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boldog
Rohan
Apr 16 2014, 8:45am
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will we ever get a hint to middle earth religions in the films?
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One thing we have never heard about in the films so far is the faith of the people.
I would really love to hear some mention of this. Surely all the characers we have met arent atheists. They believe in the gods of valinor. Could there be a temple in laketown or something? I dont know what are your thoughts on this?
I believe that Azog and Bolg are possibly the only two orcs who may be an exception to the typical evil nature of an orc. Azog had brought up his son, well enough that he actually acknowledges him as his own son. That is a first for any orc. And Bolg sets out to march upon Erebor in vengeance of his fathers death. How many orcs will Try and avenge another dead orc? Most will just forget about the dead one. This gives me hope that Orcs, have some traits of good in them, even if it is small aspects.
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DeadRabbits
Rohan
Apr 16 2014, 8:52am
Post #2 of 28
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"May the grace of the Valar protect you"
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There's that quote by Arwen in TTT, which of course doesn't mean jack to anyone who hasn't read the books, but at least it's a hint of something bigger and otherworldy.
Now now Bill, you swore this was a battle between warriors, not a bunch of miss nancies, so warriors is what I brought
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Kelly of Water's Edge
Rohan
Apr 16 2014, 10:39am
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If the Silmarillion is ever filmed, definitely - particularly in reference to the Elves. If not, I think Gandalf's resurrection and talk about the afterlife with Pippin is probably the closest they'll get.
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dik-dik
Lorien
Apr 16 2014, 11:19am
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The cultures of the West aren't religious in the modern sense.
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They believe in the One and the Valar, but don't build religious structures (only the Meneltarma in Númenor comes to mind, and even that holy place was mostly inaccessible) or openly worship deities. The best we can get would be a prayer to the Valar by some Mirkwood Elves, but even then, if they wanted to keep them canon it's possible that most of those wouldn't even utter the name of Elbereth (by which Frodo tells High Elves from lesser ones in FotR the book). The people of Lake-town, I just don't know about. They're not a part of the Western pro-Valarin culrure, neither are they Sauron worshippers... no idea what their religious beliefs might be, but I'm positive I don't want to know because that would only be the movie team's guess and I'd prefer guesses kept away from the movies lest they're mistaken for Tolkien's actual canon by the wide audience.
It would be cool, on the other hand, to see some Sauron worshippers in their wicked temples - that cult is mentioned by JRRT.
"A journalist once asked me what I would like my epitaph to be and I said I think I would like it to be 'He did very little harm'. And that's not easy. Most people seem to me to do a great deal of harm. If I could be remembered as having done very little, that would suit me." ~ Paul Eddington
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"You can't have everything; where would you put it?"
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BalrogTrainer
Rivendell
Apr 16 2014, 11:24am
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... the whole concept of religion is largely absurd, I hope not.  Keep the Middle-earth films irreligious -- especially when this is likely all we're going to get on the big screen.
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Escapist
Gondor
Apr 16 2014, 11:32am
Post #6 of 28
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So I guess the obvious thing to do forward from here is to focus more on Sauron and the cool forces of evil and move the focus away from the forces of Good - to avoid guesswork (because the details about Sauron's side are far more rich than those of the West in Tolkien's writing). If it's about Sauron, it's cool. If it's about Sauron's enemies it is guesswork that should be avoided - unless specifically and unambiguously defined.
Huh ...
If all the world's a stage then who's writing the script?
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entmaiden
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Apr 16 2014, 1:09pm
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to keep organized religion out of the books, so I can't imagine the movies would introduce religion. I would prefer the film-makers follow in Tolkien's lead since religion is a very sensitive topic and would not enhance the story at all.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 16 2014, 1:50pm
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The most organized religion(s) in Middle-earth was probably the worship of Morgoth; I don't think anyone here would wish to be part of that congregation.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Werde Spinner
Rohan
Apr 16 2014, 2:47pm
Post #10 of 28
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they mentioned that they theorized the citizens of Lake-town had two religions - one representing the life-giving aspects of the lake and one for the death-bringing idea of the mountain nearby with Smaug. Some background characters were dressed in blue and red accordingly.
