|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
xxxyyy
Rohan
Apr 13 2014, 4:38pm
Post #1 of 26
(1223 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Do you think PJ will fix the talking spider/Sting scene?
|
Can't Post
|
|
I know, we have already discussed this, and someone came up with the idea that the power of the Ring was still affecting Bilbo so he could still understand the language of the spiders.
Ok, for me this is simplly a nonsense.
We could say the power of the Ring was much stronger when Frodo met Shelob, and Frodo was much more entangled in its power, so why didn't he hear Shelob talk?
The thing that is making me sad is that first you come up with a clever idea to make the spiders talk, then you suddenly throw everything away discarding what you have just previously established.
A simple way to fix that scene would be to introduce more spider killings by Bilbo and making them
shout "it stings!", then leaving the last sequence, with the spiders asking themselves where he is, and reach it's onclusion without them talking outside the "shadow world".
I think this scene, as it is now, is a big failure. Before shooting a scene I suppose they have a script, they have
a storyboard and they have who knows what else to keep trak of the million details involved in the process. They thought about a solution reguarding the spiders talking and they solve it in a clever way. And what then? They screw everything up during the actual shooting of the movie?
I just can't believe that.
I'm sure this scene will be fixed. I'm sure.
I think it's like the other "continuity error", Smaug referring to Thoring as Oakenshild. It is clear in that scene that Smaug knows Sauron is moving, he just says it.
How does he know that? For sure, Sauron or one of the Nine visit him and I hope we will see that meeting (a prologue of the full story of Sauron, from his fair form (Cumberbatch...c'mon) when he decieved the Elves in doing the Rings of Power, to when he met Smaug under the mountain... yes, wouldn't this be the Prologue of all Prologues?).
Well, anyway, I guess this is not a "do you think..." thread.
Sorry about the rant, but I've just rewatched DOS for the third time, and the fact that I like it more and more everytime I see it, it just saddends me the more thinking about these obvious and easily avoidable mistakes.... and let me add easily fixable.
|
|
|
Bombadil
Half-elven
Apr 13 2014, 4:51pm
Post #2 of 26
(805 views)
Shortcut
|
|
PJ is jus' following the Books, The Spiders of Mirkwood Talked in the TH
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
SHELOB might have lost to ability to talk
with no one to Talk to ?
for a thousand years...
Also, it makes more
Sense
SHE didn't find it necessary to Talk to Frodo,
Since
SHE was
SURE he would be dead
Soon.
|
|
|
tsmith675
Gondor
Apr 13 2014, 4:56pm
Post #3 of 26
(800 views)
Shortcut
|
It's fine the way it is.
Our destiny lies above us.
|
|
|
MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea
Apr 13 2014, 5:26pm
Post #4 of 26
(759 views)
Shortcut
|
it would have been a little cheesy if the spiders just talked without "ring mode activation".
|
|
|
BlackFox
Half-elven
Apr 13 2014, 5:26pm
Post #5 of 26
(792 views)
Shortcut
|
I know, we have already discussed this, and someone came up with the idea that the power of the Ring was still affecting Bilbo so he could still understand the language of the spiders.
Ok, for me this is simplly a nonsense.
We could say the power of the Ring was much stronger when Frodo met Shelob, and Frodo was much more entangled in its power, so why didn't he hear Shelob talk? Well, Bilbo had just been wearing the Ring, Frodo, on the other hand, hadn't done so since Amon Hen.
"Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake." - Henry David Thoreau
|
|
|
MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea
Apr 13 2014, 6:57pm
Post #6 of 26
(736 views)
Shortcut
|
|
there could be a simple answer to all this
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
what if shelob didn't want to speak? she was the only spider living maybe she doesn't like talking to other creatures.
|
|
|
Cillendor
Lorien
Apr 13 2014, 7:15pm
Post #7 of 26
(728 views)
Shortcut
|
|
The only thing that need be fixed in that scene
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
is the spider talking AFTER Bilbo removed the Ring. That makes absolutely no sense.
I also agree that Smaug shouldn't know Thorin's nickname Oakenshield. Even if he had heard it somehow, why would he refer to Thorin as that? The name means nothing to him personally, but Thorin son of Thrain son of Thror of the House of Durin would have special significance.
|
|
|
Name
Rohan
Apr 13 2014, 8:35pm
Post #8 of 26
(671 views)
Shortcut
|
We do hear the spiders talk multiple times without Bilbo wearing the ring. There's that one obvious one, but we also hear the spiders whispering "attercop" at two different points before the company actually encounters them. So I'm thinking, based on what we have been shown, that the ring just makes their speech clearer.
My name is Name, which, name-wise, is a much better name than your first name, last name, or name's name could ever plan on naming themselves.
