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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Lord of the Rings:
Arwen and Aragorn`s daughters

Calithilel
Bree


Apr 8 2014, 1:50pm

Post #1 of 17 (1054 views)
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Arwen and Aragorn`s daughters Can't Post

Just wondering if anyone know.

Arwen and Aragorn do get daughters I believe, and a son, but we never know the name of the daughters. But my question is...
We have Arwen Undomiel, Legolas Thranduillion (something) and what would the daughters have? "iel" means "daughter of" right?
Or is it completely up to us what we can think it is? Or do most of the Elven daughters not having second name, and Arwen was only special ;)

"If this is to end in fire, then we will all burn together." - Thorin Oakenshield

"So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us." - Gandalf the Grey

"I´m not a psychopath, I´m a highly functioning sociopath with your number." - Sherlock

"Some people are worth melting for." - Olaf, Frozen


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Apr 8 2014, 2:19pm

Post #2 of 17 (510 views)
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The daughers need not have Elvish names. [In reply to] Can't Post

The name of Aragorn and Arwen's son, Eldarion, is Quenya, but the daughters (however many there were) need not to have had Elvish names. After all, Aragorn's children were considered to be mortal, not Half-elves. Still, there is a fair chance that they had Sindarin or Quenya names anyway.

The suffix -iel can mean either daughter of or lady of.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Elanor of Rohan
Lorien


Apr 8 2014, 5:15pm

Post #3 of 17 (409 views)
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undomiel means evenstar [In reply to] Can't Post

as far as I know.


DaughterofLaketown
Gondor


Apr 8 2014, 5:17pm

Post #4 of 17 (398 views)
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Undomiel [In reply to] Can't Post

Is not a last name. It is a title much like the term elf stone for Aragorn or to use a historical example Phillipe la belle, ( Phillip the fair.)


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Apr 8 2014, 5:46pm

Post #5 of 17 (372 views)
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Undómiel [In reply to] Can't Post

Robert Foster identifies the name as Quenya and gives the translation as 'evening-maiden'. However, I also find 'evenstar' and 'daughter of twilight' as alternate interpretations. The translation of 'evenstar' does acknowledge the feminine suffix -iel.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Calithilel
Bree


Apr 8 2014, 7:04pm

Post #6 of 17 (417 views)
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Forgot they were considered mortals [In reply to] Can't Post

and not Half-Elves, I always thought of them like it since Arwen was an Elf, but gave that up.
Thank you for your reply :)

"If this is to end in fire, then we will all burn together." - Thorin Oakenshield

"So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us." - Gandalf the Grey

"I´m not a psychopath, I´m a highly functioning sociopath with your number." - Sherlock

"Some people are worth melting for." - Olaf, Frozen


Calithilel
Bree


Apr 8 2014, 7:05pm

Post #7 of 17 (360 views)
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I knew it meant Evenstar too ;) [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you for your reply ;)

"If this is to end in fire, then we will all burn together." - Thorin Oakenshield

"So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us." - Gandalf the Grey

"I´m not a psychopath, I´m a highly functioning sociopath with your number." - Sherlock

"Some people are worth melting for." - Olaf, Frozen


Calithilel
Bree


Apr 8 2014, 7:07pm

Post #8 of 17 (374 views)
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ah title [In reply to] Can't Post

I knew i was thinking wrong, I meant title really, not last name. Well then my question settles it then.
Kind a feel a little stupid right now xD well well :)

"If this is to end in fire, then we will all burn together." - Thorin Oakenshield

"So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us." - Gandalf the Grey

"I´m not a psychopath, I´m a highly functioning sociopath with your number." - Sherlock

"Some people are worth melting for." - Olaf, Frozen


DaughterofLaketown
Gondor


Apr 8 2014, 8:24pm

Post #9 of 17 (346 views)
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It's okay [In reply to] Can't Post

You made me think about this in a way I haven't for a long time.


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 9 2014, 4:08am

Post #10 of 17 (354 views)
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Maybe... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Arasell Morenedhel - Noble Daughter Midnight Star

Araiell Dûrel - Noble Maid Dark Star

******************************************
A fox passing through the wood on business of his own stopped several minutes and sniffed. "A chicken crossing the road!" he thought. "Well, what next? I have heard of strange doings in this land, but I have seldom heard of a chicken crossing the road! There's something mighty queer behind this." He was quite right, but he never found out any more because he ate it.


Elthir
Gondor

Apr 9 2014, 11:31am

Post #11 of 17 (337 views)
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daughter, star [In reply to] Can't Post

The suffix -iel can mean 'daughter' but Tolkien appears to think Arwen's Quenya name contains -el 'star' rather. In Nomenclature Tolkien explained...

'Evenstar.
As title of Arwen Undómiel. When used in the text this translation of Undómiel (a Quenya name) should be translated.' JRRT, Nomenclature

There's no real genitive marker ['of'] with -iel but compounds can imply this sense; that is: 'evening star' can be said to mean 'star of the evening', or Annatar 'Gift-lord, Lord of gifts'. Thranduilion is from the films and is not attested but employs -ion 'son' or 'descendant', as is probable in Gildor Inglorion, or as in Finwion.

My guess is that the names of Aragorn's daughters would also be Quenya, but they could be Sindarin. Telcontar is Quenya as well however. I doubt Westron even though they have a measure of mortal blood.

Eldarion seems to contain -ion and mean 'Eldar-son' but as Tolkien didn't explain this name specifically [in any text yet made public, that I'm aware of], some think the inclusion of a plural marker is somewhat odd, and alternatively we might have 'Elf-prince' instead [where rig 'crown' is employed, as in Grey-elven Galadriel [Altáriel]].

