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BlackFox
Half-elven
Apr 2 2014, 4:37pm
Post #1 of 38
(1189 views)
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Concerning Ninja Elves
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Ninja Elves - this amusing term has been used quite a lot recently in relation to DOS and, especially, Legolas. I must agree with those who find (some of) the action scenes featuring the said elf (a bit) over-the-top. The problem here lies, I feel, with the execution, not so much with the concept of it, however. It's not what is depicted, but how it is done, that I'm not happy with. It makes sense for the filmmakers to wish to set the way an elf (someone who's hundreds or even thousands of years old and thus considerably more experienced than any man could be) fights apart from the way men (or dwarves) do their fighting (the WHAT). The question is: HOW should it be done? How do you depict something that's ought to come off "un-mannish" (like something no man would (be able to) do, thus "unnatural" to the eyes of men), yet natural (opposite to being unbelievable and/or fake)? The contradicting nature of this, I believe, could be "blamed" for "the dissatisfying outcome" (note that this is my opinion only!) - it's easy to "go wrong" here, I feel. (I personally would have preferred to have seen more "Elvish elegance" in these scenes, for example.)
Maybe someone has some good examples of how this "issue" (or similar ones) has, in your opinion, been handled well/better in other films (or TV-series)?
"Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake." - Henry David Thoreau
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Apr 2 2014, 5:28pm
Post #2 of 38
(785 views)
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The term is even used in the DoS edition of Cinefex (where Turiel, rather than Tauriel, also has a brief mention).
I feel that the whole execution of Legolas in DoS is horrible: the zombie eyes, the pancake face, the expressions, the lines and petulant, unpleasant personality he is given, and the CGI stunts, which are very badly done and completely unnecessary. His entire presence is, in fact, so bad that it detracts from the film in a major way (as far as I'm concerned).
In my view the film-makers should never have embarked on the route taken with him, and given Orlando Bloom just a brief cameo role, as was originally planned.
(This post was edited by Glorfindela on Apr 2 2014, 5:29pm)
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Leaf of Mirkwood
Bree
Apr 2 2014, 5:43pm
Post #3 of 38
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I think its just that they crammed so many over-the-top manuvers by Legolas in such a tight sequence that made it too much. Ok so he comes sliding down on an orc (hello TTT!) then leaps on the dwarves heads like he is hopping over stones in a creek, then he does some one-legged ballerina type move while shooting arrows, THEN leaps impossibly onto the other shore to continue throttling orcs. Just one of those wouldn't be too bad. All crammed together made it really seem like the producers sat down and said "hey how can we make Legolas seem super duper?", made it seem too forced.
Just simply lightly hopping on the dwarves heads across the water would have been sufficient to get the point across, minus all the other stuff. Kind of like Legolas walking on snow. It made him stand out but not in a silly OTT way.
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Apr 2 2014, 5:58pm
Post #4 of 38
(722 views)
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Especially about the walking in snow – it was so subtle that I didn't even notice it until my mother pointed it out to me! I liked that.
The CGI 'snowboarding' and leaping around does absolutely nothing for me. I also felt the jumping on the Dwarves heads was horrible, showing a total lack of respect for a start. All in all, the sequences were badly done and unnecessary.
I think its just that they crammed so many over-the-top manuvers by Legolas in such a tight sequence that made it too much. Ok so he comes sliding down on an orc (hello TTT!) then leaps on the dwarves heads like he is hopping over stones in a creek, then he does some one-legged ballerina type move while shooting arrows, THEN leaps impossibly onto the other shore to continue throttling orcs. Just one of those wouldn't be too bad. All crammed together made it really seem like the producers sat down and said "hey how can we make Legolas seem super duper?", made it seem too forced.
Just simply lightly hopping on the dwarves heads across the water would have been sufficient to get the point across, minus all the other stuff. Kind of like Legolas walking on snow. It made him stand out but not in a silly OTT way.
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea
Apr 2 2014, 6:34pm
Post #5 of 38
(710 views)
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Hehehehe I must say that all the barrel battle sequence made my jaw fall. When Legolas appears and the pierces the orc head with an arrow and all what he does made me feel like a child at cinema, more more even than with LOTR.
The music at that part is one of the best of 5 movies, and when we had a good battle and the dwarves scape, then the orcs follow them and so Legolas and Tauriel, and the music goes on and it becames crazy!
And having Legolas on the dwarves heads I dont know why but I expected CGI Legolas and when I saw it wasn´t I was really pleased, and at that moment I realized he is wearing the same suit as in LOTR and then I just thougt Oh yeah Legolas, there he is! and then when he mades this dancing thing over one dwarve head and the music is going wild I felt, YEEEEAH! Why not?