(This post was edited by Name on Apr 13 2014, 8:35pm)
|
|
|
Morthoron
Gondor
Apr 14 2014, 12:19am
Post #9 of 26
(619 views)
Shortcut
|
|
What needs fixing in the scene...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
is to eliminate the Elvish participation in battling the spiders. Remove bloated Legolas and fan-fic Tauriel altogether, and let Bilbo be the one and only person to beat the spiders. It bears repeating, the book and movie title The Hobbit concerns one Bilbo Baggins.
Let him yell his priceless and humorous taunts at the spiders. Let him be the hero as in the book. The addled addition of Peter Jackson extraneous material once again proves that sticking with the book plot is superior to the overblown inanities PJ comes up with.
Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.
|
|
|
MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea
Apr 14 2014, 1:25am
Post #10 of 26
(594 views)
Shortcut
|
cut them out of the webs.
|
|
|
MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea
Apr 14 2014, 1:27am
Post #11 of 26
(592 views)
Shortcut
|
|
wait the spider talked after Bilbo removed the ring?
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
i've watched DOS a bunch of times and never noticed that, the spider says "sting" when Bilbo first slices it.
|
|
|
Morthoron
Gondor
Apr 14 2014, 1:34am
Post #12 of 26
(587 views)
Shortcut
|
Pj undercuts and minimizes Bilbo throughout the movies; in fact, PJ has a whole history of demeaning characters in the LotR movies, Faramir and Denethor being the most egregious. It is very noticeable. And unnecessary.
Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.
|
|
|
Escapist
Gondor
Apr 14 2014, 1:37am
Post #13 of 26
(587 views)
Shortcut
|
as softening the character spike into a character arc.
In the book, we have the trembling grocer, whining about a hanky
who is then totally and completely incompetent in the face of trolls
who makes no act to defend himself physically in the face of orcs or Gollum (except to flash around his blade, maybe, a bit - but that isn't really mentioned)
who then suddenly single-handedly takes out ALL of the spiders completely SOLO playground bully style (I admit that I do miss the funny character moment there).
I enjoyed this in a book where the action doesn't fill the screen up so much - but this kind of spike in his character arc so suddenly wouldn't work as well for me in a movie where the whole thing is brief and told through physical dialogue and action.
I think that if the entire movie was less action-oriented, it wouldn't seem suspicious that Bilbo didn't lift a finger to fight before and now is suddenly flawless at it.
If all the world's a stage then who's writing the script?
|
|
|
Noria
Gondor
Apr 14 2014, 2:12am
Post #14 of 26
(585 views)
Shortcut
|
|
No. I don't think these things will be "fixed".
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Are there any instances of PJ fixing so-called mistakes, even when he acknowledges them as such? I can't remember any.
Anyway, I doubt that he is going to worry about something that nobody but fanatical fans like us here is going to notice. Likely they are choices that PJ made consciously.
That's OK with me that because these things don't bother me in the least. I'm sorry that they detract from your enjoyment, xxxyyy.
|
|
|
dormouse
Half-elven
Apr 14 2014, 7:22am
Post #15 of 26
(560 views)
Shortcut
|
..and I doubt Peter Jackson does either.
When something really needs 'fixing' - as for example, the front legs of Smaug in the AUJ prologue, which clearly didn't match the final design - then he does 'fix' them as he did in that instance, in the extended version. There's no way he's going to go through the films twiddling every scenes in to satisfy the individual gripes of individual viewers. No reason why he should.
I'm glad you're enjoying the film more and more every time you see it. I was watching it just last night and the beauty and scope of some of the scenes is breathtaking.
|
|
|
MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea
Apr 14 2014, 7:35am
Post #16 of 26
(551 views)
Shortcut
|
the scenes with smaug in AUJ are very short, you just see glimpses of him, you need to freeze frame to notice his legs are different.
|
|
|
dik-dik
Lorien
Apr 14 2014, 9:16am
Post #17 of 26
(536 views)
Shortcut
|
|
The spider scene doesn't need fixing... IMO
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Perhaps the spiders both squeal and speak, and Bilbo just happened to have the Ring on when the movie spiders spoke?
We could say the power of the Ring was much stronger when Frodo met Shelob, and Frodo was much more entangled in its power, so why didn't he hear Shelob talk?
She doesn't need to, probably for the same reason the balrog doesn't talk; because in Tolkien's words, silence is 'more terrifying'.
Before shooting a scene I suppose they have a script, they have a storyboard and they have who knows what else to keep trak of the million details involved in the process. They thought about a solution reguarding the spiders talking and they solve it in a clever way.
As far as I understand, changes are made throughout the entire process of making the movie almost up to when they submit the final cut, and various versions are shot to see which one works best. Overlooking a consistency / logic flaw is entirely possible in that case.
I'm sure this scene will be fixed.
I'm not. ;D Likewise, I'm not sure we'll see Sauron getting in touch with Smaug. With a movie that has, how many, 3/4 parallel storylines, flashbacks would only contribute to the average viewer's confusion. Their number should be kept to minimum, unless they're absolutely necessary to explain the characters' motivations (Bree, Dale).