Nothing overt was ever stated about it, though, and that's fine with me. Middle-earth is one of the few fantasy worlds with an understated yet present religious aspect - and one of the even fewer with an actual benevolent deity.
"I had forgotten that. It is hard to be sure of anything among so many marvels. The world is all grown strange. Elf and Dwarf in company walk in our daily fields; and folk speak with the Lady of the Wood and yet live; and the Sword comes back to war that was broken in the long ages ere the fathers of our fathers rode into the Mark! How shall a man judge what to do in such times?"
"As he ever has judged. Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house."
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demnation
Rohan
Apr 16 2014, 3:24pm
Post #11 of 28
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Its irreligious nature is an important aspect of ME
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Tolkien wisely avoided (probably for his own sake) any controversy by largely excluding religion in his work. And anyway, it would seem a bit weird if it were suddenly included in the last film . And I personally find religion one of the most eternally fascinating but also eternally boring topics, so I can say I'm quite glad that it isn't a topic involved with ME.
"It is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till. What weather they shall have is not ours to rule." Gandalf, "The Last Debate."
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dik-dik
Lorien
Apr 16 2014, 3:35pm
Post #12 of 28
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So I guess the obvious thing to do forward from here is to focus more on Sauron and the cool forces of evil and move the focus away from the forces of Good - to avoid guesswork (because the details about Sauron's side are far more rich than those of the West in Tolkien's writing). If it's about Sauron, it's cool. If it's about Sauron's enemies it is guesswork that should be avoided - unless specifically and unambiguously defined.
Huh ...
That is not at all what I wrote. Nowhere have I said I'd like the focus to be shifted to Sauron. I was speaking of the aspect of religion only. That if religion was to be shown, I'd prefer seeing Sauronians who are canon, to seeing the religious practices of e.g. Laketowners which would be guesswork. I am speaking of my personal preference, and noone's forcing it on PJ - or you. If you want to offer a counter-opinion, I'm interested in reading it; but please curb the snideness/irony. I find it uncalled-for.
"A journalist once asked me what I would like my epitaph to be and I said I think I would like it to be 'He did very little harm'. And that's not easy. Most people seem to me to do a great deal of harm. If I could be remembered as having done very little, that would suit me." ~ Paul Eddington
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"You can't have everything; where would you put it?"
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Cillendor
Lorien
Apr 16 2014, 3:40pm
Post #13 of 28
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I would think among Men, only the Edain would still hold to a firm belief in Ilúvatar and the Valar. For the rest of Men, they would probably be largely superstitious. If your culture is isolated on a lake and overshadowed by the mountain of a mighty, seemingly-immortal dragon, you'll probably begin to see those two things as some sort of deities. Perhaps in certain cultures the Elves were worshiped (more likely in a fearful way), or even Saruman. I doubt Gandalf would stand for being worshiped, and Radagast is too much of a recluse to have much contact with people.
As there are various other spirits in the world, maybe they too are worshiped. There could be a cult which offers sacrifices to the Huorns of Fangorn, or perhaps that considers the Crebain (crows) of Dunland as some sort of fey spirit of death and decay.
The Dwarves seem to worship Aulë (whom they call Mahal), which makes sense as he was their creator and the founder of their culture.
The remnant of the Noldor, and probably the Sindar, probably still believe in Ilúvatar and may even worship him. The Avari (Elves who refused the summons to Valinor) may exclusively worship Elbereth Gilthoniel.
I would imagine that the most atheists would exist among Men and Orcs, though both groups are also prone to worshiping Morgoth or Sauron. I doubt that Orcs under the control of Morgoth or Sauron would be atheists, but some of the more isolated populations that were merely under tribal rule probably didn't see any deity as worthy of worship.