Elves are fond to arts and classic dancing could be one of them, using that in combat I think is magnific, Wow dudes I think I´m gonna watch it again
As it has been said being inmortal and fit gives you time enough to be multidisciplined awesome
The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true!
(This post was edited by isaac on Apr 2 2014, 6:37pm)
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Sildarion~Valenar
Bree
Apr 2 2014, 6:36pm
Post #6 of 38
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The only two Legolas action-scenes I found jarring were
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the jumping from head-to-head and the Laketown-raid (with the exception of the Bolg duel, which was rather tasty!  )
Imo, Legolas' exaggerated stunts shows just what DOS is. It never takes itself too seriously, that is it's charm. Unlike the Rock-giants, the barrel-ride is never presented as a serious scene. Which is why Legolas' OTT stunts works with the OTT scene. (which is a positive thing!) - Though as I mentioned above, the head-to-head jump was stretching too far.
And I do dislike the Laketown-raid, as I said in another thread, that it is presented as a serous scene but culminates into OTT. Which is not a nice match.
And in any case, besides these two scenes I find Legolas' stunts to be perfectly plausible as Elvish-abilities. Elves ARE super-humans. Everything a man can do, they can do it two times over. A man jumps upto 2 metres, an Elf can jump to 4. If you know what I mean. 
"War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend."
~ Tolkien lets Faramir speak his own view on war and glory
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Thranderz
Rohan
Apr 2 2014, 7:05pm
Post #7 of 38
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I am the same. I love the barrels sequence. Although I agree DoS is mostly heartless and that sense of gravity isn't there, I still love the fun action sequences!
I simply walked into Mordor.
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Eruvandi
Tol Eressea
Apr 2 2014, 8:02pm
Post #9 of 38
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I don't know why, but I've always been fine with the "ninja" elf thing. IMO, the elves in all the movies, both LOTR and TH have shown a good balance of elegance and ninja-ness. They're elegant when they can be and they're OTT fighters when they have to be. As one of the posters above me said, the elves are supposed to have superhuman ability so what they do will naturally seem OTT to us. I honestly can't think of another way to show this other than what's been done already.
In the case of DOS I enjoyed the vast majority of the elven fight scenes, from the spiders to the barrels to Lake-town to Bolg. If I had to pick a favorite I think it would be the Legolas/Bolg fight. My dad, who ,before he saw DOS, thought the only thing elves did was walk around looking pretty, loved it too! I liked the intensity of it as well as the fact that it wasn't easy for Legolas to win for once. In fact, I really loved the non-verbal communication between him and Bolg after he found out his nose was bleeding:
Legolas (shocked): How is it possible that my nose is bleeding?! *Looks at Bolg* Oh no you didn't!
Bolg: Oh yes I did! You want more, pretty boy? Come and get it!
Legolas: You gonna die for sure now! Get back here!
"So I will call upon Your name
And keep my eyes above the waves
When oceans rise
My soul will rest in Your embrace
For I am Yours and You are mine"
--Hillsong United
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Imladris18
Lorien
Apr 2 2014, 8:41pm
Post #10 of 38
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I dig the "ninja elf" stuff. I don't really see a "ninja" fighting style as much as simply extreme balance and coordination when I watch, but I understand it's simply a term. I encourage naysayers to go watch some street-running/parkour videos of real people, and maybe you'll change your mind about what a fictitious wood elf might possibly be able to do.
To me, the elven fighting style/archery depicted by PJ is just straight elegant.
(This post was edited by Imladris18 on Apr 2 2014, 8:44pm)
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NecromancerRising
Gondor
Apr 2 2014, 8:51pm
Post #12 of 38
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Grace and Elegance are the only 2 words that i can use to describe the Elven fighting style in DOS.We have seen this kind of "dance movement" in the old masterpieces "Crouching Tiger,Hidden Dragon" and the "Flying Daggers"
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Elarie
Grey Havens
Apr 2 2014, 8:53pm
Post #13 of 38
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I thought the "ninja elves" were basically fun
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and I enjoyed it and didn't take it all too seriously. And also, I was just thinking - if I had never seen an olympic gymnast, and then I saw someone doing what they do in a fantasy movie, would I believe it? Probably not, so maybe these depictions of elf warriors aren't as over-the-top as they seem at first glance.
Hop to it, Radagast, we've got dark powers to sleigh.