"A journalist once asked me what I would like my epitaph to be and I said I think I would like it to be 'He did very little harm'. And that's not easy. Most people seem to me to do a great deal of harm. If I could be remembered as having done very little, that would suit me." ~ Paul Eddington
----------
"You can't have everything; where would you put it?"
|
|
|
BalrogTrainer
Rivendell
Apr 14 2014, 1:56pm
Post #18 of 26
(496 views)
Shortcut
|
It bears repeating, the book and movie title The Hobbit concerns one Bilbo Baggins. The book and the movie title The Lord of the Rings concerns one Sauron... yet he's hardly in it. Just sayin' (yet again  ).
(This post was edited by BalrogTrainer on Apr 14 2014, 1:59pm)
|
|
|
xxxyyy
Rohan
Apr 14 2014, 2:05pm
Post #19 of 26
(499 views)
Shortcut
|
As already pointed out, Smaug's legs in AUJ, or Minas Tirith in TTT being absent from the theatrical edition not to confuse the casual viewers.
Also, PJ did mention he wanted to fix Gollum in FOTR.
So I think there's a (small) chance we see this little, but important, scene fixed.
Maybe, as I said, this scene just need a different editing and a small sound fix at the end, removing the spider talking, it's a very easy fix.
But I know, in the end I will be terribly disapponted this november when everything will stay the same...
Well... I'm a bit masochist.
|
|
|
xxxyyy
Rohan
Apr 14 2014, 2:07pm
Post #20 of 26
(492 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Did'nt notice that. Maybe they are going to stress it in the EE. That would be a fix for me. //
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
|
|
|
xxxyyy
Rohan
Apr 14 2014, 2:09pm
Post #21 of 26
(493 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Yes, when he removes the Ring, they talk, they say "it stings". //
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
|
|
|
Darkstone
Immortal
Apr 14 2014, 2:15pm
Post #22 of 26
(491 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Shelob's trying to sneak up on Frodo.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
It doesn't make any sense for her to do any talking.
Now what's interesting is some people swear they can hear Shelob in the film saying something like "Nooo, get away!" as she's backing away after she's been wounded by Sam. (Never noticed it myself, but I have bad hearing.)
And of course it seems pretty clear that she's able to talk, since she's talked with Gollum.
And finally, Shelob isn't really a spider, but rather "an evil thing in spider-form".
So no harm, no foul, no need to fix..
******************************************
Brother will fight brother and both be his slayer,
brother and sister will violate all bonds of kinship;
hard it will be in the world, there will be much failure of honor,
an age of axes, an age of swords, where shields are shattered,
an age of winds, an age of wolves, where the world comes crashing down;
no man will spare another.
-From the Völuspá, 13th Century
|
|
|
xxxyyy
Rohan
Apr 14 2014, 2:16pm
Post #23 of 26
(492 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Bu the way, do the spiders talk or do Bilbo read their minds?
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Because I do not rememeber any lip sinch on the spiders' mouths.
If Bilbo can read their minds, then it's definetely the power of the Ring, hence the scene is broken.
Assunming the power of the Ring is still in effect when he takes it off... I think this assumption would come from die hard fanatics of Tolkien and not something a casual movie goer would go through.
Again, I'm confident a different cut of that scene would fix everything.
|
|
|
DanielLB
Immortal
Apr 14 2014, 3:54pm
Post #24 of 26
(473 views)
Shortcut
|
|
It's been described in the past as "psychic" communication.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
It's unclear whether it is down to the Ring or not.
|
|
|
Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Apr 14 2014, 7:32pm
Post #25 of 26
(464 views)
Shortcut
|
|
The BIGGER problem is not the talking spiders
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
It's the fact that, at the end of DOS, NOBODY knows that Bilbo has that "invisible ring." I mostly roll my eyes when I hear people complain about how different the movie is from the book (most movies are), but one scene I wish PJ had kept was the one where Bilbo told the dwarves about his encounter with Gollum, and his contest of riddles. In fact, I can't help but wonder if the revelation will be in the EE, since Thorin tells Balin that a deal with Thranduil was "not their only hope," clearly meaning Bilbo. Now, it's possible that since Bombur was hanging upside down at the moment Bilbo took off the ring, he might have seen Bilbo magically re-appear, and asked him what was up, or said something to the other dwarves prior to the elven rescue/capture.
As for Smaug knowing about "Oakenshield," well he already revealed that he knew Bilbo was there with a bunch of dwarves, and clearly he's in league with Sauron ("They mean to unleash a weapon so powerful it will destroy all in it's path" - Thranduil), so he's getting some information somehow, and that may also be explained in the EE - or not; PJ may feel the scene explains itself.
(This post was edited by Kilidoescartwheels on Apr 14 2014, 7:34pm)
|
|
|
|
|
1