There's this to consider anyway: '(...) But Strider shall be the name of my house, if that be ever established. In the high tongue it will not sound so ill, and Telcontar I will be and all the heirs of my body.'

As for Undómiel, we see Tolkien using the word 'title' but JRRT also explains the custom of name-giving among the Eldar of Valinor, and if it generally holds for the Elves of Middle-earth [or at least some of them] it's possible that the Half-elven employed the same customs.

There are two texts, but here's the later [and briefer] version, summed up by some fool named Elthir:

The Eldar in Valinor had as a rule two names, a Father-name and a Mother-name. Mother-names were given later, often some years later, but also sometimes soon after birth.

Epesse 'After-name' a nickname not necessarily given by kin and mostly given as a title of admiration or honour. Later some among the Exiles gave themselves names, as disguises or in reference to their own deeds and personal history: such names were called cilmessi 'self-names'. The true names remained the Father and Mother-names it seems, according to this account.

This description seems to be about naming with respect to the Eldar in Valinor, noting also that the cilmesse here does not seem to be identical with the Chosen-names of Noldorin Elf-children -- this 'Chosen-name' hails from the earlier, more in depth version of naming customs found in Morgoth's Ring, but Christopher Tolkien is unsure if the concept survived.

We know Gil-galad, for example of a Middle-earthian Elf, had an epesse, as it was Gil-galad Smile




(This post was edited by Elthir on Apr 9 2014, 11:45am)


Calithilel
Bree


Apr 9 2014, 11:48am

Post #12 of 17 (279 views)
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Thank you :) [In reply to] Can't Post

I got it all summed up now, but thank for the long reply :) I knew some part of it, and going to save it on my mac later when i get home.
Thanks again ;)

"If this is to end in fire, then we will all burn together." - Thorin Oakenshield

"So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us." - Gandalf the Grey

"I´m not a psychopath, I´m a highly functioning sociopath with your number." - Sherlock

"Some people are worth melting for." - Olaf, Frozen


Elthir
Gondor

Apr 9 2014, 12:00pm

Post #13 of 17 (296 views)
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you are welcome, but fair warning: I'm no linguist... [In reply to] Can't Post

... but hopefully I got that much right!

Incidentally I don't know why I made 'Father-name' blue but not 'Mother-name' -- actually only the Elvish terms should be coloured.

Oh well Crazy


Elthir
Gondor

Apr 9 2014, 1:22pm

Post #14 of 17 (292 views)
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to add my own question: linguistic question alert... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

The suffix -iel can mean 'daughter' but Tolkien appears to think Arwen's Quenya name contains -el 'star' rather. In Nomenclature Tolkien explained...

'Evenstar.
As title of Arwen Undómiel. When used in the text this translation of Undómiel (a Quenya name) should be translated.' JRRT, Nomenclature





I suppose it's possible that 'Evenstar' could be a 'loose' or poetic translation of Undómiel and that 'Evening, Twilight-daughter' [or Twilight + a feminine ending] could be more literal? This still seems less likely to me than Evenstar however.

With 'daughter of evening, daughter of twilight' I think we could have undóme + iel which would result in Undómiel 'daughter of evening' or more poetically perhaps, 'Evenstar'

But -- and here's where I need Carl Hostetter or another actual Tolkien linguist -- I think an older form of the word undóme might have ended in -i instead of -e, so we might have *undómi- plus -el 'star' and thus still Undómiel.

I base this on the older, admittedly ultimately abandoned text, Etymologies, entry DOMO- which contains *dómi- twilight, but in the later Words, Phrases and Passages text I found an instance of *dóme with long e.

I've read the idea that if we have a final vowel -i in Primitive Elvish it might not turn to -e unless it remains final, and in undómiel -i- would not be final [if the construction of this name was considered in this way, I guess]. In undóme itself -i is final and becomes -e. Is that why we have súre 'wind' but súrinen, for example?

Emphasis on 'I think'. Is Elfwine still out there? I've often wondered about this myself Smile

Or something else. I'm still going with a more literal 'Evenstar' for the moment, considering Nomenclature.


(This post was edited by Elthir on Apr 9 2014, 1:36pm)


Cillendor
Lorien


Apr 10 2014, 5:08am

Post #15 of 17 (264 views)
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Naming traditions in Númenor used primarily Quenya names. [In reply to] Can't Post

Originally, the kings and queens of Númenor used Quenya names. As they began to turn against the Elves and the Valar, they began using Adûnaic names instead. But those of the line of Elendil bore Quenya names (not in the fashion of the kings, though).

The name Aragorn itself was Sindarin, but his official name as king was Elessar Telcontar (Elfstone Strider), which is Quenya. My guess is that since he took up a Quenya name as king, he'd continue the naming traditions of the past and give his children all Quenya names.


DaughterofLaketown
Gondor


Apr 10 2014, 12:43pm

Post #16 of 17 (264 views)
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We could also talk about the one son mentioned of [In reply to] Can't Post

Eowyn and Faramir, Elboron.


Elthir
Gondor

Apr 10 2014, 1:01pm

Post #17 of 17 (302 views)
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Good points [In reply to] Can't Post

Good points Cillendor. Also [just to add], in Gondor the Kings had used Quenya names and it was only with the Steward Mardil Voronwe that his successors ceased to use High Elven names -- so with the restoration of the King came the restoration of the Quenya king names [in the North Sindarin was adopted by the Kings after Earendur, and Arvedui 'Last King' has a Sindarin name].

Of course Eldarion was to be king not his sisters, but still, this plus Telcontar would suggest Quenya.

 
 

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