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MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea
Apr 13 2014, 2:53am
Post #1 of 18
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How does the Thráin/Gandalf scene fit into the films?
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We know Gandalf has glamdring in the sequence from the trailer/teasers, but how is this possible since he discovers glamdring in AUJ? And he's in dol-guldur a place it seems Gandalf has not been (in the films) for a very long time..
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Dcole4
Rohan
Apr 13 2014, 3:13am
Post #2 of 18
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Very different from the books.
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Gandalf is going to meet Thrain in Dol Guldur in the present timeline. They cleverly edited around him with CGI. I have hopes that the EE will restore this section of this film. The "lifting the spell" aspect was added in Post, all those spell shots are entirely CGI, meaning they added them at the last second. Same with the dialogue, you never actually see Ian utter the spell. My feeling is that the Thrain material, and it's lead-in were supposed to be in this section.
In regards to the famous handing of the key scene between Gandalf and Thrain. I have a feeling that has been transplanted to an entirely different location. People have proposed that it could be part of the Moria flashback that we know was filmed where Thrain gets lost. Perhaps Gandalf meets him there? Who knows. But the key most definitely won't be handed off in Dol Guldur in the movie-verse.
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MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea
Apr 13 2014, 5:43am
Post #3 of 18
(782 views)
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instead of Azog jumping out at Gandalf it was going to be Thrain? and the handing over the key is going to be a different scene? interesting.
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LordotRings93
Rohan
Apr 13 2014, 12:53pm
Post #4 of 18
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Bolg was the one who was gonna jump out and fight Gandalf, as you can see him in the DOS VFX video, when the "we are legion" scene occurs. Thrain was going to fall on Gandalf from above, in that one shot when we get a glimpse up during his spell recitation. They were to fight, then maybe Bolg would appear? I don't know, but one thing I really want explained in the appendices is this Dol Guldur change and why Azog and Bolg were truly switched.
Lover of Medieval Fantasy
"I know what I must do. It's just... I'm afraid to do it."
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Dcole4
Rohan
Apr 13 2014, 6:17pm
Post #5 of 18
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They'll hopefully restore this section of the film. The theatrical cut is essentially a butchered version of whatever they originally shot. Thrain will jump down on Gandalf, and they'll have some kind of discussion. I have a feeling Thrain will warn him of the orcs and we'll get some kind of a scene where they're sneaking around, eventually caught by Azog (Bolg in the original version), this is where Azog says "we are legion." In the extended cut Thrain will try to help Gandalf escape. We've seen snippets of footage of Thrain & Gandalf racing through Dol Guldur. In the theatrical cut he was painted out. How he dies or becomes lost from Gandalf is a complete mystery. The entirely digital shot of Gandalf turning a corner and seeing the Necromancer replaced whatever was originally shot w/ Thrain.
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Dcole4
Rohan
Apr 13 2014, 6:22pm
Post #6 of 18
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In the originally version of these stories, Gandalf confronted the necromancer around the time that the Dwarves are escaping in barrels. Gandalf in the cage & the Dwarves meeting Bard were meant to be the climax of film 1(of 2). My feeling is that they were going to open film 2 with Azog returning to Dol Guldur to talk to the Necromancer, to re-introduce the villians. This of course had to be changed when this all became a trilogy and the Dol Guldur sequence was pushed to the end of the film (for whatever reason). So they sent Azog to Dol Guldur earlier, thus requiring the switcheroo.
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MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea
Apr 13 2014, 6:42pm
Post #7 of 18
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how much these films have been re-edited, the fact that the high fells and the necromancer was all going to be in film one just shows you how much "re-juggling" has been done in the editing room. This would be a huge change if PJ puts Thrain back into dol guldur in the EE. -I think he owes it to us though.
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Dcole4
Rohan
Apr 13 2014, 7:04pm
Post #8 of 18
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On another forum I read something that kinda blew my mind. The scene at the beginning of DOS where the company are fleeing from Azog, wasn't originally supposed to have the orcs at all. As originally shot, it was supposedly going to be only Beorn chasing them down from the Misty Mountains into his house.The shot where Bombur turns and looks horrified would have been him seeing the bear barreling down on them. Which would have made sense given that this scene would have immediately followed the orc attack in the trees.