Lastly, I have no idea what to make of the Hobbits. I would guess that with their simpleton ways, they didn't give much thought to the notion of a divine being. Though among the Valar, Yavanna is closest in nature to them. Perhaps it is no coincidence that Yavanna (the goddess of nature who is alike in heart to the Hobbits) is married to Aulë (the god of stone and metal who created the Dwarves).
To what degree their views would play a role in their everyday life likely would vary greatly, but at least these seem likely as potential deities of the various cultures.
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Cillendor
Lorien
Apr 16 2014, 3:50pm
Post #14 of 28
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I agree, but with one exception.
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As Arwen spoke of the Valar in The Fellowship of the Ring, I think that there should be some subtle reference to Mahal in the funeral scene of There and Back Again. It need only be in Khuzdul, but as three of Durin's line are being buried, I'm sure this would be a very elaborate funeral full of tradition and ritual. In fact, I'll be extremely disappointed if this isn't mentioned. It is part of their culture that Tolkien wrote on. Ask Middle Earth wrote on this saying that they may even sing some sort of dirge. If this doesn't contain some reference to Mahal bearing their souls away to the Halls of Mandos, then the writers will have totally dropped the ball. Source: The Dwarrow Scholar
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Name
Rohan
Apr 16 2014, 7:10pm
Post #15 of 28
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There is no real "religion" in ME, because the Valar are all real, they exists and are fact. So in a way Tolkien's works, esp. The Silmarillion, are there own "Bible", where the gods are as real as the people who they created.
"Thank goodness!" said Bilbo laughing, and handed him the tobacco-jar.
Screen cuts to black - 10 seconds of black screen
Black screen ends. Flash-forward of Balin holding off Moria goblins with a fully automatic machine gun. Balin's screams can be heard over the gunfire.
Screen cuts to black - "Directed By Peter Jackson" appears on screen. END
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EomundDaughter
Lorien
Apr 16 2014, 8:12pm
Post #16 of 28
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I read that Tolkiens intention
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in writing the books was to create a written mythology for the British people that did not exist or as he said "somehow was lost over time."
As we have seen most all nations mythologies contain ancient dieties and their worship. I think Tolkien would as a serious Christian put that slant on his stories creation and I am very happy he did. Best stories ever!!!
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Elarie
Grey Havens
Apr 16 2014, 9:40pm
Post #17 of 28
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The people seem to know about Eru and the Valar without feeling the need to worship
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or build temples or make religious organizations. The best word I can think of to describe how the "good" people of middle earth seem to feel toward the Valar is "reverence".
Hop to it, Radagast, we've got dark powers to sleigh.
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Azimuth
The Shire
Apr 16 2014, 10:09pm
Post #18 of 28
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Was Aule (Mahal) mentioned in LOTR?
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I can't remember now.
PJ said in the commentary for AUJ EE that they had to be very careful adding things to The Hobbit, because they have rights only for it and LOTR. They couldn't mention anything from Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales etc. which is not in these two.
As Arwen spoke of the Valar in The Fellowship of the Ring, I think that there should be some subtle reference to Mahal in the funeral scene of There and Back Again. It need only be in Khuzdul, but as three of Durin's line are being buried, I'm sure this would be a very elaborate funeral full of tradition and ritual. In fact, I'll be extremely disappointed if this isn't mentioned.
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Eldy
Tol Eressea
Apr 16 2014, 10:33pm
Post #19 of 28
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Unfortunately, the whole "mythology for England" idea is subject to a lot of misinterpretation as it gets passed around, especially on the Internet, though misconceptions crop up in print too. (And the pedant in me feels the need to point out that Tolkien thought very specifically of England in all of this, not of Britain.  ) Anyway, there are certainly a lot of religious elements in Tolkien's work; his beliefs as a Catholic can be seen in various ways in just about all of his writing. But the explicitly mythological material, with actual Gods and Angels walking around, is mostly limited to the First Age (the Istari not withstanding). And, in part since he was writing about a fictional pre-Christian time, Tolkien deliberately made organized religion a very small factor in his world. As a couple of people have pointed out, almost all mentions of organized religion in the books are to the worship of Morgoth. The good peoples, while venerating Eru, do not generally do so as a part of everyday life.