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Bernhardina
Rohan
Apr 2 2014, 9:15pm
Post #15 of 38
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I am not concerned with this. The only moment I thought it was a bit OTT was when Legolas surfed on an orc, that was like... nope, I am not buying it. And him, standing on the dwarves heads was a bit circus, but hey, the scene was so brilliantly achieved that I am more impressed than concerned! I thought it was really funny when he was trying to keep the balance while using the dwarves heads as stepping stones XD
So yeah, they are ninja but they are sooo cool!
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Darkstone
Immortal
Apr 2 2014, 9:22pm
Post #16 of 38
(614 views)
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"Like water flowing & swirling around the opponent."
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-Paul Shapcott, Stunt Co-Ordinator, describing the Elven fighting style
From Tony Woolf, Consultant: Cultural Fighting Styles, The Fellowhip of the Rings, The Two Towers, The Return of the King:
“I had worked with Peter Jackson before, as a stuntman on Brain Dead - that was a splatstick zombie movie set in the '50s - and I had stunt coordinated Forgotten Silver, which was about the amazing life of Colin McKenzie, the Cecil B. DeMille of silent-era film-making in New Zealand. 'Colin' was actually a product of Peter's imagination and the 'documentary' was a complete hoax. Some people didn't get the joke. Apparently it's still playing on documentary channels around the world!
“Anyway, I happened to know that Peter was intrigued with the idea of exotic fighting styles. When I heard that he would be directing the Lord of the Rings, I suggested that the fighting arts of Middle Earth should be designed from the ground up, in the same way the sets, costumes and props were being developed. The styles should be organic to the different races and cultures, rather than the sort of generic ‘stunt fighting’ that you sometimes see in this sort of movie. That jelled with what he was thinking and it was my entry into the project.
“The research phase for each style began by studying a particular culture; costumes, armour, weapons, background stories, biomechanics, physical capabilities and limitations. We pored over Tolkien's books, of course. There were also lots of meetings with other designers, graphic artists, the director, and others.
“The key was to start from an intimate understanding of the characters, then to figure out where ‘outside influences’ - animal predation and defence techniques, combat tactics, locomotion dynamics, dance and movement styles, and different martial arts traditions could seamlessly combine to create something that made sense for our story. It was a synergistic process.
“I must admit, if I had any favourite among the different styles, it would have to be Elf swordplay. It felt as if we weren’t creating something new, so much as rediscovering something very old. We visualised the Elves training in these amazing temples high up in the mountains or in deep forest glades, totally in harmony with nature. The design process involved a lot of kinaesthetic and proxemic sensing exercises.
“Here's a quote from the ‘Fighting Styles Guidebook’ we produced for continuity reference – ‘The Elves are graceful and fluid beings whose every action is poised, neither stiff nor heavy. Their breathing is centered in the lower abdomen. They are grounded from the waist down, yet light and free from the waist up. As holistic fighters, all of the Elves' senses are fully engaged in combat. Their movements are circular, fluid, evasive and deceptive, employing spiralling deflections that flow into lightning-fast slicing attacks. There is a magical, sleight-of-hand quality to their fighting techniques. They do not always look directly at their enemies in combat, seeming almost to be engaged in a kind of moving meditation.’
“I can tell you that Orlando Bloom was a very enthusiastic Elf and really got into that style, but some of his rapid-fire archery had to be digitally enhanced because humans just can't shoot that fast.
“When we started, there was actually a very deep debate to decide if Aragorn should incorporate Elf stuff into his fighting style. The consensus was that although he's an exceptionally skilled warrior, he's only human, and Elvish swordplay only really works for Elves. I imagine that he would have gleaned something from them, though — maybe some techniques or tactics, maybe more in the nature of emotional focus. The Elves can meditate in the midst of carnage.”
******************************************
A fox passing through the wood on business of his own stopped several minutes and sniffed. "A chicken crossing the road!" he thought. "Well, what next? I have heard of strange doings in this land, but I have seldom heard of a chicken crossing the road! There's something mighty queer behind this." He was quite right, but he never found out any more because he ate it.
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BlackFox
Half-elven
Apr 2 2014, 9:30pm
Post #17 of 38
(586 views)
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Thanks, Darkstone! 
"Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake." - Henry David Thoreau
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Macfeast
Rohan
Apr 2 2014, 9:32pm
Post #18 of 38
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For the elven combat style as a whole, I absolutely think that there should be some grace and otherworldly-ness to it, evoking the feeling that "we've been doing this for thousands of years, and have it down to an art"... but with some of Legolas' antics in DOS, it felt more like... showboating, I guess, if that makes sense? Like a soccer-player dribbling through an entire team two times over just because he could. There's "graceful and otherworldly", and then there's "too much".
