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Communication Breakdown [In reply to] Can't Post

My desire to provoke discussion may have backfired. It was not my intention to refute Chris’ paper, far from it. I loved it. I merely wished to suggest caution when using mythology and fiction to comment on history and society.

Let me give an example of what I mean. I once read a book concerning life within several of the prominent Greek city-states of antiquity. In short the following sociological problem occurred. Within households there were male and female wings. Men generally didn’t associated with their sons until they came of age at about 12 or 13. As youths the males lived with the women and girls. The problem was that women at this time were, for lack of a better term, oppressed. Women were under very strict control, almost no freedom of movement, could not own property, etc. The only time women had power over men was when they were very young, and they took advantage of it, with two significant results. Men exhibited a latent fear of women, and a desire to control them. So adult males treated women badly, women treated boys badly, and the cycled continued.

The book argued that that cycle helped explain the prevalence of powerful and dangerous females in Greek mythology, despite their limited power and influence within their society. A bit simplified, and certainly subject to debate, but I hope you get the idea. These discussions are not always as clear cut as they seem.

P.S. I guess I’ve eliminated any possibility of a free pass when my paper hits the fan :)

I am Khim akin to Mim.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 18 2014, 7:59pm

Post #17 of 56 (3862 views)
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Thanks for the Greek reference [In reply to] Can't Post

It's always puzzled me that there were strong females like Athena and the Furies, yet women in real life were otherwise absent from the public domain, unlike the more liberated women in Roman society. That family dynamic about women controlling boys would help explain what's always been a mystery to me. I'm sure things varied from family to family as they always do, but things still add up to a "culture" even with all the variations.

Otherwise, don't worry. Your paper isn't dead on arrival. I'm sure it's completely wrong and probably plagiarized and full of libel, but I'll give it a fair hearing before saying so. (Just kidding!!!) Smile


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 18 2014, 8:13pm

Post #18 of 56 (3874 views)
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I think you have a fair shot at writing the Parallel Universe! [In reply to] Can't Post

You have a flair for this sort of thing you know!
"The thought of all that we love into all that we make" - nice summation I think of why JRRT works for so many of us; we find our own allegories in the works versus being trammeled into a crafted one.

The Third TORn Amateur Symposium kicks off this Sunday, April 13th, in the Reading Room. Come and join us for Tolkien-inspired writings!





**CoH Rem. Just sayin' **


CuriousG
Half-elven


Apr 18 2014, 8:38pm

Post #19 of 56 (3849 views)
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Advice for writers [In reply to] Can't Post

The cliche advice for writers is "write about what you know." I think people ought to add, "write about what you know and love." JRR loved music, trees, history, language, stars, and many other things and wove that love into his stories, making us readers fall under the same spell. I have read books where the authors clearly knew what they were talking/writing about, but they didn't get emotionally invested in their world, characters, or plot, and their work was consequently unsatisfying.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 18 2014, 8:55pm

Post #20 of 56 (3851 views)
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I'm glad you liked it! [In reply to] Can't Post

I wanted to make exactly that point:

In Reply To
nice summation I think of why JRRT works for so many of us; we find our own allegories in the works versus being trammeled into a crafted one.


And realised that those texts from Mirror of Galdriel made it very well (with a couple of word changes to heighten the effect).

I don't claim that this is what Tolkien wants us to think of when reading the chapter: this use of it is itself an example of applicability. Snazzy.

: I agree with Khim's post that it's vain to look to fantasy for accurate representation of history. And I agree with his further post that the original essay never said so, and that he's not refuting the argument. So in Blue Wizard style, that goes:


"Hi!" cried Sam in an outraged voice. "There's that Ted Sandyman a-wearing a kind of smock which has three bands of smocking across the chest and which therefore is not authentic for England in this period!"

He seemed to be growing hot, and curls of steam were rising from his ears.

"Do not touch the Author!" said the Lady Galadriel gently.


~~~~~~

"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 18 2014, 9:01pm

Post #21 of 56 (3857 views)
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I think fiction is an interesting commentary on the society it comes from, but has not to be taken too literally [In reply to] Can't Post

(And by saying that, I'm agreeing with the premise of the essay, and also Khim's note of caution- not refutation- of it).

~~~~~~

"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


BlackFox
Half-elven


Apr 18 2014, 9:08pm

Post #22 of 56 (3838 views)
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Words to live (write?) by! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The cliche advice for writers is "write about what you know." I think people ought to add, "write about what you know and love."



"Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake." - Henry David Thoreau


noWizardme
Half-elven


Apr 18 2014, 9:12pm

Post #23 of 56 (3850 views)
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'When I was studying 14th century Italian martial arts'- gotta be one of the cooler post titles we've seen. :) // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

~~~~~~

"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 18 2014, 10:51pm

Post #24 of 56 (3849 views)
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Dorothy Sayers writes something to this effect [In reply to] Can't Post


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I think fiction is an interesting commentary on the society it comes from, but has not to be taken too literally


in Have His Carcase; with Harriet observing a Victorian costume-evening - all fun, if taken as just fun and one has one's own bank account and independence at the end of the evening. The same could perhaps be said of the romanticized Chivalric notions; a very welcome bit of civility in our (often uncivilized) day because within our extant society are political and economic (for the most part, and I am speaking of primarily democratic nations) equalities. So the rest is fun to fantasize about, with the enjoyable being moved forward into our conception of the age, but one sex as the chattels of another....not so fun in the entire, everyday spectrum of life.

The Third TORn Amateur Symposium kicks off this Sunday, April 13th, in the Reading Room. Come and join us for Tolkien-inspired writings!





**CoH Rem. Just sayin' **


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 18 2014, 10:53pm

Post #25 of 56 (3828 views)
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Agreed. I am always cheered by Meneldor's ambient coolness. // [In reply to] Can't Post

'When I was studying 14th century Italian martial arts'- gotta be one of the cooler post titles we've seen. :)


Cool

The Third TORn Amateur Symposium kicks off this Sunday, April 13th, in the Reading Room. Come and join us for Tolkien-inspired writings!





**CoH Rem. Just sayin' **


(This post was edited by Brethil on Apr 18 2014, 10:54pm)

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