There's a feeling I get, when I look to the West...
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Cillendor
Lorien
Apr 17 2014, 4:06am
Post #20 of 28
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But the Bree prologue was from Unfinished Tales, so they have been using some stuff outside those two books.
I think they could get away with naming Mahal if the entire song is in neo-Khuzdul. Since Tolkien barely touched the language himself, David Salo has pretty much invented it all himself. So hiding the name Mahal in the text would hopefully not be problematic. After all, his Sindarin and Quenya texts are based on information published in Parma Eldalamberon, which I believe is an extension of the Tolkien Estate.
But one of my pet peeves about the film is that Sauron never referred to Gandalf as Olórin, which DID appear in The Lord of the Rings. Both being Maiar, it would make perfect sense for Sauron to refer to Gandalf by his true name. But I guess it's no different than Smaug calling Thorin "Oakenshield". Just disappointing.
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Elskidor
Rohan
Apr 17 2014, 2:00pm
Post #22 of 28
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Could not have said it better myself. Keep it out of the story.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 17 2014, 2:17pm
Post #23 of 28
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If anyone among the Free Peoples have developed a formal religion, it is probably the secretive, mysterious Dwarves. Tolkien revealed very little about Dwarvish culture, but I could very easily see them performing secret rites that are never revealed to outsiders.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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pandoraziki
Rivendell
Apr 17 2014, 5:27pm
Post #24 of 28
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I would think Sauron was oblivious to the true origin of the Istari at the time of the Hobbit events. He apparently knew of Gandalf's existence, but wouldn't necessarily know he was another Maia. And if Sauron was aware of that, then he probably didn't know it was Olórin. But I am a bit rusty on Tolkien lore, so please feel free to correct me, if I am wrong.
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Escapist
Gondor
Apr 18 2014, 11:21am
Post #25 of 28
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Let me know where I misunderstood you, then.
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“The people of Lake-town, I just don't know about. They're not a part of the Western pro-Valarin culrure, neither are they Sauron worshippers... no idea what their religious beliefs might be, but I'm positive I don't want to know because that would only be the movie team's guess and I'd prefer guesses kept away from the movies lest they're mistaken for Tolkien's actual canon by the wide audience.”
“It would be cool, on the other hand, to see some Sauron worshippers in their wicked temples - that cult is mentioned by JRRT.“
A few points I got from these statements in particular:- You don't want to know about the Lake-town religion and they aren't Sauron worshippers.
- You think it would be cool to see some Sauron worshippers.
- Sauron worshippers are mentioned by JRRT.
- The religions of surrounding dwarven and elven communities are detailed by JRRT.
My reactions / responses to these points (that may have been misconstrued - let me know)- You think that the Sauron worshipping stuff is interesting and cool.
- You don't think it would take guesswork to fill the Sauron worhipping out. I wonder if you aren't slightly biased by your interest in this subject.
- It seems to me that there would be plenty of guesswork involved in adapting Sauron worshipping since it is only mentioned with little detail (as best I remember), just like almost all of the Dol Guldur sequence in DOS was pure invention.
- It seems to me that there would just be a tad extra guesswork if the Laketowners were assumed to be somewhat pluralistic / nondenominational due to the influences of the definitely religious dwarves and elves that they have extremely close contact with.
- I can't help but notice the rancorous outcry from simply naming one of the unnamed company of Thranduil (who by the way is only named "Elven King" in TH) as Legolas when he is known to be from there - while wildly free total invention guessing in the dark about what happened at Dol Guldur and who was there (leaving out Thrain actually) is just "cool". I do wonder about that. I should ask rather than, guess ... that would be a better approach. So I will. I'm asking about it. What's up with that?
If all the world's a stage then who's writing the script?
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