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MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea
Apr 13 2014, 7:55pm
Post #9 of 18
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i mean i can understand why PJ reshot it
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originally Beorn was going to greet the dwarves which is how it went in the book and that was actually filmed, than they went back and made it so Beorn chases them to his house than after the three film split they added Azog and Beorn chasing them lol. But for a beginning of a film the audience probably doesn't want to watch a 10 minute Beorn/dwarf introduction scene, they complained about the unexpected party being too long in AUJ so i'm PJ wanted to start with some action.
(This post was edited by MouthofSauron on Apr 13 2014, 7:56pm)
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davidjUK
Bree
Apr 13 2014, 8:40pm
Post #11 of 18
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I know it's pretty much confirmed Thrain will be in the EE, but the way they put together the Dol Guldur sequences seemingly at the last minute, means the EE could be very very different. I think Peter does owe us though, to show us how the entire Dol Guldur scenes were meant to play out. After all, we saw Thrain in the first ever trailer for AUJ and by November this year, it will be three years almost since that first trailer!
As someone has already pointed out, when Gandalf is saying the spell, his mouth isn't moving at all, and it comes across very obviously that there was some major last minute editing.
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Dcole4
Rohan
Apr 13 2014, 9:19pm
Post #12 of 18
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I wonder how this scene originally played out since Gandalf was never meant to "undo the spell." A couple interesting things:
1) They painted out the statue holding the "palantir" (or the ball that looked quite similar) in the courtyard that Gandalf walks in. This statue is referenced quite specifically in the art books, and was seen in one of the posters, as well as being a prominent feature in one of the Lego sets. It makes me wonder if there is a major scene missing in the TE that features this statue.
2) The art books reference the dungeons and torture chambers. Part of me wonders if originally, as Gandalf walks through Dol Guldur (not casting spells) he was following screams that he heard from within the fortress. Following the noises deep within until he's leapt on by Thrain, who tries to warn him of the evil within (another thing the art book mentions).
3) This somehow leads into the Azog vs. Gandalf scene, which was always part of the movies (originally shot w/ Bolg). I wonder how much Thrain we see before Azog swoops in.
4) Another thing is, how much Thrain do we get to see after Gandalf escapes Azog. We've seen snippets of them fleeing (portions of this make up the TE version). Somehow Gandalf looses Thrain (or Thrain is killed)
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MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea
Apr 13 2014, 11:40pm
Post #13 of 18
(521 views)
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from the clip we saw in the DOS trailer
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Thrain jumps off a high tower toward Gandalf at dol guldur. Its "speculated" that there is another scene where Thrain gives Gandalf the key but who knows. The statue with the palantir sounds cool, i don't know why they would paint that out
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Apr 14 2014, 12:08am
Post #14 of 18
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It could well be DOS's version of FOTR's entrance to Lothlorien.
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An entirely different version was shot with Orcs chasing the Fellowship into the woods, including Legolas turning around to shoot straight at the camera. We never saw any of that as PJ rethought that scene - and it sounds to me the same has happened with Gandalf in Dol Guldur.
PJ's never released that original Lothlorien footage (although we did get to see it in drawn form in the EE appendices). Maybe we'll only see Thorin in the appendices as well.
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
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sycorax82
Rohan
Apr 14 2014, 12:37am
Post #15 of 18
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I am thinking Thrain in Dol Guldur will not make the EE
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Thrain obviously worked as part of the original storyline from the 2 movie version. The original AUJ would have seen him giving Gandalf the key and ended with his reappearance at Dol Guldur.
Now that Peter has moved things around it doesn't even matter if Thrain is there or not.
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MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea
Apr 14 2014, 1:22am
Post #16 of 18
(502 views)
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for PJ to cut this out of the films entirely is outrageous, this scene was put in the trailers/teasers for both AUJ and DOS!!
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Mooseboy018
Grey Havens
Apr 14 2014, 3:10am
Post #17 of 18
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Why would they bother putting in that line about him and the last of the Dwarf Rings in the AUJ EE, if they weren't going to continue that subplot in the DOS EE?
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Dcole4
Rohan
Apr 14 2014, 3:10am
Post #18 of 18
(496 views)
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The entirely CGI shots that replace it are all quite shoddy, which makes me think they took out Thrain relatively late in the process, which means that the VFX work was probably largely done. Remember also that Thrain was once part of the climax for AUJ (as evidenced by the trailers), so the effects, even if a tad rough, have been probably completed for these scenes for a very long time.
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