To me, it doesn't really matter whether or not Legolas, and elves in general, should be able pull off stunts like these. To me, this is all about how many of these stunts we really need. A few stunts, spaced out over the entire movie, (like what we got during the LOTR-trilogy)? Sure. Extended sequences of absolutely nothing but outrageous stunts? Too much.
The way I see it, it's like the difference between the singular Mirror of Galadriel, and every elf carrying a pocket-Mirror of Galadriel with them. If it's supposed to be special, don't overdo it.
(This post was edited by Macfeast on Apr 2 2014, 9:40pm)
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dormouse
Half-elven
Apr 2 2014, 10:20pm
Post #20 of 38
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One of the problems with Tolkien adaptations before PJ's has always been the Elves. Even discounting the ghastly Hobbit cartoon that turned them into twisted grey frogs, they've always come across as a bit fey and ineffectual. It was hard to see them as fighters. PJ made them elegant and lethal.
I didn't use the word 'ninja' so it doesn't bother me - I know what it means but it doesn't mean anything to me, so I just gloss over it and accept the elves for what they are.
And yes - I thought Legolas' reaction to the nose bleed was really funny.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Apr 2 2014, 10:44pm
Post #21 of 38
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That jars me straight out of LOTR and DOS . The head-hopping I found amusing. But most of all the term Ninja Elves always makes me laugh, probably because re the CGI stuff it's an absolutely accurate description.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Apr 2 2014, 11:18pm
Post #22 of 38
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I do wonder if the rapid-fire over-the-top Legolas river sequence, which hammers away at the abilities of elves, was just PJ going for broke and having fun. But it wouldn't be the first time that while PJ and crew are having fun, cozy in the studios and workshops of New Zealand, that once the end product is outside of that circle the rest of the world is WTF? Case in point, the ever-present bird poo on Radagast, which may start out as a nod to Merlin and all that, but not logical that the stuff stays there forever. PJ may find this fun, but you know if you throw a party just because you want to serve some strange potato chip dip, doesn't mean your guests will love it the way you do.
There's a lot I enjoy about the Legolas fighting sequences, when he first shows up at the river, his knife work, the way he flips his bow around to shoot an orc, his speed. But it's like chocolate ice cream - a little is great, and you can savor it. A great big bowl and you get nauseous (well, I do, anyway).
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Apr 2 2014, 11:56pm
Post #23 of 38
(554 views)
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Terry Notary (Movement Coach)
was a Great gymnast & Worked with
Cirque du Soleil as well!
In Both Cases,
Olympic Level Gymnasts
& Acrobats w/ CdS
do things all the time
to astonish YOU?
In both cases they are very popular.....
Why? because you are always scatching your Head?
Thinking How did they do that?
To Bomby it is No Different
(Bomby was a gynmast in High school)
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HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell
Apr 3 2014, 12:10am
Post #24 of 38
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Can there be too much goblin/orc killing?
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Yes... The Hobbit is a bit more of an action/adventure movie than the hig fantasy of LOTR, and that is fine. The spirit of the book and movies (TH compared to LOTR) should be different.
But there is a problem with the ease in which the protaganists in these films kill Orcs. This is a problem many movies face (aliens, mosterns, zombies, robots, clones, natives, gang members, etc.)... It demeans the terror of the orcs. You never feel that the people in are in danger because the orcs can so easily be killed. The flip side is when an Orc is a great fighter, it seems arbitrary. Again, this is a problem with all genres of action movies, from crime to science fiction.
Obviously, the Elves were better fighters than orcs, and we could argue that 10 elves could take out 100 orcs in a fight. But when 2 elves mow down hundreds of orc soldiers, it just goes into the roll-your-eyes realm.
The only time this worked was when Gimli and Legolas gets into a battle over who can kill the most orcs at Helms Deep and in Pelennor. This was done well and in the context of battle.
Still, some of the greatest heroes were killed by Orcs, and their fierceness is belittled when you turn them into cannon fodder (or Elf fodder).
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Imladris18
Lorien
Apr 3 2014, 12:42am
Post #25 of 38
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Some of my favorite Legolas moments are the more grounded/realistic (Amon Hen, Moria, long range Warg snipes in TTT).
But, I can also watch a full movie of Legolas (and Tauriel, or anyTolkien good guy really) just killing things in various degrees of realism and be thoroghly entertained :)
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